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Stalling

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With all the talk about constantly altering the rules, or convincing the refs to call stalling effectively, or even shortening the season, The only real way to make the sport of wrestling more entertaining is for the coaches and athletes to take it upon themselves to put points on the board.  Youth and H.S. wrestlers watching Taylor, Burroughs, iMar, Nolf, Palacio, Ness, etc. does more good for us fans than a "perfect" set of rules ever could.  This is why I am so impressed with coaches at all levels who emphasis technical expertise, enjoyment, and action, and let the Ws come as a result, rather than game the rules to come out with an endless string of close decisions.  If you are a coach at any level, as many of us are, please realize that your strategic emphasis on entertaining wrestling effects a whole lot more than your personal record.  Let it fly.

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THIS^^^

So completely true.

Talking with a HOF friend we were saying how true this is. It is CONFIDENCE that makes kids aggressive. The only place it comes from is attacking attacking attacking and learning MANY attacks are better, for success, than one or two a match. And it is sooooo much more fun as a competitor. IF you ever become a constant attacker you can't go back. You make things easier and have too much fun getting after it.

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I agree 100%, especially as they are learning.  I coach in a youth club and we always tell our kids, "Score the next points".  Too many people are WAY too concerned about winning and losing when they are young.  Don't get me wrong, we are there to win but we put a LOT of focus on technique and mental training.  Nobody remembers or even cares how many state championships you won as a kid.  People do remember and care about what you did in high school.  Train to be technically proficient, mentally tough and a "goer" when young and everything else will take care of itself when you get older, especially if you are a late bloomer physically.  When the physical attributes start leveling out, things change.  And we have some great examples of kids from our club in just the past few years:

 

KM - 1x youth champ, 4x state champ in high school, D1 wrestler

KB - 2x youth champ, 3x state champ in high school (4x Finalist), D1 wrestler

CB - HIghest finish was 4th in youth, 3x state champ in high school, D1 wrestler

DG - Highest finish was 4th in youth, State Champ in high school, D1 wrestler 

CR - Never placed at youth state (not sure he ever won a match at youth state), 1x State Champ (2x finalist) in high school, Track in college

 

Every one of those kids was a goer and so much fun to watch.

 

Now, to be fair, we have also had a couple of kids that were studs when young and that carried right on through high school and on to college but they have been fewer than the others.

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NCAA Tournament scoring has a HUGE emphasis on bonus points.  The coaches that figure this out win more.  Hopefully that has a big impact on recruiting/development/match tactics.  I would not be against an even greater emphasis on bonus points, or even a step between a decision and a major decision.  A small bonus for 4 point wins would encourage the wrestler with a 1-2 point lead to keep wrestling instead of shutting it down because he's too far away from +8.  

 

This is essentially what the UFC does with knockout and Fight of the Night bonuses many times exceeding the actual purse.  They incentivize risk taking.  I think this is far more effective than penalizing lack of risk taking (stalling).  

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No matter how many "goers" D1 can produce, there will always be the Alex T-shirts and Delgados of the world to slow down the sport. Stalling is in the rules to prevent this from being a winning strategy, but it isn't enforced at all at the NCAA tournament. We either need to fix the refs or fix the rules, because you cannot fix all of the athletes. 

The people who think that the problem lays with "lazy" athletes (or however you want to put it) baffle me. The problem is very clearly with the rules/officials. 

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No matter how many "goers" D1 can produce, there will always be the Alex T-shirts and Delgados of the world to slow down the sport. Stalling is in the rules to prevent this from being a winning strategy, but it isn't enforced at all at the NCAA tournament. We either need to fix the refs or fix the rules, because you cannot fix all of the athletes. 

 

The people who think that the problem lays with "lazy" athletes (or however you want to put it) baffle me. The problem is very clearly with the rules/officials. 

this isn't totally accurate.........

I haven't seen the "lazy" athlete thing and I certainly wasn't saying anything like that.

The problem is what goies on in the heads of wrestlers, imo.

As a coach more than once I sat wrestlers who refused to "get after it" Next time out they got aggressive. Kids will go if pushed to do so. Once I told a kid..... "you look like you are dancing with your sister at prom and don't wanna hurt her" His folks said that was all the motivation he needed to get aggressive.... lol. And he DID wrestle aggressively from then on.

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No matter how many "goers" D1 can produce, there will always be the Alex T-shirts and Delgados of the world to slow down the sport. Stalling is in the rules to prevent this from being a winning strategy, but it isn't enforced at all at the NCAA tournament. We either need to fix the refs or fix the rules, because you cannot fix all of the athletes. 

 

The people who think that the problem lays with "lazy" athletes (or however you want to put it) baffle me. The problem is very clearly with the rules/officials. 

 

Anyone who calls a college wrestler lazy is out of touch with reality.  On the flip-side, I'm definitely not arguing against changing the rules at all, or blaming the wrestlers for matches being "boring".  In fact, I argue for getting rid of ridding time and escape points, etc., pretty adamantly whenever I get the chance.  I personally enjoy watching a tactical master consistently find a way to outmaneuver the field...but I think we all agree that it isn't the best spectator product we can put out there.  My point here is that this is something that we can effect change in on our ends all the time with a change in the culture of the sport.  if we as coaches and wrestlers are saying we would train and compete differently if the rules incentivized scoring more / discouraged stalling more, then we aren't going to see a really substantive change, no matter how we tweak things, IMHO.  And we don't need to "fix" all of the athletes and coaches to improve wrestling, because every single one that the message gets through to improves the sport.

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this isn't totally accurate.........

I haven't seen the "lazy" athlete thing and I certainly wasn't saying anything like that.

The problem is what goies on in the heads of wrestlers, imo.

As a coach more than once I sat wrestlers who refused to "get after it" Next time out they got aggressive. Kids will go if pushed to do so. Once I told a kid..... "you look like you are dancing with your sister at prom and don't wanna hurt her" His folks said that was all the motivation he needed to get aggressive.... lol. And he DID wrestle aggressively from then on.

 

Yep.  A lot of coaches are content with guys getting a lackadaisical win, and too often scold a young wrestler who gets off the mat with a L after trying something they haven't done in a match before and are not completely comfortable with yet.

 

Did David Taylor stall against Kyle Dake and Bubba, but turn it up against everybody else?

 

 

Did I miss a David Taylor match against either of these guys that wasn't action packed and exciting, because Taylor wasn't bringing the heat even if he lost???

 

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There is a big problem in the U.S. of fans constantly calling for wrestlers to "get after it" or to become a "goer", even if this means putting technical proficiency in the back seat. Too many fans often make aggressive wrestling the goal of the sport. Technique is severely devalued. 4 time NCAA champion Logan Stieber just released a series of technique videos and I hardly heard a peep about it. I'm guessing the same was true for many others. There was a lot more buzz in the American wrestling world for a few wrestling documentaries and podcasts that ultimately end up being meaningless in the long run. The current system in place which causes things like this to happen, needs to be changed.

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Yep. A lot of coaches are content with guys getting a lackadaisical win, and too often scold a young wrestler who gets off the mat with a L after trying something they haven't done in a match before and are not completely comfortable with yet.

 

 

 

 

 

Did I miss a David Taylor match against either of these guys that wasn't action packed and exciting, because Taylor wasn't bringing the heat even if he lost???

 

What "heat" did Taylor bring in his last match against Dake? Or in his NCAA final against Dake outside of the first takedown? Edited by bigmik

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Anyone who calls a college wrestler lazy is out of touch with reality.  On the flip-side, I'm definitely not arguing against changing the rules at all, or blaming the wrestlers for matches being "boring".  In fact, I argue for getting rid of ridding time and escape points, etc., pretty adamantly whenever I get the chance.  I personally enjoy watching a tactical master consistently find a way to outmaneuver the field...but I think we all agree that it isn't the best spectator product we can put out there.  My point here is that this is something that we can effect change in on our ends all the time with a change in the culture of the sport.  if we as coaches and wrestlers are saying we would train and compete differently if the rules incentivized scoring more / discouraged stalling more, then we aren't going to see a really substantive change, no matter how we tweak things, IMHO.  And we don't need to "fix" all of the athletes and coaches to improve wrestling, because every single one that the message gets through to improves the sport.

 

I think a good case can be made for eliminating escape points. That topic deserves a separate thread imo.

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I don't get your point about the Taylor / Dake at all.  Those were great matches, and I do think that Taylor was trying to score the whole time.  There is no way that rule changes would have made either of those matches any more dynamic, however if Taylor had been uber conservative, they probably would have just stood there looking at eachother and interlocking fingers the whole 7 minutes.

 

The arguments about rule changes to increase action have a myriad of threads, including the "Fixing the Pushout" one right now.  I made this thread specifically to address the other end of the equation.

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I was being a bit facetious about the relatively low scores from Taylor and I wasn't referencing the original post.  I thought those were exciting matches as well.  There are some who will argue DT > Dake. It feels like a lot of their argument is that he has very effective offense against all but a few and he attacks all of the time.  Dake takes a very different approach, but is in my view the better wrestler.  By most  definitions, he stalled nearly half of their finals match away -- much to the enjoyment of most everybody watching.  Defense can beat offense in a match.

Effective defense minimizes attacks and potential action, so if we want to increase action we should take away the ability to defend.  

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No matter how many "goers" D1 can produce, there will always be the Alex T-shirts and Delgados of the world to slow down the sport. Stalling is in the rules to prevent this from being a winning strategy, but it isn't enforced at all at the NCAA tournament. We either need to fix the refs or fix the rules, because you cannot fix all of the athletes. 

 

The people who think that the problem lays with "lazy" athletes (or however you want to put it) baffle me. The problem is very clearly with the rules/officials. 

It seems many refs have never actually read the rules in regards to stalling; same with the new rules in regards to going out of bounds in the neutral position - detailed descriptions released, videos released and refs continually make calls against both of those.

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this isn't totally accurate.........

I haven't seen the "lazy" athlete thing and I certainly wasn't saying anything like that.

The problem is what goies on in the heads of wrestlers, imo.

 

 

In my post you can substitute "lazy" for whatever you just said. Blaming the athletes is ridiculous; they're playing a game and trying to win under the rules of the game. 

 

Please recall 2-3 years ago, when during the overtime tiebreakers the top wrestler could just drop onto a leg and buy a free stalemate. That was boring to watch, so they changed the rules to make that stalling. The wrestlers who did  this weren't poorly coached, out of shape, or not mentally tough enough, they just wanted to win and used the rules to their advantage. 

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 By most  definitions, he stalled nearly half of their finals match away -- much to the enjoyment of most everybody watching.  Defense can beat offense in a match.

Effective defense minimizes attacks and potential action, so if we want to increase action we should take away the ability to defend.  

 

Defense =/= stalling.  Dake was stalling and got hit for it, but not because he had good defense and position.  

Edited by GranbyTroll

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In my post you can substitute "lazy" for whatever you just said. Blaming the athletes is ridiculous; they're playing a game and trying to win under the rules of the game. 

 

Please recall 2-3 years ago, when during the overtime tiebreakers the top wrestler could just drop onto a leg and buy a free stalemate. That was boring to watch, so they changed the rules to make that stalling. The wrestlers who did  this weren't poorly coached, out of shape, or not mentally tough enough, they just wanted to win and used the rules to their advantage. 

um..... IMO this is "horsechit"...... They changed the rule so that ref's HAD to call it. It was ALWAYS stalling. If it were being called anywhere near correct (with wrestlers wrestling in that manner) wrestlers would be stalled out of matches or change.

I got a call from a ref last night. He calls stalling. The night before the tournament the head ref held a meeting saying he wanted everyone to call "stalemate" when wrestlers were backed up to the out of bounds line. My buddy said........"that is bullchit and I won't call it like that" Why would we do that?" The head ref said OUTLOUD........ "I don't want to penalize someone and influence the match"........

THIS has been the problem for YEARS...... The ref's are NOT calling the book as it is written. That is exactly why the stalling rules keep changing......... trying to FORCE the refs to call stalling..... *) 80-85% of stalemates should result in stalling calls........ if you aren't trying to improve your position.....you are STALLING.

BTW...... he called stalling all tournament long ....coaches were THANKING him during and after the tournament.

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