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fullnelson

Please, please change/make this rule

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When a wrestler rolls to his back and stays there to counter a single leg (hoping for a stalemate), the referee should start a count (if the wrestler is in criteria of shoulder exposure) verbally, like the count for grabbing a single leg by the top guy. If he can't/won't let go and get off his back, then after a 4 count, points are awarded for a TD and back points.

 Scrambling is fine but the scenario I described is happening too often, and it's killing our sport, at least in freestyle. It defies the purpose of our sport; these wrestlers are going to their backs with NO penalty, and half the time they can't move (only waiting for the stalemate). It would not be hard to implement.

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How is it killing our sport in freestyle?  In freestyle it's 2 points for exposure, no need for a count.  The guys using funk in folk are simply taking advantage of the rules as they are written and I see no issue with that.  Yes, the guys who are able to make the transition to freestyle the fastest, Stieber, Burroughs, Snyder, Metcalf, Sanderson, etc., were guys who rarely utilized funk defense, instead sticking to traditional sprawls and square hips.  But no one can deny that funk has brought about some fantastic scrambling in folk.  It's certainly not killing our sport.  

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If anything they should hit the guy with a stall call.

i'd agree with that, but only if the guy repeatedly goes to funk and rarely of ever looks to score from that position.  i could see warning with the first stalemate and a stall call on subsequent stalemates initiated by the same wrestler.

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  I know that Freestyle coaches like Zeke Jones and Bruce Burnett, among others, see it as developing bad habits. Several times at the Big 10's, guys would grab a leg and hold it on their back; I like some of the 'spaghetti wrestling', but when you are stuck in a position where you are on your back, there should be consequences. No wrestler should be allowed to stay on his back to defend.

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  I know that Freestyle coaches like Zeke Jones and Bruce Burnett, among others, see it as developing bad habits. Several times at the Big 10's, guys would grab a leg and hold it on their back; I like some of the 'spaghetti wrestling', but when you are stuck in a position where you are on your back, there should be consequences. No wrestler should be allowed to stay on his back to defend.

Except by the rules they can.

Just because Nolf didn't win doesn't mean that the rules need to be changed.

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If anything they should hit the guy with a stall call.

Yes, it would be refreshing for refs to enforce the stall rules as written, namely, "continue wrestling in an attempt to secure a takedown, regardless of the time or score of the match."

 

Not that every ankle roll is automatic stalling but the repeated dropping to an ankle and hanging on should be penalized. 

Edit:  and the ref should be watching the wrestler's shoulders, some ankle rollers are literally pinning themselves.

Edited by OBJoeB

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When a wrestler rolls to his back and stays there to counter a single leg (hoping for a stalemate), the referee should start a count (if the wrestler is in criteria of shoulder exposure) verbally, like the count for grabbing a single leg by the top guy. If he can't/won't let go and get off his back, then after a 4 count, points are awarded for a TD and back points.

 Scrambling is fine but the scenario I described is happening too often, and it's killing our sport, at least in freestyle. It defies the purpose of our sport; these wrestlers are going to their backs with NO penalty, and half the time they can't move (only waiting for the stalemate). It would not be hard to implement.

NO..

If you really think this out.. this would be a terrible thing for Folk Style wrestling.

The conversation to just 'give away' points is bad.  Wrestlers take risks rolling through... if we gave points away, no one would take any risks.

 

The 'scramble' has become one of the MOST exciting aspects of wrestling.  Why would you want to remove it.??

When 'diving' to the ankle becomes a "repetitive" method of 'creating a stalemate' then it should be called for stalling.

 

We've already implemented that EVERY drop down below the waist is stalling... and after watching this past season, it is very evident that this is NOT true..... but yet, we have the rule (and we keep adding exceptions to the drop down almost weekly).

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NO..

If you really think this out.. this would be a terrible thing for Folk Style wrestling.

The conversation to just 'give away' points is bad.  Wrestlers take risks rolling through... if we gave points away, no one would take any risks.

 

The 'scramble' has become one of the MOST exciting aspects of wrestling.  Why would you want to remove it.??

When 'diving' to the ankle becomes a "repetitive" method of 'creating a stalemate' then it should be called for stalling.

 

We've already implemented that EVERY drop down below the waist is stalling... and after watching this past season, it is very evident that this is NOT true..... but yet, we have the rule (and we keep adding exceptions to the drop down almost weekly).

Bold - that is a major problem with the refs - they don't actually enforce the stall rules as written and that has resulted in the construction of new rules about stalling - the new going out of bounds rules & and the drop down rule you stated - situations that could already be labeled stalling. 

 

 

 

An example from the same match - Martinez getting called for stalling and coach Perry's confusion as he was thinking the ref was enforcing the new out of bounds rule even though both wrestlers weren't out of bounds.  The ref gave Martinez the warning because he wouldn't circle back towards the center & was staying outside the wrestling area.  The rules stay that is stalling but the refs rarely call it outside of late in the 3rd period or blatantly avoiding the other wrestler (which is also usually late in the 3rd).

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Also, the new out of bounds rule conflicts with existing stalling rules. 

Currently in the rules about stalling:

"The basic intent of Rule 5.9.2 is to ensure that both wrestlers are making an honest attempt to wrestle near the center of the mat.

At the same time, the rule is not intended to punish a wrestler for moving to set up the opponent and to get out of a tie-up; however, the repeated movement away from the opponent without attempting a takedown is stalling."

 

As that rule is written, it isn't necessarily stalling when a wrestler backs up to defend a tie up.  Yet with the out of bounds rule that is/could be stalling because of where the action takes place on the mat.  Furthermore, the wrestler trying to secure the tieup could be called for stalling because the ref construes his actions as intentionally driving his opponent off the mat as opposed to attempting to secure a tieup. 

 

So, which overrules the other? How is that intent determined? 

A wrestler can break/defend an over & under tie by backing up if in the/near the center but not if he is near the edge?

 

Or how about when wrestler A is securing an underhook on wrestler B & wrestler B is on the edge of the mat. Wrestler A lifts up his underhook and drops for a single leg attempt, the action results in them going out of bounds. 

Would think the call would be "wrestling action, no stall call" except in one of the duals B1G network aired the ref called the offensive wrestler for stalling, stating he pushed the other guy out.  Guess, he was too effective with his underhook setup, sent the other guy stumbling, or look at it as his opponent was rewarded for having poor balance.

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NO..

If you really think this out.. this would be a terrible thing for Folk Style wrestling.

The conversation to just 'give away' points is bad.  Wrestlers take risks rolling through... if we gave points away, no one would take any risks.

 

The 'scramble' has become one of the MOST exciting aspects of wrestling.  Why would you want to remove it.??

When 'diving' to the ankle becomes a "repetitive" method of 'creating a stalemate' then it should be called for stalling.

 

We've already implemented that EVERY drop down below the waist is stalling... and after watching this past season, it is very evident that this is NOT true..... but yet, we have the rule (and we keep adding exceptions to the drop down almost weekly).

 

 

Scrambling wouldn't be removed at all.

 

I believe the thread starter is talking about situations where a defensive wrestler grabs an ankle and is unsuccessful at trying to roll through to his side or stomach and gets stuck on his back while holding the ankle. If you can't successfully roll through, you are being held to your back. It is the offensive wrestler's legs and posture that are holding you on your back and preventing you from moving one way or the other. When that happens why shouldn't there be some sort of count? You can't call stalling because the defensive wrestler is not stalling. He's attempting to turn either way with the ankle but he simply can't. At this point, why shouldn't he be considered to be in a dangerous position?

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If anything they should hit the guy with a stall call.

EXACTLY.... When a wrestler STOPS wrestling and simply hold to get a stalemate .........it is freaking stalling.... and the refs calling it a stalemate should NEVER ref important tournaments.

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fullnelson, on 07 Mar 2016 - 9:55 PM, said:

When a wrestler rolls to his back and stays there to counter a single leg (hoping for a stalemate), the referee should start a count (if the wrestler is in criteria of shoulder exposure) verbally, like the count for grabbing a single leg by the top guy. If he can't/won't let go and get off his back, then after a 4 count, points are awarded for a TD and back points.

 Scrambling is fine but the scenario I described is happening too often, and it's killing our sport, at least in freestyle. It defies the purpose of our sport; these wrestlers are going to their backs with NO penalty, and half the time they can't move (only waiting for the stalemate). It would not be hard to implement.

 

NO..

If you really think this out.. this would be a terrible thing for Folk Style wrestling.

The conversation to just 'give away' points is bad.  Wrestlers take risks rolling through... if we gave points away, no one would take any risks.

 

The 'scramble' has become one of the MOST exciting aspects of wrestling.  Why would you want to remove it.??

When 'diving' to the ankle becomes a "repetitive" method of 'creating a stalemate' then it should be called for stalling.

 

We've already implemented that EVERY drop down below the waist is stalling... and after watching this past season, it is very evident that this is NOT true..... but yet, we have the rule (and we keep adding exceptions to the drop down almost weekly).

 

Perhaps he is just not going far enough with this.  ;_:

 

Further modification: if wrestler A shoots a single and wrestler B throws in a whizzer the ref should start counting, if wrestler B has initiated no action with the whizzer within a 4 count then A shall be awarded 2 points (same as 2 swipe back) ref shall continue to count, if another 4 count with no offense from the whizzer position then A is awarded 4 (back) points.

 

Likewise lets say A shoots a single leg and out the back door and elevate and B (lets call him Nolf) just hangs upside down knees clamped on A's head and initiates no offense from his move then the ref shall begin the count to award 2 and then 4 points.

 

In fact lets say A shoots a double leg with arms outstretched and B simple does a double underhook, this is a stalling defensive move to stop the offense, A should be awarded 2 points on first occurrence and 4 the second time.

 

Lets simply remove all counter/defensive moves, from now on there shall be no counters on offense.  In fact, like random drug test, we can have the NCAA do random counter instruction checks by showing up unannounced at D1 practices, if a couch is caught teaching a counter to any offense move, said programs shall lose 2 scholarships for 2 years.

 

At the same time, we should raise the TF point spread to 50, else matches will be too short and not enough time to enjoy all the offense.

 

Well we are really just killing time waiting for those darn brackets, now back to the regularly scheduled programming.  ;)

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terrible idea

College wrestling has gotten to the point where I can barely stand to watch it and I have wrestled most of my life. How is wrestling supposed to bring in fans when they have to watch a 1-1 match go to double OT and ride outs? Riding is awful, riding parallel with no chance to turn, oh the excitement. Big 10 finals was a perfect example.

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I agree with Hammerlock.  Terrible idea.    If you don't like folkstyle don't watch, but why push to convert folk to free when many fans prefer watching folk?  Right now, you can choose to watch one or the other.  Everyone wins.    

Fans don't necessarily prefer folk over free...its just what they are accustomed too and what the schools do. Its familiar.  I think its a bad idea too though.  Folkstyle is the way it is.  It has adapted to where it is.  A few rules changes: yes of course. Like always.  But, wrestlers need to learn better finishes and cleaner finishes from great set-ups.  My one rules change is toss stalling.  It just forces our wrestlers to shoot at the first chance they get and it turns into a race for shots.  But most wrestlers shots need great set-ups to get into great position.  We are very rushed in our style and our race to get off a lot of shots has created the habit of getting ahold a leg and working up into good position, which other countries feast on.  Except on a few of our brightest of course.  I'd rather see less shots but more good setups and better shots and finishes. Creating action doesn't always force great technique.  

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College wrestling has gotten to the point where I can barely stand to watch it and I have wrestled most of my life. How is wrestling supposed to bring in fans when they have to watch a 1-1 match go to double OT and ride outs? Riding is awful, riding parallel with no chance to turn, oh the excitement. Big 10 finals was a perfect example.

The match you described is allowed to happen because referees are so fearful to call stalling during a match.  Wrestlers know the refs are timid, so some will try to get away with doing next to nothing.  That is on the refs, athletes will attempt to use the rules to their advantage - look at football and how teams will run the clock down before hiking the ball, basketball times will run down the shot clock, they'd be running off more time if the rules allowed it - wrestling's version of that is the referee recognizing and calling stalling. 

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Guys all sports have bad matchups.  I watch some football games that stink.  I watch some MMA and boxing matches that stink.  You know what?  When that happens, I don't complain about how bored I was and how the sport needs to change.  I don't pretend to remember a golden time when every Sunday had the best football games or saturday nights had the most epic boxing/mma matches.  I realize that not every contest can be the best ever.  When it is the best ever, I get excited and am thankful I was able to see it.  Baseball has a fraction of the action wrestling does and people tune it and pack stadiums.

 

I have been watching wrestling for 3 decades now, not including my time competing in college.  As a fan, there was NEVER a time in the last 3 decades that I can remember when every match was exciting.  You guys are hopelessly nostalgic claiming otherwise or remember a time when maybe you were more personally invested in the outcomes.       

 

This season has been great.  I have watched some very exciting matches both individually and by teams.  New stalling rules have been a bit confusing but on the whole there has been less wrestling on the edge which was a big complaint.  That seems to be working itself out.  As for riding time, that could use a tweak perhaps, and you may be right that stalemates needs to be called differently in relation to stalling, but on the whole, the product is pretty good.  There is no reason to toss it or change it to freestyle.  There is no evidence fans like freestyle more, and arguing that people don't know what they like is ridiculous.  

 

I have enjoyed following this season.  I really don't know what all the complaints are about.  If you want greater exposure to the public to grow the sport, fight against the majority of the content being behind paywalls.  No matter what rule changes you institute, if people can't watch it on TV, it doesn't matter.  

Edited by ironmonkey

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Guys all sports have bad matchups.  I watch some football games that stink.  I watch some MMA and boxing matches that stink.  You know what?  When that happens, I don't complain about how bored I was and how the sport needs to change.  I don't pretend to remember a golden time when every Sunday had the best football games or saturday nights had the most epic boxing/mma matches.  I realize that not every contest can be the best ever.  When it is the best ever, I get excited and am thankful I was able to see it.  Baseball has a fraction of the action wrestling does and people tune it and pack stadiums.

 

I have been watching wrestling for 3 decades now, not including my time competing in college.  As a fan, there was NEVER a time in the last 3 decades that I can remember when every match was exciting.  You guys are hopelessly nostalgic claiming otherwise or remember a time when maybe you were more personally invested in the outcomes.       

 

This season has been great.  I have watched some very exciting matches both individually and by teams.  New stalling rules have been a bit confusing but on the whole there has been less wrestling on the edge which was a big complaint.  That seems to be working itself out.  As for riding time, that could use a tweak perhaps, and you may be right that stalemates needs to be called differently in relation to stalling, but on the whole, the product is pretty good.  There is no reason to toss it or change it to freestyle.  There is no evidence fans like freestyle more, and arguing that people don't know what they like is ridiculous.  

 

I have enjoyed following this season.  I really don't know what all the complaints are about.  If you want greater exposure to the public to grow the sport, fight against the majority of the content being behind paywalls.  No matter what rule changes you institute, if people can't watch it on TV, it doesn't matter.  

of course not every match was balls to the wall.......... but I know nearly every teammate I had in college was of the mindset to PIN their opponent when they stepped on the mat. I can think of 2 who didn't work to pin guys. And they weren't physically up to the task.

All you have to do is look back at NCAA's in the 60's-70's and see the scores in the finals and the point is proven. Wrestlers worked to score and pin "back in the day". VERY much different from MOST of today's wrestlers.

A significant number of today's matches would end as disq. if stalling were called properly. Though I really believe that if stalling were properly called wrestlers would pick up their game.

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I didn't follow the sport in the 60s and 70s.  I started in the late 80s.  You may be correct that the scores were higher.  I can't tell for certain not having competed or followed during that era.  I do know that when I watch old videos of that time period, it is like night and day compared to today.  Sure everyone may have had the mindset to pin.  If running a half nelson resulted in pins I am sure everyone today would have that mindset too.  It just seems like comparing apples to oranges while purposely ignoring some of the great wrestlers today scoring lots of points and pinning.  Guys like Garrett, Retherford, Imart, Snyder, Gwiz and countless others are incredibly fun to watch.  Great scrambles don't always result in high scores.  Chain wrestling with no scoring is still entertaining.  I am not sure high scores are indicative of effort or quality.  

 

When you watch football, do you constantly blame the refs for a boring game?  Sure, I notice blown calls.  I do not blame the refs for boring play though.  That is on the coaches, athletes and about 100 other factors that aren't always obvious as a spectator.  What low scoring matches were there last year in the NCAA finals besides 149?  I recall a lot of scoring and besides 174 and the out of bounds stretch, most of the matches were great.     

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NO..

If you really think this out.. this would be a terrible thing for Folk Style wrestling.

The conversation to just 'give away' points is bad.  Wrestlers take risks rolling through... if we gave points away, no one would take any risks.

 

The 'scramble' has become one of the MOST exciting aspects of wrestling.  Why would you want to remove it.??

When 'diving' to the ankle becomes a "repetitive" method of 'creating a stalemate' then it should be called for stalling.

 

We've already implemented that EVERY drop down below the waist is stalling... and after watching this past season, it is very evident that this is NOT true..... but yet, we have the rule (and we keep adding exceptions to the drop down almost weekly).

 

**Repost***

 

Scrambling wouldn't be removed at all.

 

I believe the thread starter is talking about situations where a defensive wrestler grabs an ankle and is unsuccessful at trying to roll through to his side or stomach and gets stuck on his back while holding the ankle. If you can't successfully roll through, you are being held to your back. It is the offensive wrestler's legs and posture that are holding you on your back and preventing you from moving one way or the other. When that happens why shouldn't there be some sort of count? You can't call stalling because the defensive wrestler is not stalling. He's attempting to turn either way with the ankle but he simply can't. At this point, why shouldn't he be considered to be in a dangerous position?

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