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Fixing the Pushout

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The pushout in neutral is problematic for folkstyle because escapes will sometimes occur near the out of bounds line.  It wouldn't be fair if Wrestler A worked for an escape near the boundary, only to be hustled immediately out of bounds by Wrestler B for one point.  If that were the rule, Wrestler A would never try to work for an escape near the boundary line.

 

Here’s a solution: while the wrestlers are in the neutral position, leaving the mat should be worth one point for the opponent, except immediately after an escape.  After an escape, the referee begins a five count.  If the action goes out of bounds before the end of the five count, the match continues in the center with no score.  This should give the escaping wrestler time to circle back in.

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Zebra, great point.

All in all the rule is doing what it is intended to do.

 

I predict at the NCAA's it is going to be talked about a lot in that consistency among the officials is going to be controversial from one match to the next, and coaches will be all over it.

 

We've seen it interpreted differently in different matches all year and the tournament will be no different.

Expect some fireworks.

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Count me as against a folkstyle pushout.  We want to increase action--not pushing.  The next course of action should be to fix top/bottom.  I have no problem with riding when bottom is flat and in danger of being turned.  But there is still too much parallel riding with no other intention than taking time off the clock.  That's not what we want.  Shorten a match to six minutes, have two three minute periods and put the wrestlers back on their feet when nothing is happening in top/bottom and no one is in danger.  No escape awarded.  Also, give three points for a TD when a wrestler attacks a leg and scores and three points for a throw that results in a TD.  Give two points for a defensive/short offense score.  

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No pushout.  The new rule is a sometimes warning and it already encourages some competitors to go Sumo out there (Dieringer against Stanford).  Give a guy a full point for a pushout and you'll just have guys pushing each other off the mat.  

 

Work for consistency in how the current rule is applied.  Give it a few years to let the refs get a feel.  If you can't get that, scrap the rule but don't add the pushout.

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While I like the idea of the pushout and think it is overall a good idea to increase action, the current setup definitely needs tweaked.  Not 100% sure you can fix it but definitely they need to stop calling the stall right after an escape, that is just plain silly. 

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The more rules you add to the book, the more inconsistent the refs will be.  It is not their fault, there are too many things they need to be watching.

 

I would like to see a simplified step out rule.  If both guys are on their feet and engaged, a step out = stalling.  As far as escapes go, they need to give the wrestler a chance to circle back in.  If they don't attempt to bring action to the center, then they should deal with the consequences.

 

The new rule has gone a long way to fixing the HUGE problem college wrestling has had since the rules committee decided stalling should no longer be called.  15 minute matches with 30 restarts because both wrestlers dance to the edge and just back out.  Who wants to watch that type of match.  Does anyone remember the finals in 2014?  I was bored to tears.   I may have fallen asleep during Graff/Ramos.

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No pushout.

 

The object of wrestling is to get your opponent to the mat and turn him for a pin. The pushout is the opposite of this and in no way should be related to what folkstyle wrestling is about. If there is action and someone steps out, they should not be penalized for it. If the pushout rule was adopted do you then take away the chance for back points and pins if the defensive wrestler's body is out of bounds? The problem isn't with rules, its with the application of the rules and the wrestlers who prefer to avoid wrestling and win or lose by a point.

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International pushouts are not compatible with bottom/top riding situations. 

 

BTW, out of bounds by the bottom man should be an automatic escape.

That's a separate issue from neutral.  I don't know what I think about going out of bounds when the wrestlers are in top/bottom.  I can see the logic in giving an escape there, because the top man has more control over where the action goes.  However, if we think of the sport as a martial art, I would prefer not to reward running away while someone has control of you from behind.  That seems like a more advantageous situation for the top man.  I think my preference would be to put the action back in neutral with no point given.  Returning to top and bottom seems alright too, but it encourages both wrestlers to work towards the out of bounds line. 

 

As far as rejecting the pushout, I expect that the current out of bounds rules are going to be modified or scrapped when someone loses a national championship on confusing out of bounds calls.  It might take a few years, it might not.  On the other hand, the pushout is an objective rule that will be called consistently and will keep the action in bounds.

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No pushout.

 

The object of wrestling is to get your opponent to the mat and turn him for a pin. The pushout is the opposite of this and in no way should be related to what folkstyle wrestling is about. If there is action and someone steps out, they should not be penalized for it. If the pushout rule was adopted do you then take away the chance for back points and pins if the defensive wrestler's body is out of bounds? The problem isn't with rules, its with the application of the rules and the wrestlers who prefer to avoid wrestling and win or lose by a point.

Freestyle pushouts are scored on continuation out of bounds -- if it would be a takedown in bounds, it's a takedown out of bounds.  (Actually, they are much more liberal about awarding takedowns going out of bounds.)

 

You have three basic options: wrestle in a cage, wrestle with a clear out of bounds line, or wrestle with a murky out of bounds line. I prefer not to have murky rules, like the current system.

 

Cages cost roughly the same as mats at this point.  There would be obvious issues with cages as well (grabbing the fence, using the fence to prevent pins, etc.)  

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That would be a disaster.  Most wrestlers would do nothing but stare at each other, in fear of putting themselves out of position and going down by three points.

Yea ok.

Cuz' no one wants to or intends to wrestle to win anymore.

Here is a list of guys that wrestled "not to lose" that won anything:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

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You forgot Chris Perry, Tony Nelson, Jesse Delgado, Jason Tsirtsis, and many more.

 

Yea ok.

Cuz' no one wants to or intends to wrestle to win anymore.

Here is a list of guys that wrestled "not to lose" that won anything:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

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You forgot Chris Perry, Tony Nelson, Jesse Delgado, Jason Tsirtsis, and many more.

How many of those guys scored less TDs than their opponents?  It has happened but it is exceedingly rare.  My point is that their opponents were not running around taking shots while they stalled.  Their opponents usually did less than they did in matches.  The difference being the opponents lost so nobody resented them for it.  If Tony Nelson parallel rode his way to 8th place nobody would have cared.  But because Tony Nelson won a lot (as much as any heavyweight in history), it is his fault that he and his opponent didn't do enough to create an aesthetically pleasing match.  

 

Push-out rules would not have changed the outcome of Nelson's matches.  He was just better at wrestling than his opponents.  Same with Delgado, Perry, Tsirtsis, and many more.  Not to mention Perry's senior year at the NCAA he went 8-0, 11-3, 4-0, 3-2 TB1, and 4-0 over Andrew Howe.  

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You forgot Chris Perry, Tony Nelson, Jesse Delgado, Jason Tsirtsis, and many more.

Chris Perry:

Must not have hit a fireman's carry on Howe I guess

 

Tony Nelson: 

No sweep singles for him

 

Jesse Delgado:

Didn't finish his own shot against Garrett in the 2nd period

 

Tsirtsis:

Never finished his underhook single on Kindig 

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