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WillieBoy

Boise State? Other Western programs?

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Its not going to get any better at BSU as the head coach in his infinite wisdom let Coach Owens go. IMHO, Chris is the reason for what success the Broncos have had in the past. SMH.

 

Say what now ?!?

 

I had not heard that news.  Yikes, I was kinda wondering if BSU would let Randall go and make Owens the head coach.  I like both Randall and Owens, and when they were young pitbulls they turned Boise State into a very successful program with 2 National Champs, multiple finalists, and numerous All-Americans ... all on a tight budget and with kids that were not considered blue-chip recruits for the most part.

 

But they're both old now, and I've felt for a while now that with Boise State's small wrestling budget, they really can't afford to have 2 old coaches that can't get on the mat and really push the team.  I think it will be great to have 2 young coaches that can get in the room and beat the crap out of the guys to make them better.  But I hate that someone like Chris Owens who has devoted his life to coaching young wrestlers at BSU and kids in local youth programs in this area, and is raising his family here has to lose his job.  That stinks.

Edited by zander

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Head coach of a D1 wrestling program is  a young man's sport and a lot of these guys aren't young.  Some of the coaches simply don't have the enthusiasm required to maintain the programs they built.

 

I am curious why you say that.  Could you elaborate a little bit more on your thoughts?

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Its not going to get any better at BSU as the head coach in his infinite wisdom let Coach Owens go. IMHO, Chris is the reason for what success the Broncos have had in the past. SMH.

 

Headbanger - without divulging names (unless you really feel like it), how did you come by this knowledge?

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Resources and stability are needed.  The majority of the western programs don't have those.

How much do you expect from the western programs and what are realistic goals?

 

 

Oregon St overall is a pretty successful program.  They had two top 10 finishes recently, granted the last few years their performances at nationals have not gone that well. 

 

ASU - Idk what to tell you about them, erratic program (seems to be a common theme throughout their athletic department).  Hopefully, Jones can bring some consistency and get the program back into the top 10-15. 

 

Stanford:  Had two All-Americans this year and Wilson, 165lb, made the round of 12, all three are returning.  They have some promising FR & SOPH in the room.  Program has really improved.  In the 15 years before Gentry won his title in 2004, they had only 3 All-Americans.  Since that title they've had 5 years with two All-Americans and a 11th place team finish in 2011. 

 

 

Resources are a big issue with the western programs.  ASU's athletic department has them.  Oregon St is at the bottom of the Pac12 alongside Washington St but they still are a significant from most of the non Pac12 western schools.  Stanford, could potentially build a program that is strong year in and year out.

After those three it is a steep drop.

 

 

Look at the top 10 teams for the nationals over the past 10 years and the individual champs & runner ups; categorize them by resources (quickest way is football related).

 

FBS power conference:  Three Pac12 full members, mentioned above.

FBS Mid Majors:  Boise St, Wyoming, Air Force.

FCS:  Poly, Northern Colorado.  Dropped program:  UC Davis.

No football:  Bakersfield, Utah Valley St.  Dropped program:  Fullerton St.

 

2007-2016:  Only 2 mid majors have had a top 10 finish at the NCAAs:  Boise St & Central Michigan each with 1.  Only Kent St has had an individual champ.  Boise St has the most runner ups - 3.  C. Michigan - 2.  Kent St & Wyoming - 1 each.

 

FCS:  Cornell blows this out of the water with top 10 finishes, champs & runner ups.  After them, top 10 finishes:  Lehigh 2, Northern Iowa 1, Hofstra 1.  Individual champs:  UC Davis 1, Harvard 1, Lehigh 1.

Runner ups:  Lehigh 5, Poly 3, Old Dominion 1. 

 

No football:  Just American U.  1 top 10 finish, 1 champ & 1 runner up.

 

***Edinboro (DI in wrestling, DII in other sports):  4 top 10 finishes.  2 champs.  5 runner ups.

 

 

To comparable programs, Boise St has been at the top.  This year Wyoming did what only 3 other mid majors have done in the past 10 years - get a wrestler in the finals.

 

Poly has been dismal over the past few years but outside of Cornell & Lehigh, their number of All-Americans is favorable compared to similar schools.

 

 

Even though wrestling doesn't have as many power conference teams participating, that doesn't mean the void is going to be filled by smaller schools, power conferences still dominate. 

Team top 10 finishes over the past 10 years:  Twice 9 power conference schools were top 10.  Six times 8 were top 10.  Once each for 7 teams in the top 10 and 6 in the top 10. 

10 years, 100 individual national titles:  82 won by wrestlers on power conference teams, 11 won by Cornell wrestlers.

100 runner ups:  75 won by wrestlers on power conference teams.

 

 

Bakersfield is in the middle of a wrestling hotbed...but the administration hates the sport.  Weren't supportive decades ago when they were winning at the DII level, didn't support them when they went up to DI, didn't support them when they were 3rd at nationals - admin response was to cap the team roster.  Tried to kill the program numerous times. 

Being on that team is akin to walking around with a noose around your neck, why would someone want to be part of that environment.

 

 

Poly is underfunded, administration is making it more difficult for all sports (they have a revolving system for registering for courses & I've heard they've dropped athletes having priority during in-season quarters.  At an impacted campus, this makes it difficult to progress), good academics but when it comes to using that as an incentive, they are going up against better funded schools.  Ones that actually know what scholarships are.

 

 

Bakersfield & Poly could be the California version of Edinboro & Lehigh but I highly doubt that will happen; it is more likely Bakersfield will drop the sport in the next 5 years.  Edinboro & Lehigh support wrestling, Bakersfield fights their most accomplished athlete in court.

 

 

Branch seems to be building something at Wyoming, hopefully Meredith's 2nd place helps with recruitment.

 

 

Northern Colorado & Utah Valley are going to need to improve recruiting, going to be tough to get top guys away from the big programs and schools like American U.  They aren't going to land a 3x CA state champ, but they could hustle for the guy that goes 3rd, 5th & 8th.  2nd & 5th type guy.

They should swoop in on some of Grand Canyon's now homeless wrestlers & incoming freshmen - Trence Gillem.  Danny Vega. 

Edited by OBJoeB

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Talked to Randall at Nichols Open in Ames this year.  Nice guy, but seems like he is hard to talk to.  Can't imagine what a recruit would think.  I think he said he wants to retire there and not in the so distant future.  Does he have kids at Boise State?  Thought is was tied to kids and high school or college

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Most places on the west coast defunded and got rid of organized middle school wrestling.  In addition, the offseason tournament series have been drastically watered down.  The result is a way lower density of middle upper to elite level competition, which IMO is dragging everyone down.  If you look at all of the powerhouses that mop everyone up, they all have funded middle school programs.  Everyone else is playing catch up in regards to sheer numbers of competent wrestlers who are on the mat in 9th grade.

 

Agreed.  I coach HS at a small Oregon school (about 250 students).  The school pays for my very small salary and and an even smaller check for my assistant and a middle school coach.  They pay for our transportation (in state).  But we have to pay for everything else.  I have to fund raise $5000 per year minimum to meet the basics.  That includes some hotel stays (for the Dual Meet Championship), equipment, and about $2000 of entry fees.  Most weekend tournaments we attend have $200-$400 entry fees. 

 

We are lucky to have a middle school program (most Oregon schools do not), but the season is 6 weeks long (really, just 5 once kids get their paperwork in line).  It is pretty hard to bring kids up in that short amount of time.  Plus, the school charges the kids $100 per season, so any kids on the fence just don't come out.  It is hard for parents to justify $100 for a month an a half of wrestling.  So, our best kids come through clubs.  We have 2 kids in our HS program that have All American finishes. And, their parents have spent a significant amount of money getting them to tough tournaments around the country.  I know, I am one of those parents. 

 

The distances are another big issue out west.  All of the tough regional tournaments require significant travel.  Reno Worlds (12 hour drive) and the Freakshow in Las Vegas (plane flight) are the toughest out of season events. If you live in Easton, Pennsylvania, you are less than 7 hours from Cleveland or Virginia Beach.  There is really no need to go farther than that, other than the annual trip to Fargo. 

 

But, I think the biggest issue is the lack of top colleges producing coaches.  In Oregon, we have one D1 school, one D3, two NAIA (next year 3), and 2 JCs.  In Washington, there is ONLY Highline CC, a JC program. Title IX, or rather, the inappropriate application of the law, decimated wrestling in the west. 

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The lack of funds many HS wrestling teams face is terrible (a lot of other sports are in the same boat). 

My high school fields a good team - has had a few state placers, a runner up not that long ago, has decent funding for trips & such.  Head coach & 3 assistants (believe one is volunteer) for boys varsity, jv & girls varsity (they might have jv, too).  But the football team has 13 coaches...won a total of 2 playoff games in the past 25 years, one recently & the other, well 25 years ago. 

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'Group of Five' (or G5 for short) is the term you're looking for in that context.

Mid majors refers to the same group.  I was figuring using "power conferences" and "mid majors" was enough of a distinction, going back 10 years I opted to use power conference & mid majors instead of BCS 6, etc. 

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Funding for individual teams is not the issue on the west coast.  Our HS budget is $800 with no transportation and we are a top 10 team in Masters.  We arent very unique either.  It is the entire sports programs of middle school.  These sports are not funded, and hence, there are no leagues, which means there are no chances.  Funding a middle school team is easy.  I know because I do it and I enter my kids into a club circuit.  Everything must be done on a club level however, which IMO is why the west coast does not have powerhouse teams.  The middle school system does not produce the numbers needed and its a trickle down effect that screws us.

 

College opportunities is not the problem because there are plenty of places for them to go.  Not as many as the midwest or east, but enough to where there are opportunities.  Why do they not excel?  The lack of middle school wrestling sets a precedence for the our culture where wrestling isnt very important.

 

One poster brought up central CA having a middle school league that is funded.  Well, looky looky who kicks everyones ass year in and year out and sends the most guys to college?  Is that a coincidence?  If you had that everywhere, you would have a more pervasive presence of wrestling in the overall culture which would lead to WAY more numbers, and more quality guys into college.

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 In addition, the offseason tournament series have been drastically watered down.  The result is a way lower density of middle upper to elite level competition

 

I just got back from the CA Cadet/Junior Freestyle state tournament and it was extremely watered down to where it was 10-12 years ago (back when I competed and dinosaurs roamed the earth). In 2004, I wrestled in the cadet 119 bracket along with ~100 other boys. This weekend, the combined Cadet + Junior 120 had less than that total. The tournaments were so big in the 2000's that Cadet Freestyle, Junior Freestyle and combined Greco all happened on different weekends, but this weekend in the same building they ran:

 

1)

2) Boys Cadets FS

3) Girls Cadets FS

4) Boys Juniors FS

5) Girls Juniors FS

6) Open FS

7) Open Greco

 

There were still tough kids this weekend, and we got good matches, but the tournament was a shell of its former self. Anecdotally, all of pre-/off-season tournaments have taken this downward trend.  

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Why is Poway such an outlier in California?  

 

 

Because Poway is in San Diego. 

 

 

If Poway, Clovis or Buchanan had to go through the "meat grinder" that is the Southern Section Masters, they wouldn't dominate the state tournament anymore. 

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The season is six weeks long and you're going on trips in hotels? Is this a rural community where you have to travel great distances?

 

I don't understand the expenses.

 

The Middle School season is 6 weeks long.  Not the high school season.  The high school team has hotel stays because we have 2 day tournaments 4 hours or more away from home. 

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From a true California outsider -- How can a golf tournament be a "meat grinder"?

CA has 10 sections that qualify varying amounts of wrestlers to the 40 man state tournament. One of the sections, Southern Section, has something like 350 schools competing for 9 spots. The section with the biggest powerhouse teams, Central, had about 100 competing for 9 spots. San Diego, one of the worst sections excluding a single top 5 team has something like 80 schools competing for 3 spots.

 

CA aficionados sometimes call the Southern Section qualifier (called the Masters) a "meat grinder" because it's relatively so hard to get through. Some even argue that if you moved Clovis, Buchanan and Poway (the current top 3) into the southern section, they wouldn't qualify 12-14 guys anymore, making the state tournament very different.

 

Sent from my XT1053 using Tapatalk

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