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GuillermoBilletas

More horrible coaching in PA

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I am not sure what the exact details of this really are, but assuming that Verkleeren weighed in much higher than he should have...then, the coaches are right to not allow him to wrestle-off.  Apparently, nobody will really ever know if the coaches told him what he could weigh or not.  With that, other kids on the team shouldn't be penalized for a very nebulous situation.

 

If I am the parent of the kid at 160, and my kid has to suddenly wrestle-off with a world champ because of a screw up by either/both the wrestler in question or the coaches, I am going ballistic.  He is a senior, this is his last shot & he has posted a 30-8 record while competing against top competition.  He may be trying to get a shot at wrestling in college.  Does he then get to wrestle off the 171 lber?  If no, then...why not?  Where does it end?

 

Derek V. is well known entity who will have the opportunity to wrestle almost anywhere in the country.  He also has another year to win his state title.  Zain Retherford was denied the chance to wrestle in the state tournament one year and it didn't seem to negatively affect him.

 

The kid isn't entitled to anything. If he can't defend the 160 spot then it really isn't his spot anyway. Wrestling in the US is really getting soft. A wrestling revival in the states is desperately needed imo.

 

To answer your question, of course he should be able to wrestle off for the 171 pound spot. Why not?

 

If you follow wrestling at the highest levels you would realize this is not uncommon. Back in 2008, the legend Gatsalov lost "his spot" at the trials to a younger wrestler. At the time, Gatsalov was the reigning 4 time World/Olympic Champion (winning in 2004, 2005, 2006 and 2007) and one of the top pound for pound wrestlers in the World. He did far more to solidify his status as "the man" than the high school kid that we're talking about. He wasn't washed up either; he continued his winning ways with his fifth world title the following year in 2009.

 

If a living legend like Gatsalov had to wrestle off for his spot, then so should a HS kid with a 30-8 record.

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If the onus of the situation fall on JV, then the whole "get tough or die wrestle off" mentality doesn't apply.  If you coached HS kids and dealt with the structures of the modern interscholastic sports it isn't that simple.  Not that it shouldn't be, but fact is it isn't.

 

If the coach screwed up, then my heart breaks for JV.

If JV blew it and did his own thing then too bad for him.

 

The world doesn't stop for a selfish kid just because he is a world champ.

If the coach donged it up, he should be examined closely by his school's admin.

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As the parent of the 160 pounder looking to wrestle in college, if your kid can't even hold off the 145 pounder in order to keep his spot, do you really expect much success in college from him?  This not wanting to face challenges to the spot is foreign to me, but from a kid 2 weights down?   If I were the parent, i would be telling my kid to defend his spot.   This is where life lessons are learned, and instead the parent wants to avoid them?    What do you tell the kid when he's up against someone for a job, and he refuses to go to the interview because in HS, he was taught that's not fair, he should be protected from others who seek to take his spot? Is that when he finally learns the lesson?

 

LOL.  The old life lessons argument.  The job interview example takes the cake.  That is so realistic!  People will refuse to compete for a job because of their high school wrestling career...that's magical.  I imagine Cletus' "life lesson" to his son Jared Verkleeren would be "son, if things don't go your way after you screw up, take legal action and blow everything up until you get your way."  Based on your "logic", the 160lb kid should be able to wrestle off at 170 if he loses, correct?  And then it should continue up the line-up, correct?  Everybody should learn a life lesson from this.

 

Cletus, take heed:  "It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak openly and confirm it"

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LOL.  The old life lessons argument.  The job interview example takes the cake.  That is so realistic!  People will refuse to compete for a job because of their high school wrestling career...that's magical.  I imagine Cletus' "life lesson" to his son Jared Verkleeren would be "son, if things don't go your way after you screw up, take legal action and blow everything up until you get your way."  Based on your "logic", the 160lb kid should be able to wrestle off at 170 if he loses, correct?  And then it should continue up the line-up, correct?  Everybody should learn a life lesson from this.

 

Cletus, take heed:  "It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak openly and confirm it"

How did Verkleeren screw up? It seems that you have an issue with wrestle offs, is that correct?

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Today's Pittsburgh Post-Gazette reporting from the court case provides some additional data that suggests that the wrestler contributed to the problem by weighing in at the maximum weight for 152 (156, given the four pound allowance) rather than the minimum weight as he was coached to do, which prevented him from being able to get back down to be eligible at 145.  Just speculation on my part, but this may have factored into the coach's decision not to let him skip wrestling off with his brother at 152 and jump up to wrestle off with the 160 pounder. 

 

Unfortunate situation all around. 

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The coach and the WPIAL committe chairman both admit to misinterpreting the rule. This is ultimately the coaches' fault. You should know the rules, especially before you confirm the accuracy of your interpretation to a questioning wrestler.

 

The worst thing about this situation is the coach not allowing Verkleeren to wrestle off for the spot and his justification: "I just couldn't punish somebody who did nothing wrong". Defending your spot from a challenging wrestler is not being punished. Coaching in the U.S. is getting increasingly worse imo.

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http://triblive.com/sports/hssports/wrestling/10038226-74/verkleeren-tournament-weight

Interesting passage in the article.  I'm guessing this was done by phone.

 

Wisconsin wrestling coach Barry Davis testified he could not comment specifically about Verkleeren's potential recruitment but told the judge he considered it important to watch athletes compete.

“If I didn't see anyone wrestle in a state tournament, odds are I wouldn't recruit them,” Davis testified.

 

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The worst thing about this situation is the coach not allowing Verkleeren to wrestle off for the spot and his justification: "I just couldn't punish somebody who did nothing wrong". Defending your spot from a challenging wrestler is not being punished. Coaching in the U.S. is getting increasingly worse imo.

 

 

The coach did the right thing. Maybe not in your version of reality, but he did what was best for the kids involved. Verklereen weighed in 4 lbs over 152, but you seem to want to abdicate him of any responsibility. Even if his coach didn't relay the correct info about what he could weigh, the onus was on Verkleeren to keep his weight in check. Verkleeren is a world class wrestler. He will rebound and come back and win a state title next year.

 

Coaching isn't getting worse...it's better than ever. You just have a very narrow view of what is considered good coaching.

Edited by tightwaist

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The worst thing about this situation is the coach not allowing Verkleeren to wrestle off for the spot and his justification: "I just couldn't punish somebody who did nothing wrong". Defending your spot from a challenging wrestler is not being punished. Coaching in the U.S. is getting increasingly worse imo.

 

 

The coach did the right thing. Maybe not in your version of reality, but he did what was best for the kids involved. Verklereen weighed in 4 lbs over 152, but you seem to want to abdicate him of any responsibility. Even if his coach didn't relay the correct info about what he could weigh, the onus was on Verkleeren to keep his weight in check. Verkleeren is a world class wrestler. He will rebound and come back and win a state title next year.

 

Coaching isn't getting worse...it's better than ever. You just have a very narrow view of what is considered good coaching.

 

If the coach told him that it was okay for him to weigh a certain weight then Verkleeren was, in fact, keeping his weight in check. At least according to the understanding that his coach gave him. This one's on the coach imo.

 

You still haven't explained why it's a good idea for the coach to disallow Verkleeren from wrestling off for the spot at 160. Why is that "screwing" the kid who is 30-8 on the year? A legend and reigning 4 time World/Olympic champion in Gatsalov had to wrestle off for his spot in the 2008 Olympics. He solidified himself as a force, far more than the 30-8 wrestler that we're talking about. Why should this kid not have to defend his spot? You must have an issue with the concept of wrestle offs it seems.

 

Wrestling is getting increasingly soft in the States. I don't see this same situation happening in the 70s, sad that it's happening now. It's now acceptable to claim someone is being "punished" by having to defend "their" spot! This is laughable.

 

I'd like to know if the 30-8 wrestler complained to his coach about this. If I had any interest in the kid whatsoever as a college coach, I'd definitely want to know that.

 

Btw, from a technical standpoint, I don't see how coaching has gotten better in the past 5 years.

Edited by bigmik

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LOL.  The old life lessons argument.  The job interview example takes the cake.  That is so realistic!  People will refuse to compete for a job because of their high school wrestling career...that's magical.  I imagine Cletus' "life lesson" to his son Jared Verkleeren would be "son, if things don't go your way after you screw up, take legal action and blow everything up until you get your way."  Based on your "logic", the 160lb kid should be able to wrestle off at 170 if he loses, correct?  And then it should continue up the line-up, correct?  Everybody should learn a life lesson from this.

 

Cletus, take heed:  "It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak openly and confirm it"

 

 

Lets just suppose we missed the Red Herring here and concede all you've stated, the question still stands.   How is it the 160 pound kid is being screwed?    

 

Are you capable of explaining why the 160 pound id is being screwed, or are you also one of those who should have kept quite in order to not reveal their ignorance? 

 

This, protect the guy at 160 mentality, from a guy 2 weight classes down,  can't possibly be in line with any of the lessons we all claim to have learned from wrestling.   IS this actually as stated earlier, because he wasn't expecting it?   Or because he only lost 8 matches during the season   Or because he's a senior who wants to go to college?   Is that what this is about?   

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One more thing, yes absolutely the lesson being taught to Valkereen is if someone screws him, don' take it laying down.   Seek justice.

 

Anyone remember Matt Lindland being denied a shot that the Olympics and suing in order to get his due?   And what happened?  He won and eventually captured a silver medal.   Look around tightwaist, if you had any doubt my logic is in play, this is how things are settled in our country.   

 

 

If you ever figure it out, Id like to know how it is the 160 pounder is being screwed.  Perhaps you're absolutely right, but so long as you refuse to explain why it is, how is anyone going to be able to buy into your way of thinking? 

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If the coach is to allow the wrestle off, then it should be at 152. The next weight up. But wait, his brother is at that weight class...so that wouldn't teach him the right "life lesson". Where is the life lesson for the older and heavier brother offering to wrestle his brother? It would be more logical for that to occur. He can then wrestle off at 160. He weighed in 4 lbs over 152 & nobody wants him to face any repurcussions from that. What "life lesson" are you encouraging? "It ain't your fault dude. Sue the school".

 

The coach did the right thing. The judge did the right thing. The Principal is supportive of the coach. He will learn a "life lesson" from this. He will come back stronger next year, probably for another school. Yet, another reason why wrestling is dying at the HS level. Parents shopping their kid around for the best opportunity

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If the coach is to allow the wrestle off, then it should be at 152. The next weight up. But wait, his brother is at that weight class...so that wouldn't teach him the right "life lesson". Where is the life lesson for the older and heavier brother offering to wrestle his brother? It would be more logical for that to occur. He can then wrestle off at 160. He weighed in 4 lbs over 152 & nobody wants him to face any repurcussions from that. What "life lesson" are you encouraging? "It ain't your fault dude. Sue the school".

 

The coach did the right thing. The judge did the right thing. The Principal is supportive of the coach. He will learn a "life lesson" from this. He will come back stronger next year, probably for another school. Yet, another reason why wrestling is dying at the HS level. Parents shopping their kid around for the best opportunity

 

 

Thank you for your efforts in trying to explain why it is unfair for the 160 pounder to have to defend his spot.   Don't feel inadequate, I didn't think you could do it either.   

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The coach has no obligation to have a wrestle off just prior to a qualifying tournament. Some coaches will do it but it his team and his rules. The biggest mistake here is not watching weight and misinforming a kid where his weight can be. It sucks to miss out on state but sh*t happens. The kid will fall on his feet and get plenty of exposure and still get recruited.

Edited by repechange

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One more thing, yes absolutely the lesson being taught to Valkereen is if someone screws him, don' take it laying down.   Seek justice.

 

Anyone remember Matt Lindland being denied a shot that the Olympics and suing in order to get his due?   And what happened?  He won and eventually captured a silver medal.   Look around tightwaist, if you had any doubt my logic is in play, this is how things are settled in our country.   

 

 

Going with Lindland-Sieracki to support your position is probably not the best choice.

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If the coach misinterpreted the rules and that is why he was too high weight wise, then he should have been able to challenge for the 160 lb class. That is what makes wrestling great, well in the US. There are less politics. You beat the wrestler, you get the spot. In team sports I've seen numerous times were a coach will start someone less talented for whatever reason. In wrestling its the best guy gets the spot. I was able to beat a majority if not all the wrestlers on my hs team (depending on if I was cutting weight or not... at 119 the bigger guys probably would have broken me) and even though I could pin our jv guys at will (my team wasnt exactly strong) the coach let them challenge, because it's wrestling. Just settle it on the mat. If it was the wrestlers fault then I could see not letting him challenge though.

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If the coach misinterpreted the rules and that is why he was too high weight wise, then he should have been able to challenge for the 160 lb class. That is what makes wrestling great, well in the US. There are less politics. You beat the wrestler, you get the spot. In team sports I've seen numerous times were a coach will start someone less talented for whatever reason. In wrestling its the best guy gets the spot. I was able to beat a majority if not all the wrestlers on my hs team (depending on if I was cutting weight or not... at 119 the bigger guys probably would have broken me) and even though I could pin our jv guys at will (my team wasnt exactly strong) the coach let them challenge, because it's wrestling. Just settle it on the mat. If it was the wrestlers fault then I could see not letting him challenge though.

 

 

Agreed

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