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WillieBoy

Boise State? Other Western programs?

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What has happened to them? They were doing well and have almost disappeared from view now.

Arizona State is getting some publicity but still way far away from title contention.

Oregon State is doing OK 'for a West Coast school' but basically a non-entity among the big boys.

Stanford and the California schools don't seem to be able to put it together on any consistent basis.

Utah produced Cael but he home grown programs are non-entities.

 

What is wrong with programs once you hit the Rocky Mountains heading West?

 

 

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I think ASU could be a top 5 program every year if things fall into place.  What kid from PA/NJ/OH/NY or anywhere in the Midwest wouldn't fall in love with that place if they visit in the Fall/Winter?  The girls are unreal, the weather great (at least during most of the school year), and they seem to be a well funded program.  They could cherry pick the best CA kids (not much competition for them), and still pursue national level kids from the East/Midwest.

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except that the western states have always been middle of the pack in terms of HS talent produced.

 

Right, and why their colleges typically are too. 

 

2001-2016 only 8 times have those western schools produced teams that finished top 10 in the NCAAs. I know ASU has a title to their name, and they typically are good (but have some off years), but the rest of the schools really do lag behind, at least in the past 15 years they do.

 

2013 Oregon State finished 8th

2012 they finished 10th

2011 ASU finished 6th, BSU 9th

2006 ASU finished 6th

2003 ASU finished 5th

2001 ASU Finished 9th, BSU 10th

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Most places on the west coast defunded and got rid of organized middle school wrestling.  In addition, the offseason tournament series have been drastically watered down.  The result is a way lower density of middle upper to elite level competition, which IMO is dragging everyone down.  If you look at all of the powerhouses that mop everyone up, they all have funded middle school programs.  Everyone else is playing catch up in regards to sheer numbers of competent wrestlers who are on the mat in 9th grade.

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Title IX really smashed many of those programs and thus they were, as Olddirty stated, defunded. Many of the colleges and schools took the letter of the law to the exact in terms of the exact number of programs between sexes and wrestling was the odd man out in nearly every case. For example, if the girls (at a high school lets say) had softball, soccer, tennis and basketball and the boys had baseball, football, tennis, basketball and wrestling then wrestling would be eliminated (and was) because there was no equal number of programs. Originally the (a few) schools tried to offset it to save the wrestling programs by adding silly sports like "girls badminton" but since not enough came to field teams they had to get rid of one guys sport to meet the law and it was nearly always wrestling. 

 

It went far beyond that too as boosters, donations and nearly every form of money was forced to be given in equal amount as well. For example when I graduated from my graduate program I ran into my old wrestling coach and he was talking about how they planned to buy some new practice mats. I went by the school a few weeks later and had planned to write a check for a few hundred dollars to help but he said he couldn't accept it because ALL donations went into a common pot and was split between all sports. So people couldn't even/can't even make a specific donation to the sport they want to help without Title IX ****ing it up. 

 

That law really needs to be looked at in a serious way. 

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Probably  because you have so few opportunities West of the Rockies (any division)  for as many people reside West of the Rockies.  Too many guys these days are softer than Charmin and get butt hurt if a coach recruits 5-6 other guys at their weight,  or what hurts programs is the fact that schools are being limited in male sports on their roster size (partially due to the women's sports doing a crappy recruiting job).     I would be interested to see if California Junior Colleges went to a full season if that would help add more programs as well to help with scheduling the entire wrestling season like they do in NAIA, NJCAA, DI, DII, DIII, and NCWA.     I think with the upsurge in wrestling added at the NAIA and Juco levels in the last 10 years or so,  that may be the initial route to get more programs,  and in turn more coaching trying harder to recruit out west instead of just taking things for granted with the local kids (although,  look what happened when NC State recruited the kid from Wyoming...he got home sick). 

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I think ASU could be a top 5 program every year if things fall into place.  What kid from PA/NJ/OH/NY or anywhere in the Midwest wouldn't fall in love with that place if they visit in the Fall/Winter?  The girls are unreal, the weather great (at least during most of the school year), and they seem to be a well funded program.  They could cherry pick the best CA kids (not much competition for them), and still pursue national level kids from the East/Midwest.

You rarely see kids from the Midwest leave the Midwest to wrestle.

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Arizona also has an Olympic gold medal in Greco. That should give the west some points. But back to college. ASU is on the rise yo what looks to be top 10 status for years to come. Program is in great shape and is 2 years into recruiting now. Northern Colorado is on the rise. Utah valley state. Teams out west just can't go as deep at this time. Hopefully the sun devils help lead the change.

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Arizona State (Tempe) is a really awesome area and considering their new facilities (which are awesome), the amount of tail in that area and the recent recruitment pickups I wouldn't be surprised if they really rose quickly and even started to grab some eastern and midwestern top recruits. Having Jones doesn't hurt either of course. 

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Branch is doing quite well bringing the Wyoming team along in the last few years. I believe they finished top 20 and I would guess they'll improve on that next year - especially impressive given that this was supposed to be a 'rebuilding' year since they lost their top guys to graduation. (If I'm not mistaken, Meredith is from Cheyenne - recruited to NC and then back to WYO for a really nice showing this year, and a nice bit of recruitment.)

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I think ASU could be a top 5 program every year if things fall into place.  What kid from PA/NJ/OH/NY or anywhere in the Midwest wouldn't fall in love with that place if they visit in the Fall/Winter?  The girls are unreal, the weather great (at least during most of the school year), and they seem to be a well funded program.  They could cherry pick the best CA kids (not much competition for them), and still pursue national level kids from the East/Midwest.

 

You rarely see kids from the Midwest leave the Midwest to wrestle.

During Arizona State's great run in the late 80s/early 90s they were able to recruit Ohio very well and also got one key guy at least that I can recall from Michigan, Oklahoma and even Iowa.  Be interesting to see if they can have that kind of national recruiting presence again.     

Edited by KTG119

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There was a time, a long time ago ( late 60's early 70's).... UW Huskies' were up into the 2nd/3rd at the NCAA's (70's era)

 

WSU and UW etc ... Title 9, was used improperly. The female AD "Hedges" killed the program.

 

We have an excellent HS wrestling community, yet nowhere for our guys/gals to go.

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Most places on the west coast defunded and got rid of organized middle school wrestling.  In addition, the offseason tournament series have been drastically watered down.  The result is a way lower density of middle upper to elite level competition, which IMO is dragging everyone down.  If you look at all of the powerhouses that mop everyone up, they all have funded middle school programs.  Everyone else is playing catch up in regards to sheer numbers of competent wrestlers who are on the mat in 9th grade.

 

Dirty-Is that all through Oregon, Washington, California etc? Interesting, and sad to know.

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During Arizona State's great run in the late 80s/early 90s they were able to recruit Ohio very well and also got one key guy at least that I can recall from Michigan, Oklahoma and even Iowa.  Be interesting to see if they can have that kind of national recruiting presence again.     

After the huge recruiting class for ASU last year, they only brought in a couple guys this year. But their class that was #1 included a top wrestler from MN and 2 from PA. Recruiting is getting national for them. The 2016-17 class will be really big for them.

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Most places on the west coast defunded and got rid of organized middle school wrestling.  In addition, the offseason tournament series have been drastically watered down.  The result is a way lower density of middle upper to elite level competition, which IMO is dragging everyone down.  If you look at all of the powerhouses that mop everyone up, they all have funded middle school programs.  Everyone else is playing catch up in regards to sheer numbers of competent wrestlers who are on the mat in 9th grade.

I coached in So Cal in the late 90s, early 2000s.  The first year I was there, after the HS season ended I wanted to know what the returning kids had planned for training.  Zip.  Very little options, from clubs to tourneys, etc.  Huge disadvantage.

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Midwest and East coast teams can compete against each other on a regular basis and get to see most of the major talent in the country.  The west coast teams are isolated and have to travel more to compete against top competition.  That seems to be hurting these teams the most.  

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Most places on the west coast defunded and got rid of organized middle school wrestling.  In addition, the offseason tournament series have been drastically watered down.  The result is a way lower density of middle upper to elite level competition, which IMO is dragging everyone down.  If you look at all of the powerhouses that mop everyone up, they all have funded middle school programs.  Everyone else is playing catch up in regards to sheer numbers of competent wrestlers who are on the mat in 9th grade.

 

I can confirm that in my part of the West, all middle school sports lost funding and the high school that I coach at only gets minimal funding. They can't even pay for all of our entry fees our guarantee use of the school buses on weekends. 

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A lot of school districts in the west never had sports teams affiliated with middle schools/junior highs or elementary schools.  If you wanted to play a sport you had to go the route of Pop Warner football, little league baseball, etc. 

For me, that was the 1980s, I grew up in AZ & CA.  In AZ my district's elementary schools didn't have any sports and the only jr high team was basketball.   A nearby school district did have jr high wrestling teams (fed into 1 high school, later 2). 

 

In SoCal - didn't have anything but I know there were some in the area at the time.  Now, as far as I know it is club only. 

Fresno area - had wrestling & still does. 

NorCal foothills - had wrestling, 5th grade and on, back then and now. 

 

 

You also have to take in account the population for some of them:

Idaho - 1.65 million

Montana - 1 million

Wyoming - 586,000

New Mexico - 2 million

Nevada - 2.9 million with 2 million in Vegas metro (population in 2000 - 2 million and 1990 only 1.2 million)

Utah - 3 million.  (In 2000 - 2.2 million, in 1990 - 1.7 million)

 

The DI schools outside of California all recruit heavily in CA for sports like football & basketball, so it isn't surprising that their smaller sports, ones with fragmented scholarships, aren't as strong.  Most Pac12 & MWC rosters have more California kids than in-state kids.   Could call Washington UC-Seattle, Nevada-Reno is Cal State Reno. 

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It seems that many of the Western School's recruiting programs are content with focusing their efforts on local talent. ie ..Washington, Utah, Oregon etc. It is not very often (other than Fargo) that you see the coaches attending big HS events in the East such as Beast, Ironman, Jr. Nationals etc. I asked several of them "why they didn't target these event?" and their response was "finances" It would be nice to at least have them set a goal to target and sign 1-2 kids east of the Mississippi every year.

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Headbanger, all of those programs have limited resources. The cost of travel for recruitment out west takes a big toll on resources (staff time and program finances).

 

You can fly to the Beat of the East or Ironman and see top recruits but then you'll have to pay for them to flyout for a visit. If they decide not to sign with you, then you're out a lot. This is the reality many programs face. You don't want to spend too much time traveling to recruit when your athletes need you in the practice room getting them ready for competitions.

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I coached in So Cal in the late 90s, early 2000s.  The first year I was there, after the HS season ended I wanted to know what the returning kids had planned for training.  Zip.  Very little options, from clubs to tourneys, etc.  Huge disadvantage.

Absolutely correct.  We didn't have middle school wrestling.  The only thing they did during jr. high was to have the entire PE class try out different sports for a week at a time.  Track, wrestling, football, etc.  I competed in the Southern Section and after wrestling season was over, some guys went over to track and field, but that was pretty much it.  There were no wrestling clubs because of lack of funding.  The only things were freestyle camps during the summer and I don't really remember where they held those. 

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What is sad is Coach Zelesky going to Oregon State and basically disappearing from view. Boise State looking tough and then fading like ice cubes melting on a summer sidewalk. Arizona State getting excitement when they have done nothing but recruit. Fresno State getting publicity for avoiding death and Cal Poly SLO for surfing. Stanford has the occasional top performer but has never been a threat for top honors - or even the top five. Utah Valley is a mirage with a coach more concerned about his hair than placings.

 

I don't see serous challenges to the top dogs from Western schools any time soon.

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