Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
rwalkowiak1

Different videocamera angle of Dake v. Taylor II

Recommended Posts

Dake locked up very quickly at the end. The call looks better to me from this angle.

 

Nice pics of the crowd.

 

Noticed at ~8:10 Taylor never set on the elbow during the start. And Dake the same at 9:00.

 

I think what appeared to be locked hands from the other view came around 9:10. Not even close.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't have a dog in this fight (no sig bet) so I'm not really motivated to go all Zapruder on this new footage.

 

However, I am a little curious about one thing: does this new video angle shed any light on the alleged Dake full nelson that someone in another thread posted a still of from the wrong side? Or will the full nelson end up being the grassy knoll of this match that conspiracy theorists will simply argue about for years?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dake locked up very quickly at the end. The call looks better to me from this angle.

 

Nice pics of the crowd.

 

Noticed at ~8:10 Taylor never set on the elbow during the start. And Dake the same at 9:00.

 

I think what appeared to be a full nelson from the other view came around 9:10. Not even close.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dake locked up very quickly at the end. The call looks better to me from this angle.

 

Nice pics of the crowd.

 

Noticed at ~8:10 Taylor never set on the elbow during the start. And Dake the same at 9:00.

 

I think what appeared to be locked hands from the other view came around 9:10. Not even close.

 

 

Couldn't edit or delete the other. Anyway- I meant full nelson not locked hands here to answer lightweight.

 

Nobody said everything of Dake was behind Taylor- nor that it needs to be. His upper body was clearly behind DTs upper.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

re: the alleged full nelson

It would take too much time to post the screen shots, but it is pretty clear that KD's left arm is pulling back on DT's left arm and is not applying a full nelson. They go out of the camera shot at the end of the sequence, but notice that both refs are in good position to see what is happening and that the PSU coaches don't make any protest whatsoever at that point even though they too are in pretty good position to see the action.

 

Although I think it was already pretty well established from the screen shots posted on the other thread, I think the reversal is even clearer from this angle.

 

With regard to the non-escape, this video shows how quickly KD got his hands re-locked around DT's leg at the end. I would say DT did not escape control beyond reaction time. However, I think of the three contested points this is the one that is the closest call. After a lot of video review, I think the right call was made, but I could definitely see a different ref calling it the other way. I think you are going to get a ton of protests either way you call it.

 

I've heard a lot of people say the ref should have given 1 at the end and sent it to overtime. But that wouldn't have happened. If he had given the escape to DT, the riding time would have stayed over a minute and the match would have ended with DT as the winner. Either way, someone wins on an incredibly close call. It all comes down to whether or not you think KD lost control beyond reaction time. I think the right call was made, but I don't think it is totally unreasonable to hold a different opinion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

one further thought on the non-escape at the end:

 

Just as a thought experiment, imagine if there had been 20 or 30 seconds left on the clock when this occurred and Dake was able to quickly circle behind. Would those of you arguing that this should have been 1 be okay with the ref then giving Dake a takedown at that point? I can imagine in that scenario a lot of Taylor supporters howling that this wasn't an escape and therefore Dake shouldn't have gotten two more points.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow, my reaction to watching the live video was that Dake did not get the reversal and Taylor did get the escape. Then I watched the replay and thought both calls were very close, close enough to not object. Although I still think each call was close and that the official really had a tough decision to make on both situations I think it's clear from the new angle that Taylor was behind Dake when all four feet left the mat and the circle.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From a Penn State fan:

 

Watching live, I though the reversal was incorrect and the non-escape were questionable.

 

Though both were split second calls, here is my take:

 

1) The reversal was correct. It is obviously a quick and tough call that could go either way, but, Dake has his leg locked in and his arms locked around Taylor's head and arms prior to going out of bounds. Good call by the official.

 

2) The escape all happened so quickly that I can see it being called either way. Immediately after Taylor does his roll, Dake lost his lock on the leg for a brief moment. The official "could" have called and escape at that point. However, it was quick and Dake immediately locked back on the leg and maintained that lock throughout. Either you feel David was free for long enough to get the escape after the roll-through, which would have given Taylor the win, or you feel Dake re-established the lock quick enough to maintain control (which this official did). Could have gone either way, and whichever side didn't get the call was going to complain. After seeing this other angle, I'm not complaining.

 

As for Penn State fans getting upset with Dake's reaction, it was much ado about nothing. After winning the match to a chorus of views, he quickly raised his hands towards the booing crowd in victory celebration. He then stood waiting for the handshake. He gave a quick wave goodbye to the fans who were continuing to boo, before going over and shaking the PSU coaching staff's hands. He then gave a very respectable interview to FLO. Dake is a good kid and great wrestler. Some don't like his style, but, the way I feel is that different wrestlers have different styles. The ultimate goal is winning, and Dake is tough to beat. Taylor and Dake respect each other immensely, it's time the fans give each wrestler the respect they deserve as well.

 

Finally, the all-star match and this scuffle final were chances for the two wrestlers to put together a plan for that one that really matters in March. I'm positive that if you asked Taylor if he would be o.k. losing the first two if it guaranteed him a win in March, he would say a resounding 'Yes !", and Dake would do the same. Now, Dake has a chance to complete the sweep, but, one win by David in the big one would make the other two losses a distant memory. I can't wait to be there in Des Moines to witness it. The atmosphere prior to that match is going to be historic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Just as a thought experiment, imagine if there had been 20 or 30 seconds left on the clock when this occurred and Dake was able to quickly circle behind.

 

 

 

Alyosha, with all due respect, if there is more time left on the clock there is no way Dake is going to even be able to circle around Taylor, at least not from the position he is in at the end. Dake's upper body is being held down to the mat by Taylor and he's hanging on for dear life at the end. We talk about control in the sense of the top wrestler maintaining some form of technical control (the hands locked on the leg) over the bottom wrestler, but then there is actual controlling positions. Of the two wrestlers, it looks to me that Taylor is clearly in the better position there. Ask yourself one question here. If you are wrestling from neutral with no points on the board, which position would you want at the end of this match? Dake's or Taylor's? If anyone says they'd rather be in Dake's position there, I'm going to have a hard time believing that.

 

The only thing I can envision would happen with more time is that in about 1 or 2 seconds Taylor is going to arch his back, pull his hips back, and Dake's grip will yield. Taylor will be out (a 2nd time). If anyone is going to be doing the circling and perhaps gaining points it is Taylor. Just my $0.02.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If there was 20 seconds and Taylor got an escape, Dake would have gotten a takedown.

 

And a pin, right?

 

 

Scribe is right. People who like to go back and attempt to rewrite history by changing one isolated event fail to factor in that it would trigger other changes that would likely result in the same original outcome.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If there was 20 seconds and Taylor got an escape, Dake would have gotten a takedown.

 

And a pin, right?

 

 

Scribe is right. People who like to go back and rewrite history by changing one isolated event fail to factor in that it would trigger other changes that would result in the same original outcome.

 

 

Yes, he is right about that, but, wrong to assume that he knows what would happen in that alternate occurrence.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If there was 20 seconds and Taylor got an escape, Dake would have gotten a takedown.

 

And a pin, right?

 

 

Scribe is right. People who like to go back and attempt to rewrite history by changing one isolated event fail to factor in that it would trigger other changes that would likely result in the same original outcome.

 

 

 

Two simple questions. Obviously, one can never really know with certainty what would have happened, but looking at the relative positions of the two wrestlers at the end of the match and assuming there is another 20 seconds to wrestle:

 

 

1. Which position, Dake's or Taylor's, would you want?

2. Which wrestler, Dake or Taylor, is in a better position to score?

 

 

No one knows for certain, but looking at Dake being gassed and looking at how Taylor is positioned above Dake, I think the answer to both questions isn't Dake, it is Taylor.

 

NCAA's can't come soon enough.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is what I think...

 

This camera angle shows the reversal situation much more clearly, even though it is further away. At full speed on first view on the flo camera, I thought the call was ridiculous. Seeing the same camera replay again and again I though it was not ridiculous, but questionable and a tough call to make. Seeing this angle however, I will upgrade that even more. Honestly I can not argue it anymore. You may be able to find nuances and reasons why it was not a reversal, but given this view I don't think calling it a reversal can be argued legitimately. Good call.

 

The escape is a bit different. It is more of a toss-up call that can go either way. The way these calls go depends on the flow of the match and the situation - i.e the guy working harder to score will usually get the call in this close of a match, especially when at the time the reversal call was fresh in the rear view and questionable. Dake's hand's clearly did break, and then re lock.

 

I don't think the "well if there was 30 seconds and he got the escape and dake got another td...blah blah" argument is valid, its rhetorical hypothetical nonsense. I wont go as far as saying that it was the absolute wrong call...but given the circumstances and flow of the match, I think maybe Taylor should have gotten that call.

 

All-in-all the officiating was nowhere near as awful and terrible as it seemed at first.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

.

Well, at least this video shows how Dake was able to slip in the full-nelson ride without the ref noticing.

 

Apparently he's attended one of Mr. DF's special camps, "Executing Illegal Holds Without Getting Dinged."

Too bad he's retired and such high-level techniques are no longer taught - and rarely seen in competition.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...