General Crowd Observations

[RichB 227]

At the commercial arenas we get a total attendance of 95,000-115,000; but we know that likely reflects 18,000-20,000 actual individuals.

 

If the the tournament  were to be held in St Louis for a decade, say 2019 to 2028, we might get a total attendance of 1,000,000 to 1,150,000 but that would likely represent no more than 50,000 actual individuals.

 

If we are at 10 different cities (say StLouis, Minneapolis-St Paul, KC, OkC, Chicago, Cleveland, Pitt, DC, Philly, NYC-Newark) we could again expect 1,000,000-1,150,0000. But this would likely represent over 100,000 individuals. 

[BigApple 86]

John Smith is working on getting the NCAAs to the new BOK arena in Tulsa, which is downtown.

I went to the Big-12 at the Sprint Arena in KC. This was the best arena I've been in. It is located adjacent to I-70 and is in the southeast part of downtown. Across the street are more restaurants than I've ever seen next to an arena.

None of the Phoenix arenas have enough floor area to host the NCAAs according to a friend whose checked

I'd like Denver and Salt Lake City.

An insider said it is all political now. Coke is ready to write a big check to get it in Atlanta.

Indianapolis has a great downtown and should be a host city.

I don't ever want to see Albany or Detroit again.

[Pinnum 840]

I would like to see the following bids be put forward... arena, facilities (host school):

 

-First Niagara Arena, Buffalo (Buffalo)

-Phillips Arena, Atlanta (Chattanooga)

-Verizon Center, DC (American/Maryland/George Mason)

-Consol Energy Center, Pittsburgh (Pittsburgh/West Virginia)

-Time Warner Cable Arena, Charlotte (Davidson/Gardner-Webb/App State/UNC/NC State/Duke)

-Chase Center, San Francisco (Stanford)

-BOK Center, Tulsa (Oklahoma/Oklahoma State)

 

All of them would be enjoyable, for me.

[pamela 1,334]

At the commercial arenas we get a total attendance of 95,000-115,000; but we know that likely reflects 18,000-20,000 actual individuals.

 

If the the tournament  were to be held in St Louis for a decade, say 2019 to 2028, we might get a total attendance of 1,000,000 to 1,150,000 but that would likely represent no more than 50,000 actual individuals.

 

If we are at 10 different cities (say StLouis, Minneapolis-St Paul, KC, OkC, Chicago, Cleveland, Pitt, DC, Philly, NYC-Newark) we could again expect 1,000,000-1,150,0000. But this would likely represent over 100,000 individuals. 

 

And imagine the numbers if there was a location out West in the mix! :D  

 

I'm not sure how fans liked Las Vegas for the Worlds but that might also be a decent location.  Nice weather, easy to get to, easy to get around, affordable (depending on your luck!), lots of dining and entertainment options...  the T-Mobile arena is opening in a couple of weeks on the strip, seats close to 20k with lots of hospitality sections, and will be one of the city's go-to venues for boxing, MMA, basketball, rodeo, etc.  Maybe it could work for nationals one day. :)

Edited March 23, 2016 by pamela

[Pinnum 840]

And imagine the numbers if there was a location out West in the mix! :D  

 

I'm not sure how fans liked Las Vegas for the Worlds but that might also be a decent location.  Nice weather, easy to get to, easy to get around, affordable (depending on your luck!), lots of dining and entertainment options...  the T-Mobile arena is opening in a couple of weeks, seats close to 20k with lots of hospitality sections, and will be one of the city's go-to venues for boxing, MMA, basketball, rodeo, etc.  Maybe it could work for nationals one day. :)

The state of Nevada is barred from hosting NCAA championships. Never going to happen in Vegas.

[pamela 1,334]

The state of Nevada is barred from hosting NCAA championships. Never going to happen in Vegas.

 

That's right, but I hear the city is campaigning to lift the ban and there's been a lot of lobbying going on.  Vegas already hosts four conference-level tournaments (Pac-12, WAC, WCC, MWC) and Mark Emmert has been attending them to evaluate whether a national championship tournament could work there. Maybe it'll happen!

[OCGrappler 44]

At the commercial arenas we get a total attendance of 95,000-115,000; but we know that likely reflects 18,000-20,000 actual individuals.

 

If the the tournament  were to be held in St Louis for a decade, say 2019 to 2028, we might get a total attendance of 1,000,000 to 1,150,000 but that would likely represent no more than 50,000 actual individuals.

 

If we are at 10 different cities (say StLouis, Minneapolis-St Paul, KC, OkC, Chicago, Cleveland, Pitt, DC, Philly, NYC-Newark) we could again expect 1,000,000-1,150,0000. But this would likely represent over 100,000 individuals.

 

Excellent point. Well said.

[smittyfan 42]

Hmmm, Denver gets 8 mats down every year for the State Tournament and has a large press/activities association area at one end of the gym.  Also, it seats 194 less than the Scott Trade Center in St. Louis.  I believe it has the 4th best attended state tournament in the country, behind, Iowa, Penn, Cali.  The Centennial State gets over 40K for the 3 day tournament.  Downtown would be awesome.  A lot of plusses to having it in Denver.  One thing to consider is that the highest snow total month in Colorado is March.  I believe it was 2002 in KC Natties, when I had to navigate through 30" of snow in Boulder to get to the tournament. 

[JasonBryant 2,096]

Denver's mats are right against the boards, scorers tables are actually on the mats and in penalty boxes. it's not wide enough as of now. if the dashers came out, the stands would run right to Matside. That won't fly either. I've been to a few CO state tournaments and walked on the floor expressly to see its floor space and layout just for this reason.

[Jaroslav Hasek 2,050]

it could still work on 6 mats. if local Denver sponsors raise enough money to sponsor a new D1 team, but only if the NCAA is hosted in the Pepsi center, no one is saying no thanks we need 8 mats to run the tournament. 

[Jaroslav Hasek 2,050]

also according to wikipedia (so FWIW) the Pepsi Center has a field size of 975,000 square feet, more than MSG's 820,000 square feet. 

 

anyway, point is no site is perfect and everything has a price. not that the Pepsi Center and whoever sponsors will ever submit a bid strong enough to win the NCAAs, just saying I don't believe it's impossible. 

[gimpeltf 2,069]

Hmmm, Denver gets 8 mats down every year for the State Tournament and has a large press/activities association area at one end of the gym.  Also, it seats 194 less than the Scott Trade Center in St. Louis.  I believe it has the 4th best attended state tournament in the country, behind, Iowa, Penn, Cali.  The Centennial State gets over 40K for the 3 day tournament.  Downtown would be awesome.  A lot of plusses to having it in Denver.  One thing to consider is that the highest snow total month in Colorado is March.  I believe it was 2002 in KC Natties, when I had to navigate through 30" of snow in Boulder to get to the tournament. 

 

And are those 32' circles with 42' mats? More likely 30s.

[JasonBryant 2,096]

8 mats for a 330 man tournament is the standard for the D1 championships. The floor in Denver is longer with its moveable seating .. whereas St Louis has moveable on all four sides behind the dashers

[IRTYTKY 67]

well the superbowl was actually going on in Meadowlands, surrounded mostly by parking lots and meadows (New Jerseyan for "swamp"). But Superbowl paraphernalia was all over the place, in new york city and new jersey. not to mention Bud Light parked a cruise ship in the middle of the Hudson to host parties all week long. 

 

not sure what any of that has to do with the NCAAs in Madison Square Garden. but anyway, here are the wrestlers themselves talking about the experience. 

 

https://twitter.com/ncaawrestling/status/712307856364560384

Most of the events in the week leading up to the Super Bowl do not take place at the Stadium. Greenberg was talking about walking a few blocks away from where radio row was taking place. I was trying to Google where it was to give you an exact place since I couldnt remember exactly where they were. I just remember them being in or very near the city somewhere. 

 

Once again it's not me saying a large event didnt take over a city, it is one of ESPN's most popular radio hosts. You are disagreeing with that. I'm going to side with the popular ESPN guy. 

 

Frank said the city was a buzz with wrestling so I gave an example of how New York City "swallowed" the Super Bowl. Which is an event that is infinitely more popular than the NCAA Wrestling Tournament.

[Jaroslav Hasek 2,050]

Most of the events in the week leading up to the Super Bowl do not take place at the Stadium. Greenberg was talking about walking a few blocks away from where radio row was taking place. I was trying to Google where it was to give you an exact place since I couldnt remember exactly where they were. I just remember them being in or very near the city somewhere. 

 

Once again it's not me saying a large event didnt take over a city, it is one of ESPN's most popular radio hosts. You are disagreeing with that. I'm going to side with the popular ESPN guy. 

 

Frank said the city was a buzz with wrestling so I gave an example of how New York City "swallowed" the Super Bowl. Which is an event that is infinitely more popular than the NCAA Wrestling Tournament.

perhaps i misinterpreted you but i read your comment as trying to imply that the superbowl was no big deal in new york. this is wrong. if greenberg was implying that (which I doubt he was, but I've never listened to him) he is also wrong. however, what i would assume greenberg meant is compared to the way the superbowl completely consumed other cities that host, new york city took the event in stride. this should be filed under no duh. 

 

i was in new york before the superbowl and it was a massive deal. i was at MSG for the NCAAs and there was a buzz around the arena for wrestling, just like there is anytime there is an event. but it's new york. the yankees win the world series and have a parade through downtown and still most of the city doesn't care. everything is relative. 

[RichB 227]

Since 2002 all actual or intended NCAA sites have been in an arena used by NHL or AHL hockey. The Detroit site has held IHL Hockey.  Supposedly all North American Pro Ice Hockey sites are 85 by 200 rinks (with four 28 ft radius quarter circles in place of the corners). However, there are two AHL arenas in Hershey: the older Hershey Park Arena, the former site of the Bears and the PIAA championship, and the Giant Center current site for those events. However, the District 3 tournament is now held in HPA and is clearly 1-2 feet narrower. The same six mat setup is used in both events, with most of the same mats, and there is clearly more walking room at the newer facility.

 

Maybe that explains the Denver problem. I gather from what Jason says that Denver's side seating is 100% fixed. Strange, usually at least one side has 5-10 rows of collapsible seating.

 

Not recommending going back to Detroit, but I see they are building (open in a year and a half) a replacement for the RedWings Joe Louis Arena in Downtown.

 

Too Bad NHL decided to reject International sized Hockey rinks as had been suggested a couple of decades ago. They are ~98X200 ft. We could use 45' square mats with 35' circles an 2-3' by 30-35' safety apron mats on the 12 outside edges.   

[JasonBryant 2,096]

Upon further review, it does look like Denver "COULD" do it, but as this image below shows, the sides would be tight. I'm assuming these mats aren't the full size we expect at NCAA"s. 

 

 

You'll also notice the scorers tables are on the inside and outside of the mats, that's not how they're geared to be set up. I believe the NCAA doesn't like obstructions in the middle of mats (save clocks). Every NCAA tournament I've been to since 2002, all the scoretables have been on the sides. Plenty of end-zone seating for more media seating (that's a plus), but it just looks like the boards are too close to the competition surface -- the only retractable portions of the stands are where the hockey benches go (and penalty boxes on the opposite side). Coaches corners are also on the inside, which isn't how the NCAA sets up the event either. You'll also notice certain mats have sections of dollamur mats removed. Hard to tell if the red & black mats are resilite, which is what the NCAA uses. Can't have smaller circles at nationals like you can with HS. 

 

Basically, I think the Pepsi Center would be fantastic, but just thing the way the floor is set up with the stands, tightness (it was very tight in Auburn Hills and Des Moines) would be the major factor. 

 

This looks slightly different from when I last attended the Colorado State Tournament in 2012. This picture was from 2015. 

Edited March 23, 2016 by JasonBryant

[gimpeltf 2,069]

Upon further review, it does look like Denver "COULD" do it, but as this image below shows, the sides would be tight. I'm assuming these mats aren't the full size we expect at NCAA"s. 

 

 

You'll also notice the scorers tables are on the inside and outside of the mats, that's not how they're geared to be set up. I believe the NCAA doesn't like obstructions in the middle of mats (save clocks). Every NCAA tournament I've been to since 2002, all the scoretables have been on the sides. Plenty of end-zone seating for more media seating (that's a plus), but it just looks like the boards are too close to the competition surface -- the only retractable portions of the stands are where the hockey benches go (and penalty boxes on the opposite side). Coaches corners are also on the inside, which isn't how the NCAA sets up the event either. You'll also notice certain mats have sections of dollamur mats removed. Hard to tell if the red & black mats are resilite, which is what the NCAA uses. Can't have smaller circles at nationals like you can with HS. 

 

Basically, I think the Pepsi Center would be fantastic, but just thing the way the floor is set up with the stands, tightness (it was very tight in Auburn Hills and Des Moines) would be the major factor. 

 

This looks slightly different from when I last attended the Colorado State Tournament in 2012. This picture was from 2015. 

 

As I suggested in earlier post, this proves those are 30' mats. Those kind of mats are in 6' strips. The mats use up exactly 5 segments with one strip in between.

Now, on the other hand, the seats on the right do look like they can recede 3 rows. Interestingly enough, the ones on the left don't look that way. Note the metallic shine in the aisles.

[IRTYTKY 67]

perhaps i misinterpreted you but i read your comment as trying to imply that the superbowl was no big deal in new york. this is wrong. if greenberg was implying that (which I doubt he was, but I've never listened to him) he is also wrong. however, what i would assume greenberg meant is compared to the way the superbowl completely consumed other cities that host, new york city took the event in stride. this should be filed under no duh. 

 

i was in new york before the superbowl and it was a massive deal. i was at MSG for the NCAAs and there was a buzz around the arena for wrestling, just like there is anytime there is an event. but it's new york. the yankees win the world series and have a parade through downtown and still most of the city doesn't care. everything is relative. 

Ill still go with what I heard from the ESPN guy over you. Also I have seen on here that people have said the opposite of you on the whole buzz thing so its all just opinion i guess. 

[Roadkill 75]

I loved NYC, yes it is different from St. Louis, no fanfest(although I only spent about 15 minutes there) and the entire city embraces the Wrestling crowd.  But I went to about 5 different(ok maybe a couple more) bars(all within walking distance) and ran into someone I knew at each place.  I also went to a great BBQ place on 26th street in between sessions on Friday and about half the place were wrestling fans(no wait). I liked the fact that in NYC, you could go out for a late dinner at mid-night and you had a million places to choose from.  Sure the NYC bars were more expensive, but they were not as jammed as St. Louis.  I like that they rotate the venues, I just think the East Coast should be in the mix every other year or every third year(Philly was great and that was before the Xfinity live Center was built...multiple bars/restaurants at the far end of the parking lot can hold over 5,000 people, more if weather is nice with the outside bars).

Edited March 23, 2016 by Roadkill

[Jaroslav Hasek 2,050]

Ill still go with what I heard from the ESPN guy over you. Also I have seen on here that people have said the opposite of you on the whole buzz thing so its all just opinion i guess. 

I don't disagree that Greenberg felt underwhelmed by the superbowl hype in new york. if you're implying that means new york city didn't care about the superbowl when it came into town then you're crazy. 

 

in any event, sorry that you feel there was not enough reported buzz about the event around new york to your liking. if you want to count that as a tournament negative (without being there yourself), ok, congrats, you win!

[redAnklet 7]

Thumbs down on Chicago. Great town, just works for anything BUT a NCAA wrestling championship. The idea of shuttling masses from the Loop to the United Center for six sessions is unrealistic. Depending on your hotel, it's a 3-4 mile commute. The CTA is less reliable (with waits twice as long) than NYC's subway & would get absolutely crushed. Walking is unrealistic for most. Buses? Have fun. Cab fares would get old by session III..

 

It's a clumsy commute. Wrestling fans would be disappointed. Keep the tournament centrally located (StL always pleases) and kick it to the coasts every five years or so. Some good mentions in this thread.

[pamela 1,334]

Thumbs down on Chicago. Great town, just works for anything BUT a NCAA wrestling championship. The idea of shuttling masses from the Loop to the United Center for six sessions is unrealistic. Depending on your hotel, it's a 3-4 mile commute. The CTA is less reliable (with waits twice as long) than NYC's subway & would get absolutely crushed. Walking is unrealistic for most. Buses? Have fun. Cab fares would get old by session III..

 

It's a clumsy commute. Wrestling fans would be disappointed. Keep the tournament centrally located (StL always pleases) and kick it to the coasts every five years or so. Some good mentions in this thread.

 

Point taken about the United Center being a less than ideal location, but really, transportation is hardly a hassle.  As someone who has lived in both Chi and NYC, I don't think the CTA is any more or less reliable than the subway in NYC (and definitely a lot less congested); and cab fares are comparable between the two cities. Plus you could always do Uber or other ride-sharing.  

 

The March Madness midwestern regionals is at the United Center this week.  How are those fans dealing with it?  

[pamela 1,334]

Another thought about Chicago - McCormick Place would be a very nice and easily accessible venue.  It's more of a convention center, but they do host basketball tournaments, AAU sports, and the NCAA volleyball tournaments there but don't know if they have the right configuration and space for wrestling.

[Pinnum 840]

The March Madness midwestern regionals is at the United Center this week.  How are those fans dealing with it?

Never been to the United Center but I have been to the NCAA basketball championships a few times. It is much different when you're going to a single session event on a single date compared to a multi-session date on the same date.

 

That was my one issue with Philly. While I enjoyed it and it would be great if it returned, I did not like how there wasn't much local to the venue for between sessions. I don't like wasting time commuting when I don't have to and I realize this is an event that a lot of people consider to be a vacation so I can see why they would want to minimize travel during the three days they are at a city to take in some wrestling while using limited days off from work.