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Dieringer Wins Hodge

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There have been far too many winners that contradict what the press release tells us is the criteria.   

 

A lower division wrestler with 4 defeats once won the award.    Try to make sense of that based on the criteria given. 

 

There was once a guy who was pinned in the center of the mat, who won the award over an undefeated national champion.  

 

There was once an undefeated national champion who won it over an undefeated national champion who had many more pins 

 

There was an undefeated for his career national champion who had to share it with a guy with multiple losses.   

 

This year, the Penn State kid clearly out performed the committee's selection, and yet he didn't win.   

 

There is no consistency.   When they wanted Metcalf, they found a way to word it in order to give him the award.   When they wanted Burroguhs, they found the way to word it, and they gave him the award.   When they wanted Ringer, they found a way to word it, and they gave him the award.   When they wanted to give it to the kid with no arms or legs, they found a way to do so.   When they wanted to keep it from Varner, they did exactly that, despite being the CLEAR and head and shoulders best wrestler in college wrestling.    Snyder was obviously the best this year and he will be next year as well.  Don't be surprised if they decide they want him to get it, suddenly from no where, he will win it.   It's how it works and there is plenty of evidence to support it if you just study up on it a little.   

 

I don't know I'd call it a conspiracy.   We know they pick the guy they want, and then they explain it away through which ever form of the criteria they choose.   It's essentially a popularity contest.  

There was nothing obvious about Snyder being the best Collegiate wrestler this year.  

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"There was nothing obvious about Snyder being the best Collegiate wrestler this year."  

 

Define best.  If by best you mean the ability to hold a guy down with a spiral/claw ride and hitting tilts, then he's not.  If it means beating the best competition on every level over the course of the last year--both collegiate and beyond--he was.  

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I do not want to start with the Varner/Ness stuff again:-) A lot of people think it should go to the best guy in wrestling period. The Hodge shouldn't be about Mr Hodge-who cares. And NO disrespect to Hodge himself. Give it to the best wrestler in college. People know who is the best without splitting hairs with this dumb criteria they got for the award. Ringer deserved it and if I did P4P I would have put him #1. Everyone on earth knew Varner was the best wrestler in college hands down in 2010 and the gap between him and Ness was huge. If the Hodge is a pinners award then make the Hodge a pinner's award but don't they have an award for that already? MVP award and don't put anyone's name on the dang trophy.  

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You are missing the point.  They are different sports with different competition and criteria.

 

I could argue that there is a lot of overlap between racquetball and Tennis.  Both sports involve rackets and a ball and trying to hit said ball past the opponent. There is timing of bounces, hand eye coordination, positioning, serves, and so on.  I suspect that the worlds top tennis players could be very good at raquetball if they devoted time to training it and learned the rules differences.  But if Roger Federer won a world racquetball tournament no one would try to use it as evidence that he should be ranked 1st in the world in tennis right now 

 

Yes, but they have a very high degree of overlap in some instances, especially on the feet. Your analogy is true to a point, but it breaks down in a few key areas.. For starters, you're treating elite FS wrestling with collegiate folkstyle wrestling like they are the same thing. They aren't. Generally speaking, as a society we view each professional sport as being on the same level. That is, we treat the #1 Racquetball player in the world as being equally accomplished as the #1 Tennis player in the world. There are pretty good reasons for this, since to be the best in the world you usually have to be training full time with the best coaches at the highest competition level. That includes all grown men who are still capable of competing at a high level, not just the ones who have one of their 4 years of eligibility left and are most likely under 24 years old. The reasons for treating the accomplishment of being #1 in racquetball and tennis equivalent don't hold for elite freestyle and folkstyle wrestling. One accomplishment (ncaa champion) is a lesser accomplishment than the other (world or Olympic champion).

 

So you say "they are different sports with different competition and criteria". To be more precise, you could say they are different,yet very similar sports in key areas (especially on the feet were most points are scored at the elite level in both styles) with one sport; freestyle, having far superior competition and a much higher level of skill needed to get to the very top. This is something that is recognized by all of the greats of the sport in this country. Whether it be Brands, Smith, Cael, Gable, etc. they'll all tell you that winning at the Olympics and Worlds proves that you are the best in the world. They'll also tell you the same is not true for the NCAAs. They are well aware of the differences between the sports, but know that the sports are similar enough to  rightfully say that one requires a greater level of skill and a higher level of technique to get to the #1 spot.

 

"I suspect that the worlds top tennis players could be very good at raquetball if they devoted time to training it and learned the rules differences.  But if Roger Federer won a world racquetball tournament no one would try to use it as evidence that he should be ranked 1st in the world in tennis right now"

 

 

 

 Like I mentioned above, the comparison using world class tennis/racquetball does not hold well when comparing world class freestyle wrestling and collegiate folkstyle wrestling. A far better example would be comparing amateur boxing to professional boxing. Although the sports are very similar, they do have various differences in rules which effect things like scoring and strategy. Still, they have a great amount of overlap so one can reasonably compare the two and consider professional boxing to be a higher level of boxing, not merely just a different type of boxing that is done at the same level. 

 

If the #1 ranked amateur boxer goes into the professional ranks and claims the #1 spot at that level, why couldn't you use that as a line of evidence to show just how good that boxer is in comparison to his peers at the amateur boxing level? Especially if his peers at the amateur level tried to accomplish the same thing but weren't capable of doing it? Skills like footwork, timing, head movement, counter punching, setting traps, walking an opponent down, punching while moving laterally and backwards, in professional boxing are more advanced than amateur olympic style boxing. If an amateur olympic boxer is able to beat all the pros at their game while his peers can't, that shows his skill level is of a higher quality. This level of skill may have been hidden from the untrained eye. Sometimes the degree of skill and talent cannot be shown if the level of competition is not high enough.

 

EX. Imagine if Zain Retherford and Alec Pantaleo both wrestled through a Vermont High school state championship bracket. What would likely happen? They both would probably breeze through the bracket picking apart all of their competition on the way to the championsip. They'd likely score on every shot, score on every turn attempt, and ultimately pin every opponent without any trouble whatsoever. If you never saw the two compete above this level of competition, you may be fooled into thinking they are both equally skilled wrestlers. After all, they both are getting through the competition without breaking a sweat. How could you tell the difference? Now put these guys through a season of D1 wrestling and on the mat with each other, and the difference in skill between the two is very clear to see. The similar level of skill that you thought you saw before was actually an illusion.

 

It's possible that the same thing may be happening right now in D1 with Kyle Snyder and his peers. Kyle Snyder is the amateur boxer from the earlier example who was able to beat the pros. There were a lot of D1 ncaa champions who were able to dominate on their feet in college, but couldn't do the same against the top wrestlers on the senior level until years after they graduated. Snyder was able to beat the senior level guys in the U.S. and the top guys from the rest of the world as a 19 year old. This proves that Snyder has very rare skills on his feet. Who else has proven that in D1? Retherford hasn't done that yet. Last time we saw Retherford wrestle one of the best on the senior level, he was dominated. The last time being just 5 months before the start of the season. Retherford goes from being handily beat to being called "the most improved wrestler from neutral" one month into the season. He's able to make everyone at 149 look bad, but was made to look bad shortly before the season. Well, maybe Retherford has improved greatly in 5 months, that is a possibility. Maybe he's surpassed Pico and some of the other top guys on the senior freestyle ladder. With that said, he hasn't proven that yet. Snyder has proven to be among the best in the world before the start of the season and during the season when he went overseas for a few tournaments. Snyder has shown that he's on par with the very best not just the best on a significantly lower level. If Snyder continues to show this by handily beating Jake Varner or whoever else makes the finals at trials like he did last year, while others aren't able to come close to this level of success, that shows that he's on another level on his feet and that can rightfully be used as evidence about how good he is in comparison to his peers on the D1 level. 

 

To try to put all of his freestyle success in the "in another style therefore irrelevant" box is misguided.  There is a great degree of overlap between the styles. The single leg TD is still the number one scoring attack. Most of the same wrestling skills are needed to score consistently: setups, creating angles, positioning, footwork, leverage, etc. To take down the top wrestlers on the senior level requires a higher level of skill than taking down the average college kid. Yes, there are differences but that doesn't negate all of the similarities. Also, the tennis/racquetball point where you mention that no one would rank Federer #1 in tennis after he won a world racquetball title breaks down when you consider that Snyder is already the #1 ranked tennis player (following your analogy). It's not like Snyder is being put at the top of the folkstyle ladder while having never wrestled a single folkstyle match in D1 ever. Putting Snyder at the top of folk is not the same thing as putting a guy like Henry Cejudo at the top. Snyder is a two time finalist and one time NCAA champion. He's already a champion. This is not like the old Cejudo threads were it was all guesswork. We know for sure that Snyder knows how to translate all of the skills he's acquired wrestling the best to folkstyle wrestling. He's privy to all of the counters and "funk" that the average elite FS wrestler may have trouble defending.

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Hodge candidate highlights from he "2016 NCAA Wrestling Awards Recap" (Published on 3/29/16 - link below)

 

Most Dominant Wrestler

 

1...Zain Retherford -...5.00

2...Alex Dieringer -.....4.709

4...Nashon Garrett -...4.47

 

(Note: Kyle Snyder did not appear in the top 10)

 

Most Technical Falls

 

4...Zain Retherford -...8

6...Nashon Garrett -...7

10...Alex Dieringer -...6

 

(Note: Kyle Snyder did not appear in the top 10)

 

Most Falls

4...Zain Retherford -...15

6...Alex Dieringer -......11

 

(Note: Garret and Snyder did not appear in the top 10)

 

The number of techs and falls listed under the NCAA awards differ from the wrestlers' records listed by WIN magazine:

  • WIN apparently mis-recorded one of Retherford's tech falls as a regular decision. 
  • WIN credited one  more fall to Dieringer than the NCAA did.*
  • WIN credited one more tech fall to Dieringer than the NCAA did.*

* Apparently, the reason the NCAA excluded the above fall and tech fall from Dieringer's record is because they occurred against junior college competition. (Both wins occurred at the USA OK Outlaw Collegiate Tournament against wrestlers from Northeast Oklahoma A&M College, this year's National NJCAA champion.)

 

http://www.ncaa.com/news/wrestling/article/2016-03-29/2016-ncaa-wrestling-awards-recap

.

Edited by HurricaneWrestling

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"There was nothing obvious about Snyder being the best Collegiate wrestler this year."  

 

Define best.  If by best you mean the ability to hold a guy down with a spiral/claw ride and hitting tilts, then he's not.  If it means beating the best competition on every level over the course of the last year--both collegiate and beyond--he was.  

If you want to come up with a best wrestler award, I think Snyder is the landslide winner among college guys because his freestyle accomplishments are out of this world.  

 

But if you want to talk specifically about Folkstyle wrestling, I don't think he is the best pound for pound guy.  I think you could wrestle the heavyweight bracket 10 times and at least a few of those Gwiz wins.  I think You can wrestle 165 1000 times and Dieringer wins all 1000.  I don't think this means Dieringer is better, since obviously he didn't have a Gwiz in his weight, but I think it makes it debatable, and that's why I don't think you can say it's obvious he was the best collegiate wrestler this year.

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Hodge candidate highlights from he "2016 NCAA Wrestling Awards Recap" (Published on 3/29/16 - link below)

 

Most Dominant Wrestler

 

1...Zain Retherford -...5.00

2...Alex Dieringer -.....4.709

4...Nashon Garrett -...4.47

 

(Note: Kyle Snyder did not appear in the top 10)

 

Most Technical Falls

 

4...Zain Retherford -...8

6...Nashon Garrett -...7

10...Alex Dieringer -...6

 

(Note: Kyle Snyder did not appear in the top 10)

 

Most Falls

4...Zain Retherford -...15

6...Alex Dieringer -......11

 

(Note: Garret and Snyder did not appear in the top 10)

 

The number of techs and falls listed under the NCAA awards differ from the wrestlers' records listed by WIN magazine:

 

  • WIN apparently mis-recorded one of Retherford's tech falls as a regular decision.
  • WIN credited one more fall to Dieringer than the NCAA did.*
  • WIN credited one more tech fall to Dieringer than the NCAA did.*
* Apparently, the reason the NCAA excluded the above fall and tech fall from Dieringer's record is because they occurred against junior college competition. (Both wins occurred at the USA OK Outlaw Collegiate Tournament against wrestlers from Northeast Oklahoma A&M College, this year's National NJCAA champion.)

 

http://www.ncaa.com/news/wrestling/article/2016-03-29/2016-ncaa-wrestling-awards-recap

.

I really prefer this Most Dominant Wrestler Award given by NCAA, they show the criteria and actually use it.

Edited by Axe_Spartan

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Yes, but they have a very high degree of overlap in some instances, especially on the feet. Your analogy is true to a point, but it breaks down in a few key areas.. For starters, you're treating elite FS wrestling with collegiate folkstyle wrestling like they are the same thing. They aren't. Generally speaking, as a society we view each professional sport as being on the same level. That is, we treat the #1 Racquetball player in the world as being equally accomplished as the #1 Tennis player in the world. There are pretty good reasons for this, since to be the best in the world you usually have to be training full time with the best coaches at the highest competition level. That includes all grown men who are still capable of competing at a high level, not just the ones who have one of their 4 years of eligibility left and are most likely under 24 years old. The reasons for treating the accomplishment of being #1 in racquetball and tennis equivalent don't hold for elite freestyle and folkstyle wrestling. One accomplishment (ncaa champion) is a lesser accomplishment than the other (world or Olympic champion).

 

So you say "they are different sports with different competition and criteria". To be more precise, you could say they are different,yet very similar sports in key areas (especially on the feet were most points are scored at the elite level in both styles) with one sport; freestyle, having far superior competition and a much higher level of skill needed to get to the very top. This is something that is recognized by all of the greats of the sport in this country. Whether it be Brands, Smith, Cael, Gable, etc. they'll all tell you that winning at the Olympics and Worlds proves that you are the best in the world. They'll also tell you the same is not true for the NCAAs. They are well aware of the differences between the sports, but know that the sports are similar enough to  rightfully say that one requires a greater level of skill and a higher level of technique to get to the #1 spot.

 

 

 

 Like I mentioned above, the comparison using world class tennis/racquetball does not hold well when comparing world class freestyle wrestling and collegiate folkstyle wrestling. A far better example would be comparing amateur boxing to professional boxing. Although the sports are very similar, they do have various differences in rules which effect things like scoring and strategy. Still, they have a great amount of overlap so one can reasonably compare the two and consider professional boxing to be a higher level of boxing, not merely just a different type of boxing that is done at the same level. 

 

If the #1 ranked amateur boxer goes into the professional ranks and claims the #1 spot at that level, why couldn't you use that as a line of evidence to show just how good that boxer is in comparison to his peers at the amateur boxing level? Especially if his peers at the amateur level tried to accomplish the same thing but weren't capable of doing it? Skills like footwork, timing, head movement, counter punching, setting traps, walking an opponent down, punching while moving laterally and backwards, in professional boxing are more advanced than amateur olympic style boxing. If an amateur olympic boxer is able to beat all the pros at their game while his peers can't, that shows his skill level is of a higher quality. This level of skill may have been hidden from the untrained eye. Sometimes the degree of skill and talent cannot be shown if the level of competition is not high enough.

 

EX. Imagine if Zain Retherford and Alec Pantaleo both wrestled through a Vermont High school state championship bracket. What would likely happen? They both would probably breeze through the bracket picking apart all of their competition on the way to the championsip. They'd likely score on every shot, score on every turn attempt, and ultimately pin every opponent without any trouble whatsoever. If you never saw the two compete above this level of competition, you may be fooled into thinking they are both equally skilled wrestlers. After all, they both are getting through the competition without breaking a sweat. How could you tell the difference? Now put these guys through a season of D1 wrestling and on the mat with each other, and the difference in skill between the two is very clear to see. The similar level of skill that you thought you saw before was actually an illusion.

 

It's possible that the same thing may be happening right now in D1 with Kyle Snyder and his peers. Kyle Snyder is the amateur boxer from the earlier example who was able to beat the pros. There were a lot of D1 ncaa champions who were able to dominate on their feet in college, but couldn't do the same against the top wrestlers on the senior level until years after they graduated. Snyder was able to beat the senior level guys in the U.S. and the top guys from the rest of the world as a 19 year old. This proves that Snyder has very rare skills on his feet. Who else has proven that in D1? Retherford hasn't done that yet. Last time we saw Retherford wrestle one of the best on the senior level, he was dominated. The last time being just 5 months before the start of the season. Retherford goes from being handily beat to being called "the most improved wrestler from neutral" one month into the season. He's able to make everyone at 149 look bad, but was made to look bad shortly before the season. Well, maybe Retherford has improved greatly in 5 months, that is a possibility. Maybe he's surpassed Pico and some of the other top guys on the senior freestyle ladder. With that said, he hasn't proven that yet. Snyder has proven to be among the best in the world before the start of the season and during the season when he went overseas for a few tournaments. Snyder has shown that he's on par with the very best not just the best on a significantly lower level. If Snyder continues to show this by handily beating Jake Varner or whoever else makes the finals at trials like he did last year, while others aren't able to come close to this level of success, that shows that he's on another level on his feet and that can rightfully be used as evidence about how good he is in comparison to his peers on the D1 level. 

 

To try to put all of his freestyle success in the "in another style therefore irrelevant" box is misguided.  There is a great degree of overlap between the styles. The single leg TD is still the number one scoring attack. Most of the same wrestling skills are needed to score consistently: setups, creating angles, positioning, footwork, leverage, etc. To take down the top wrestlers on the senior level requires a higher level of skill than taking down the average college kid. Yes, there are differences but that doesn't negate all of the similarities. Also, the tennis/racquetball point where you mention that no one would rank Federer #1 in tennis after he won a world racquetball title breaks down when you consider that Snyder is already the #1 ranked tennis player (following your analogy). It's not like Snyder is being put at the top of the folkstyle ladder while having never wrestled a single folkstyle match in D1 ever. Putting Snyder at the top of folk is not the same thing as putting a guy like Henry Cejudo at the top. Snyder is a two time finalist and one time NCAA champion. He's already a champion. This is not like the old Cejudo threads were it was all guesswork. We know for sure that Snyder knows how to translate all of the skills he's acquired wrestling the best to folkstyle wrestling. He's privy to all of the counters and "funk" that the average elite FS wrestler may have trouble defending.

 

This post is far too long to expect anyone to read and consider. Posting with more brief summaries may be a better approach

Edited by rstrong

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Many ways to define dominance...two different wrestling styles, two different styles of dominance. 

 

I vote we give Zain his much deserved  "2015-2016 Top Bonus Percentage and Most Pins in 2016 Award" 

 

Ding gets the "2015-2016 most first period pins and most pins under one minute award" 

 

 

Since It's WIN Mags award, they can give it to who they want to.  Since it apparently doesn't apply just to current year, they should not promote it as comparing to Heisman.  Its more like a Time Magazine "Man of the Year" award.

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