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What if Cael had gone to Iowa?

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Cael wouldn't have gone to Iowa and I don't think Iowa wouldn't have wanted him.

 

I think if Cael didn't go to Penn State, Koll would have.

 

It likely would've been Koll.  PSU had settled on him and was putting together its offer when Cael called to inquire about the position.

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My 2 cents:

 

1. Tom Ryan seemed the "adult-in-the-room". Compared to the inflammatory (pandering) and biased language (that's what makes sense, of course, yuk yuk yuk) of the hosts and the one- sided half truths offered up by JRob (see 2) to prop up his views, Ryan appears thoughtful and reasoned. I was impressed.

 

2. An example of a JRob half truth - JRob of course mentioned that PSU wanted to keep all the money. What is missing is that this sounds like a typical home-home agreement: when the BIG teams are all away in year 2 the situation is reversed. Not really outrageous.

 

3. As Ryan pointed out, the situation is more nuanced then BIG teams simply opting out - problems with facilities on short notice being a huge hurdle. The absence of sponsors (due to short time frames) hurts the effort to get teams on-board.

 

4. JRob's belief that the prior year's dual framework is the answer and blaming PSU for its failure? ..... If it had been a success it would have continued regardless of PSUs participation. In point of fact, it was abandoned without reluctance. Ryan seems to have a more pragmatic approach - this year's format has more potential to evolve into a viable, sustainable event. IMHO A successful event will pull participants - compelling participants does not guarantee success.

 

5. Comparing wrestling to football or basketball is apple to orange (pre-Dresser) - comparable models are other individual sports: gymnastics, swimming, track.

 

6. If I'm Cael, I'd stay away from this show - hosts seemed basically hostile. Cael sees the NCAA championship as the main show; the duals championship is a sideshow. I don't see this as a reason to engage in character assignation (greed). Just a different emphasis. If the dual current format takes off it may be leveraged into a four team or more playoff involving conference champions; but in order to do so demand will have to grow from fans, coaches, sponsors and networks. Cael will have to evolve if the growth occurs. First things first; maybe the BIG should devise a way to crown a conference dual champion prior to its coaches obsessing on a national dual champion.

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My 2 cents:

 

1. Tom Ryan seemed the "adult-in-the-room". Compared to the inflammatory (pandering) and biased language (that's what makes sense, of course, yuk yuk yuk) of the hosts and the one- sided half truths offered up by JRob (see 2) to prop up his views, Ryan appears thoughtful and reasoned. I was impressed.

 

2. An example of a JRob half truth - JRob of course mentioned that PSU wanted to keep all the money. What is missing is that this sounds like a typical home-home agreement: when the BIG teams are all away in year 2 the situation is reversed. Not really outrageous.

 

3. As Ryan pointed out, the situation is more nuanced then BIG teams simply opting out - problems with facilities on short notice being a huge hurdle. The absence of sponsors (due to short time frames) hurts the effort to get teams on-board.

 

4. JRob's belief that the prior year's dual framework is the answer and blaming PSU for its failure? ..... If it had been a success it would have continued regardless of PSUs participation. In point of fact, it was abandoned without reluctance. Ryan seems to have a more pragmatic approach - this year's format has more potential to evolve into a viable, sustainable event. IMHO A successful event will pull participants - compelling participants does not guarantee success.

 

5. Comparing wrestling to football or basketball is apple to orange (pre-Dresser) - comparable models are other individual sports: gymnastics, swimming, track.

 

6. If I'm Cael, I'd stay away from this show - hosts seemed basically hostile. Cael sees the NCAA championship as the main show; the duals championship is a sideshow. I don't see this as a reason to engage in character assignation (greed). Just a different emphasis. If the dual current format takes off it may be leveraged into a four team or more playoff involving conference champions; but in order to do so demand will have to grow from fans, coaches, sponsors and networks. Cael will have to evolve if the growth occurs. First things first; maybe the BIG should devise a way to crown a conference dual champion prior to its coaches obsessing on a national dual champion.

 

 

You [pretty much nailed it. The host Scott Casber and his trusty sidekick were outright HOSTILE towards the "Coaches Sanderson". 

 

The pandering was being done by Casber and JRob. 

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Jrob is a straight shooter.

Not a half truth teller.

 

Cael did kill off the National Duals format, successfully.

Best coach in college wrestling but clearly not interested in helping anyone else.

Except Boston University of course, oh wait, that didn't help. 

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he's only on briefly at the end but Missouri's Brian Smith sounds the most reasonable to me. actually everybody sounded pretty reasonable. would be nice to hear from Cael and the 5 B1G coaches who supposedly backed out of the arrangement. 

 

nothing wrong with have dual bowls or whatever but to call it a dual championship is embarrassing. going to be interesting to see how everything 'evolves'. the good news is I don't think it can get any worse (after next year anyway). 

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my 2 cents:

 

2. An example of a JRob half truth - JRob of course mentioned that PSU wanted to keep all the money. What is missing is that this sounds like a typical home-home agreement: when the BIG teams are all away in year 2 the situation is reversed. Not really outrageous.

 

 

 

What's missing are your listening skills.  JRob said that "we wanted revenue sharing" and described how well it has worked to make other sports stronger.  Cael said no.

Edited by jammen

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Jrob is a straight shooter.

Not a half truth teller.

 

Cael did kill off the National Duals format, successfully.

Best coach in college wrestling but clearly not interested in helping anyone else.

Except Boston University of course, oh wait, that didn't help. 

 

 

B.S. 

 

When JRob loudly proclaimed "Cael wanted all the money" that was the quintessential 'half truth'. 

 

If you listened to Tom Ryan he even corrected JRob and Casber on how this was set up. Non Big travel teams got a travel offset of "20K" and the Big10 host teams kept a small profit after paying all the expenses of the event. Next year the roles would be reversed. That is a form of revenue sharing, and it was agreed to by all the Big coaches who participated.

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What's missing are your listening skills.  JRob said that "we wanted revenue sharing" and described how well it has worked to make other sports stronger.  Cael said no.

 

 

Actually, it is YOU who failed to listen, apparently. Tom Ryan corrected the record, but you ignored that. 

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he's only on briefly at the end but Missouri's Brian Smith sounds the most reasonable to me. actually everybody sounded pretty reasonable. would be nice to hear from Cael and the 5 B1G coaches who supposedly backed out of the arrangement. 

 

nothing wrong with have dual bowls or whatever but to call it a dual championship is embarrassing. going to be interesting to see how everything 'evolves'. the good news is I don't think it can get any worse (after next year anyway). 

 

 

Smith was very reasonable. He also had to correct Casber, and I am glad he did so. 

 

Smith "The NCAA wanted to take it over with the points carried over but the coaches voted against that"

 

Smith did not say "but Cael Sanderson voted against that", he said "the coaches voted against that". That means all the coaches had a vote, and as a group the votes went against the points carry over plan. In other words, the whole agenda here not just with this show but with the NWCA "plan" that was debated last year could not carry the majority. 

 

The whole show was a hit piece on Sanderson and Penn State. Pretty laughable. 

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B.S.

 

When JRob loudly proclaimed "Cael wanted all the money" that was the quintessential 'half truth'.

 

If you listened to Tom Ryan he even corrected JRob and Casber on how this was set up. Non Big travel teams got a travel offset of "20K" and the Big10 host teams kept a small profit after paying all the expenses of the event. Next year the roles would be reversed. That is a form of revenue sharing, and it was agreed to by all the Big coaches who participated.

I would trust the future of wrestling with Tom Ryan .... He seems to be a leader who can address disagreements without interpreting them as personal affronts. I also like his optimism regarding the possibilities for improving the format. Ryan seems like a leader who can persuade and influence, not one who tries to bludgeon opponents into submission. I think all the coaches are interested in further wrestling, but Ryan is balanced as well as simply passionate. He seems a good intermediary between Cael's pragmatism and JRob's passion. Edited by swoopdown

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Smith was very reasonable. He also had to correct Casber, and I am glad he did so.

 

Smith "The NCAA wanted to take it over with the points carried over but the coaches voted against that"

The whole show was a hit piece on Sanderson and Penn State. Pretty laughable.

To their credit, Smith and Ryan both redirected and did not allow themselves to be used. Not so JRob (Although it was obvious that at least one of the hosts was trying to lead them all in that direction). Edited by swoopdown

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I would trust the future of wrestling with Tom Ryan .... He seems to be a leader who can address disagreements without interpreting them as personal affronts. I also like his optimism regarding the possibilities for improving the format. Ryan seems like a leader who can persuade and influence, not one who tries to bludgeon opponents into submission. I think all the coaches are interested in further wrestling, but Ryan is balanced as well as simply passionate. He seems a good intermediary between Cael's pragmatism and JRob's passion.

 

 

swoopdown, I pretty much agree with all of the comments you have made after listening to that show. I like what you said about Tom Ryan, and what you said about Brian Smith. The phrase "re directed" to describe how they tried (in vain as it would turn out) to reign in Casber's agenda driven commentary is fitting. Good on you, swoopdown. 

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Actually, it is YOU who failed to listen, apparently. Tom Ryan corrected the record, but you ignored that. 

Well there are different versions of revenue sharing.

Cael doesn't want it the way JRob wants it.

Cael: revenue sharing in that they host/travel opposite years with host schools taking the money

Jrob: wants out and out revenue sharing no matter who hosts

 

Don't wan't to play politics here but PSU/Iowa draw money from events and most schools struggle to do this.  They don't want pure revenue sharing because they draw more fans.  I don't blame them!!  However, don't act the philanthropist.  It is tired, especially from guys that don't have to give anything.  

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Well there are different versions of revenue sharing.

Cael doesn't want it the way JRob wants it.

Cael: revenue sharing in that they host/travel opposite years with host schools taking the money

Jrob: wants out and out revenue sharing no matter who hosts

 

Don't wan't to play politics here but PSU/Iowa draw money from events and most schools struggle to do this. They don't want pure revenue sharing because they draw more fans. I don't blame them!! However, don't act the philanthropist. It is tired, especially from guys that don't have to give anything.

I agree. The Edinboro's and Clarions of the world may not have means to pay huge travel bills or have facilities to host large numbers to highlight and grow the event. It will be interesting how structural issues are resolved.

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B.S. 

 

When JRob loudly proclaimed "Cael wanted all the money" that was the quintessential 'half truth'. 

 

If you listened to Tom Ryan he even corrected JRob and Casber on how this was set up. Non Big travel teams got a travel offset of "20K" and the Big10 host teams kept a small profit after paying all the expenses of the event. Next year the roles would be reversed. That is a form of revenue sharing, and it was agreed to by all the Big coaches who participated.

 

Clean out your ears TBar, no travel offset of 20K mentioned.  Ryan said  at 50:20 mark "assist with travel costs, 50-50 split but with a maximum of 20,000 going to the NWCA divided among the teams that were in it."

 

Dresser on FRL 98 said at the 8:00 mark that it would cost him 32,000 to travel to Michigan. http://www.flowrestling.org/article/39766-frl-archive-dresser-won-t-back-down If I remember correctly he had said elsewhere that he got $5,000 travel voucher from the NWCA.  His concern is that the $27,000 will not be recovered next year when B1G teams drop out again.

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Well there are different versions of revenue sharing.

Cael doesn't want it the way JRob wants it.

Cael: revenue sharing in that they host/travel opposite years with host schools taking the money

Jrob: wants out and out revenue sharing no matter who hosts

 

Don't wan't to play politics here but PSU/Iowa draw money from events and most schools struggle to do this.  They don't want pure revenue sharing because they draw more fans.  I don't blame them!!  However, don't act the philanthropist.  It is tired, especially from guys that don't have to give anything.  

 

 

This post is a lot more reasonable. And you are correct, JRob wants all out revenue sharing while PSU and Iowa prefer a different kind of revenue sharing. Who is to say who is right? It is a matter of both opinion and priorities. 

 

As Casber correctly notes, however, the NWCA is NOT a charity, it is a BUSINESS. If you listened to that, then you know he said it and you know this is accurate. It is a business. It makes money. So part of their business model is to force Penn State and Iowa to do revenue sharing, but only in the manner they proscribe. Hell with what Iowa and Penn State think. 

 

But crazily, Casber also says to Brian Smith "You run your program like a business, right". Well guess what, Iowa and Penn State have to run their programs like a business too. So what this comes down to is who gets to decide how an NCAA wrestling program shares its revenue, the coaches whose job it is to knock that program off come championship time, or the very coaches of the program itself? 

 

Cael isn't telling the NWCA how to run its budget, he is just telling them not to try to run Penn State's budget. The other schools com,e to PSU, they get a travel offset. Penn State goes out to the non Big school next year, they get no more or less. 

 

Keep in mind, if JRob and Casber aren't happy, they can go back to running their event any way they want to run it while Penn State stays home and hosts their own dual, likely with greater fan support and more money that will go into the sport of wrestling, just not while first going thru JRob and the NWCA. 

 

People like JRob and Casber are like the girl that is kinda hot, but also a little self absorbed. You start to date her but you just know it can never last because she will never be happy unless and until she is running your life for you. Casber and JRob have no authority to demand anything of any NCAA coach, but they act as if they do. They can always go back to the way they used to hold this event. No biggie. Penn State can go back to doing what they did too. 

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Clean out your ears TBar, no travel offset of 20K mentioned.  Ryan said  at 50:20 mark "assist with travel costs, 50-50 split but with a maximum of 20,000 going to the NWCA divided among the teams that were in it."

 

Dresser on FRL 98 said at the 8:00 mark that it would cost him 32,000 to travel to Michigan. http://www.flowrestling.org/article/39766-frl-archive-dresser-won-t-back-down If I remember correctly he had said elsewhere that he got $5,000 travel voucher from the NWCA.  His concern is that the $27,000 will not be recovered next year when B1G teams drop out again.

 

 

So next year some Big10 team will pay their way to Va Tech. That is life. Va Tech will then get to keep their own revenue, after costs. Don't act like Va Tech is a financial victim here, they are not. Coach Dresser didn't make his program out to be a financial victim, so don't go there. 

Edited by TBar1977

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Here is the bottom line. The NWCA wants the Penn State fan base (and the Iowa fan base) to pay for everyone else, and to boot to pay the bills for on an event (Natty Duals with point carryover or bracketed multi day National Duals) that our coach believes (and we fans agree with him, btw)  is not in our program's best interests. We'd prefer to put our money into events that we believe are more in the best interests of BOTH Penn State and the sport as a whole. Events like our home duals, our away duals, The Southern Scuffle, Big10's, and NCAA's. 

Edited by TBar1977

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swoopdown, I pretty much agree with all of the comments you have made after listening to that show. I like what you said about Tom Ryan, and what you said about Brian Smith. The phrase "re directed" to describe how they tried (in vain as it would turn out) to reign in Casber's agenda driven commentary is fitting. Good on you, swoopdown.

Thanks - nice to have agreement on occasion. Gives hope to blind squirrels.

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he's only on briefly at the end but Missouri's Brian Smith sounds the most reasonable to me.

Thanks for pointing out Smith ... Because of my abysmal listening skills I hadn't given him credit for his contributions and may have confused him at times with Ryan.

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Thanks for pointing out Smith ... Because of my abysmal listening skills I hadn't given him credit for his contributions and may have confused him at times with Ryan.

 

 

Smith was not on very long, but if you wish to re listen to his comments they come at about the 1 hour 25 minute mark. And Hasek is correct, he is very reasonable. Frankly, the comment he made that sums this up better than any other is this.

 

Coach Smith when prodded a second time to say something negative (when he would not go along with Casber's agenda the first time) 

 

"I'm tired of it" 

 

That sums this up. Even the Federal Government is limited to trying criminal cases but one time when the vote goes against them. They have rules in Congress against the perpetual fillibuster by demagogues as well. JRob lost and he needs to just get over it, because what he allowed to happen on that show was misleading at best, and that is being kind. HE should have never let Casber's agenda driven commentary to stand, but he did. Fortunately Ryan and Smith did a good job of correcting the record. 

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We'd prefer to put our money into events that we believe are more in the best interests of BOTH Penn State and the sport as a whole. Events like our home duals, our away duals, The Southern Scuffle, Big10's, and NCAA's. 

That is where their decision making falls short.

Those interests aren't symbiotic for this event.

 

NWCA isn't about what is best for 1 or 2 schools, for all schools.

PSU and Iowa both proved their own version of the "self absorbed hot girl" this year by not setting up a dual.

Edited by LordNelson

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