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fullnelson

Has anyone ever lost in the pigtails and then get 3rd at NCAAs

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I highly doubt that most people "almost forget" Molinaro's win in the finals because of what happened in the consolation bracket.

Did I say most people?  Damn, out of all I wrote that is what you respond to?  It's like EVERYONE on here is trying their damnedest to argue with me..............

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It's a generic statement. Like saying it's so cold you lose feeling in your toes. In the end you are basically only speaking about your own perception.

 

What I meant was they did their best to make their match more memorable than the championship match. Is that better?

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This is from an older thread on this forum. All of these wrestlers lost their first match and then won seven in a row to finish 3rd, excepting Quisel, who also had to win a consi pigtail match.

 

Quisel holds the record for most wins at a NCAA tourney with 8.)

 

Note that all of the wrestlers that beat the eventual 3rd place finishers finished lower than 3rd. Four did not place at all.

 

 

http://www.thematforums.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=100025&sid=aad36b56090fa6e580d610d77734e8f8&start=80

 

 

1. Marvin Jones 1986 (Jim Bouwman defeated Jones and did not AA)

2. Tom Miller 1992 (Jeff Lyons defeated Miller and finished 5th)

3. John Lange 1998 (David Wells defeated Lange and finished 7th)

4. Larry Quisel 1999 (Corey Wallman defeated Quisel and did not AA. Quisel had a consi pigtail win, too.)

5. JD Bergman 2004 (BJ Padden defeated Bergman and did not AA)

6. Dustin Manotti 2006 (Tony Hook defeated Manotti and did not AA)

7. Don Vinson 2012 (Nick Lester defeated Vinson and finished 8th)

Was Tom Miller from Maryland?

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Yes, Schopp lost in the 1st round to Caleb Richardson who lost his next two matches 3-1 in OT. Schopp then won 7 matches in a row to take 3rd. An interesting stat was that, in doing so, Schopp scored 21 Tournament points outscoring every second place finisher and tying Gabe Dean for 10th in Total Scoring. Obviously, the top 9 where all NCAA Champs.

Is it feasible for someone to place 3rd and score more team points than a champ?

 

Hypo - you lose first match and pin 7 guys to get 3rd - 3.5 advancement points, 14 pin points and 10 points for 3rd. That's 27.5 points.

 

Champ - wins 4 close matches and scores 4 advancement points and 16 for 1st. 20 points total.

 

Do I have this right?

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I remember Molinaro almost falling off the raised mat platform at the Southern Scuffle, not so much his finals match against Ness.

Cam Simaz later fell off the platform twice in his finals match against Cayle Byers.

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Is it feasible for someone to place 3rd and score more team points than a champ?

 

Hypo - you lose first match and pin 7 guys to get 3rd - 3.5 advancement points, 14 pin points and 10 points for 3rd. That's 27.5 points.

 

Champ - wins 4 close matches and scores 4 advancement points and 16 for 1st. 20 points total.

 

Do I have this right?

Yep.  The least a champ can score without being penalized is 20.  4 advancement +16 for first.  Excepting a pigtail match 2nd-5th can score over 20 pts.  19 pts is the best 6th place can do without a pigtail going 5-2 with 5 pins, 2 champ adv. pts., 1 cons. adv. pt(2 wins) and 6 points for 6th.

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Antonio Garay did it for Boston College.

 

Edit: Sorry, I am not sure if it was pig tails or first round.

 

As others I think have mentioned, Antonio lost to Cleveland State in round 1. He then won 6 straight before losing in OT to Trent Hynek of Iowa State, and placing 4th. 'Tone won the Gorrarian that year.

 

Because Antonio was the only AA in the history of my alma mater, Boston College, at this special time of year I'll also pay respect to the many honorable programs like ours, dropped by cowardly Trustees and chickensh*t administrators. 

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Is it feasible for someone to place 3rd and score more team points than a champ?

 

Hypo - you lose first match and pin 7 guys to get 3rd - 3.5 advancement points, 14 pin points and 10 points for 3rd. That's 27.5 points.

 

Champ - wins 4 close matches and scores 4 advancement points and 16 for 1st. 20 points total.

 

Do I have this right?

http://www.pennstatewrestlingclub.org/content/tournament_team_score.php?id=14&type=individual

 

Check out AJ Schopp.

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Everything got worse when

 

1) they bumped 3rd place up from 9 to 10 and closed the distance between 3rd, 2nd and 1st,

2) the pin went from 1 to 2 bonus points,

3) a full wrestleback provided twice as many bonus opportunities for early losers.

 

The "leap frog" is both a scoring problem and unfair to the higher place winner. What happened was the rules committee wanted to give teams with more AA consolation depth a better shot at a team trophy, so they squeezed consolation placement from 9-7-5-3-2-1 to 10-9-7-6-4-3. But in doing so, and also by not increasing the value of 1st and 2nd, the leapfrog became much easier and more frequent.

 

The top four, 16-12-10-9 have over twice the added value of 5th to 8th, 7-6-4-3 or 47:20. In dual meet terms that would assume the top 4 are pinning the bottom 4 AAs.

Anything gained by the rules committee move to increase consy places was erased by 1) 2) and 3)above.

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Everything got worse when

 

1) they bumped 3rd place up from 9 to 10 and closed the distance between 3rd, 2nd and 1st,

2) the pin went from 1 to 2 bonus points,

3) a full wrestleback provided twice as many bonus opportunities for early losers.

 

The "leap frog" is both a scoring problem and unfair to the higher place winner. What happened was the rules committee wanted to give teams with more AA consolation depth a better shot at a team trophy, so they squeezed consolation placement from 9-7-5-3-2-1 to 10-9-7-6-4-3. But in doing so, and also by not increasing the value of 1st and 2nd, the leapfrog became much easier and more frequent.

 

The top four, 16-12-10-9 have over twice the added value of 5th to 8th, 7-6-4-3 or 47:20. In dual meet terms that would assume the top 4 are pinning the bottom 4 AAs.

Anything gained by the rules committee move to increase consy places was erased by 1) 2) and 3)above.

The scoring system should be revised.  Doesn't make much sense that a 7th or 8th place finish could be equaled or outscored by a guy going 2-2 & DNP. 

A pin being worth 2 points is now worth 4 match advancements in the consolations; that isn't really awarding AA consolation depth.

 

Imo, the bonus points for pins/techs/majors in the consolations should be cut in half; at least for the bouts up to the consolation quarters and then full bonus points for the all-american rounds.  That would still reward teams with AA depth.   

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OBjoeB

A complex system is hard to think through. This is obvious from all the inequities and disproportionality such as the one of many you point out. It's probably the most complex inconsistent scoring in existence.

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