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Foley's mailbag...

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Another week and another edition of Foley's mailbag. This WRESTLING blog has a lot of interesting points but in all editions there are bjj videos. This is wrong. United World Wrestling has Grappling as ground oriented style and there is also catch as catch wrestling, the grandfather of freestyle and folkstyle but Foley ignore it....

Edited by WreslingSuperior

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Another week and another edition of Foley's mailbag. This WRESTLING blog has a lot of interesting points but in all editions there are bjj videos. This is wrong. United World Wrestling has Grappling as ground oriented style and there is also catch as catch wrestling, the grandfather of freestyle and folkstyle but Foley ignore it....

 

FILA Grappling is a joke, as is Catch Wrestling. They are to BJJ what Cornish Wrestling is to Freestyle. 

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Also Barnett and the Gracie hunter Sakuraba. Two catch wrestlers....

Josh won a bjj world championship.

 

Russian Grappling team trains beside freestyle/greco roman team and it has an economic support by sport minister. It is official recognised by sport accord and IOC contrary to bjj.

Edited by WreslingSuperior

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BJJ is as or more legit a martial art than wrestling. Let's not denigrate other arts to try to put wrestling on a pedestal. In the end, wrestling is a sport modified to prevent serious injury. BJJ is designed to either knock guys out through asphyxiation or cripple them by breaking their limbs. It is absolutely not a joke.

 

If BJJ is a joke, then what does that make wrestling? They are both among the most effective martial arts, one focused on taking guys down and the other on submitting them. They are very complementary and any fighter who ignores either one does so at his own peril.

Edited by wrestlingnerd

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Wrestling was born with submission. Greek wrestling was a submission style. Catch wrestling is a submission style and now Grappling is a submission style. Bjj suck and the ufc 1-12 is the proof. Olympic Wrestling won more editions than bjj. Facts not opinions!

Edited by WreslingSuperior

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Hard to say BJJ sucks when all these top wrestlers in MMA train it regularly. Cormier, Jones, Weidman ,  Romero, Hendricks, Cain etc all have a BJJ coach and have recieved belts in that discipline, none of them have a catch wrestling or UWW/FILA grappling coach. If BJJ sucked then that would not be the case. 

 

Anyway both Wrestling and BJJ are legit. I personally think BJJ is very boring to watch from a spectator standpoint but you have to take it seriously as a fighting style. 

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Lundell is a mma coach and Grappling coach. Askren and Tate are two Grappling medalists. Nutmagomedov, Bagautinov and others Russians have Grappling experience. Liborio, the ATT chief, was the USA coach for Grappling and he is also a Grappling coach. Bjj is a GI style. No GI submission style is called Grappling according to John Danaher. Barnett and Erick Paulson are Catch Wrestling coaches...

Neil Melanson is one of the best mma grappling coach and he is a catch wrestler. Couture have also extensive catch wrestling training...

Edited by WreslingSuperior

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Just because serious grapplers have done FILA Grappling does not mean the grappling community takes it seriously. It might be an opportunity to win a tournament, promote your name, but the only BJJ tournaments that truly matter are ADCC and black belt gi worlds. 

 

Barnett has trained BJJ extensively, as has his coach. Sakuraba was a freestyle wrestler. You can find hundreds of legit grapplers that have ONLY ever done BJJ, or Judo, or Free/Folk/Greco, but you'll never find a good grappler that has only done catch. Why? Because it's a marketing gimmick. If it ever was legit, and the history is shady on that, it certainly isn't now. 

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It's hard to take anyone who calls BJJ a "joke" seriously. Facts, not opinions?? Ask any serious wrestler who's rolled with a BJJ blue belt, let alone black belt, for the first time how much of a joke BJJ is. Even the most elite wrestlers will be tapping out repeatedly their first try at BJJ. It is absolutely not a joke and very much wrestling's equal and complement in martial arts.

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Wrestling was born with submission. Greek wrestling was a submission style. Catch wrestling is a submission style and now Grappling is a submission style. Bjj suck and the ufc 1-12 is the proof. Olympic Wrestling won more editions than bjj. Facts not opinions!

 

Do you realize that grappling is a genre which has species like Jiu-jitsu, Judo, Sambo, Catch wrestling, Freestyle wrestling, etc?

 

I really like some of your posts, but it's annoying you trying to downplay a style to magnify another one, you don't need to do that. But since you use UFC 1-12 as evidence, you have to realize that a wrestler won those tourneys only once when there was a jiu-jitsu representative (UFC 9, Amaury Bitetti losing to Don Frye). Royce won the tourney twice with wrestling represensatives (Ken Shamrock and Dan Severn). How about Randleman tasting his first defeat at the hands of Carlos Barreto by triangle choke? Frank Mir beating Lesnar when this one was not taking jiu-jitsu classes with Comprido? It's not like jiu-jitsu guys have not lost to wrestling guys, my point is it's impossible to make a point that wrestling is "superior", especially when a jiu-jitsu guy has proven himself against wrestlers on UFC 1 and 3, aside of other examples.

 

Both arts are very valuable nowadays with cross training, but between 2 guys with same weight with only one martial art style (wrestling guy vs. jiu-jitsu guy), I would take the jiu-jitsu guy most times because of submissions. It's like putting Buchecha against Taha Akgul on a mma scenario, who do you think would win the most?

 

Mark Schultz already said, nothing beats wrestling, except Jiu Jitsu. Are you going to say to Schultz that bjj is a joke?

 

At the end, there is no superior art, there is the superior fighter, that one who cross train between disciplines, because there isn't a perfect martial art style.

Edited by Axe_Spartan

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It's hard to take anyone who calls BJJ a "joke" seriously. Facts, not opinions?? Ask any serious wrestler who's rolled with a BJJ blue belt, let alone black belt, for the first time how much of a joke BJJ is. Even the most elite wrestlers will be tapping out repeatedly their first try at BJJ. It is absolutely not a joke and very much wrestling's equal and complement in martial arts.

silly point. why would anyone expect someone with no training in one discipline be able to hang with someone who has consistent training in their discipline?

 

i suspect you're referencing if the 2 started in the guard. a bjj match starts on their feet. a wrestler with even limited sub defense is often competitive with blue belts.

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silly point. why would anyone expect someone with no training in one discipline be able to hang with someone who has consistent training in their discipline?

 

i suspect you're referencing if the 2 started in the guard. a bjj match starts on their feet. a wrestler with even limited sub defense is often competitive with blue belts.

I'm referencing a fight. If you think my point is silly, you've never been in a real fight against a BJJ guy. He would tear you to pieces if all you had was wrestling. Wrestling is a sport. It doesn't teach you to finish people, just how to take them down. You don't get points for TDs or exposure in a fight. What are you going to do against a submission specialist once you're on the ground? Tap, that's what!!

 

This entire thread is "silly", as you call it.

Edited by wrestlingnerd

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Schultz is a slave of marketing. Wrestler has a record of title winners in the entire ufc history and yes in ufc 1-12. You can see the first wrestler only in ufc 4 and royce had a lot of mma experience contrary to all opponents...

 

Phil Davis: "Wrestling is a much stronger art form than Brazilian jiu-jitsu."

Edited by WreslingSuperior

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the talent pool in most grappling disciplines, bjj or catch, is shallow. as a result a wrestler can step in with less training and be competitive. the reverse is rarely seen.

 

While I agree that the talent pool is deeper in wrestling, grappling is grappling. That said, low to mid level wrestlers in bjj and mma have excelled whereas some stars have fizzled. It depends on style and commitment. Truth be told, for 99% of people in jiu jitsu in the US or Brazil, if they had the talent, they would be wrestling or doing judo.

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Back to the point of the original post, wrestling needs to ask itself why jiu jitsu is doing such an astronomically better job getting and keeping people on the mat outside of the 15-22 year old male demographic. Even judo in the united states beats wrestling in this sense. Or why even those close to UWW fail to be engaged by FILA Grappling or other submission styles, such as catch.

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Josh Barnett recent post on his facebook page about being a black belt in BJJ

 

Original post above

 

“Yes, I have a BJJ Black Belt, But it’s not what you think.

 

First off I don’t train in BJJ, I almost never put on a gi (Only to teach or help Erik assist), and I stick by my training in Catch Wrestling and it’s concepts. When I step on the mats of Metamoris or in the UFC cage, I am walking in on the back of my Catch Wrestling style. I don’t practice a bunch of guard work, sweeps, or limit my submission work to any BJJ derived conceptual rule base. I don’t do BJJ. Period. However…

 

In 2009 Erik Paulson, endorsed by Rigan Machado, presented me with a Black Belt in BJJ. I was Incredibly surprised and a bit shocked, see I have never, NEVER trained in the art of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. I didn’t start out a simple white belt and work my way up the ranks and eventually grind into a black belt. But there is a method to the apparent madness here.

 

I can’t say I was entirely unfamiliar with the gi or Kimono as it is also called. When I was a freshman in high school a coach and mentor of mine directed me to train in Judo at the Budokan Dojo in South Seattle under Burt Mackie and John Schaedler and I spent around a year and a half training there. It was there I first learned about the guard/bottom scissor position. I continued doing Judo training with Sensei Jim Harrison at his Bushidokan Dojo in Missoula Montana while I attended university. From there I hardly ever donned my Judo gi except for very rare occasions at AMC Pankration when we would put them on to wrestle with as a training variant. When I say rare I mean a handful of times over the 8 years I was there. I wouldn’t wear a gi again until 2009, showing up to compete in a no-gi tournament and having it all changed to a gi tourney upon my arrival.

 

I approached the promoter and said I was here to sign up for the no-gi tournament and he gave me a surprised look. I asked who else was here to compete as I was curious which of the gi guys that were grappling at the moment were going to do the no-gi absolute. He responded “We’re not sure if it’s going to be gi or no-gi.”

 

And I piped up right away, “That’s not what it said on your flyer.”

“Well…give me a minute.”

 

He went to gather all who would enter the absolute and brought us close in off the side.

 

“Ok, we have decided we are going to take a vote.” he starts. “Who wants the absolute to be no-gi?” Alone, I raise my hand.

 

“Ok. Who wants in to be gi?” and the rest of the group raises their hands with one even looking right at me and saying “Sorry bro! I just want to increase my chances.”

 

I didn’t even own a gi.

 

I was lucky enough that Break Point was there and was willing to sponsor me with a gi right on the spot. Since I had never trained BJJ I had no real ranking and this was supposed to be a “Black Belt Absolute” division. I had won the no-gi worlds previously in the Black Belt division but still, I didn’t do BJJ so I technically had no rank. I tried to get a white belt to compete in and some of the tournament staff said there was no way that was going to happen. So Chris Hauter belts me a Black Belt honorarily for the tournament, I warm up with some uchikome on my buddy Victor and I am ready to go. I lost in the finals in a controversial referee decision but I didn’t get up in arms over it since my philosophy was if I didn’t tap them then I couldn’t get mad at the results. The brackets were filled with high

level, world champion guys and I proved that putting a jacket didn’t prevent my ability to wrestle and be successful.

 

PS

Lesnar won a rematch with Mir. In the first fight Lesnar was a wwe wrestlers with only one mma fight. Lesnar was submitted but dominate the fight until the submission and destroyed Mir in the rematch.

 

Shamrock score a draw in a rematch and Severn challenged Royce but the Brazilian refused!!!

Edited by WreslingSuperior

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UFC 1-12 history

 

UFC 1 : Royce Gracie (bjj)

UFC 2 : Royce Gracie (bjj)

UFC 3 : Steve Jennum (ninjutsu)

UFC 4 : Royce Gracie (bjj) ----> first wrestler INVITED

UFC 5 : Dan Severn (wrestling)

UFC 6 : Oleg Taktarov (sambo)

UFC 7 : Marco Ruas (luta livre)

UFC 8 : Don Frye (wrestling)

UFC 9 : Mark Schultz (wrestling) ; Don Frye (wrestling) ; Rafael Carino (bjj), Mark Hall (tkd), Cal Worsham (tkd), Steve Nelmark (karate).

UFC 10 : Mark Coleman (wrestling)

UFC 11 : Mark Coleman (wrestling)

UFC 12 : Hw, Mark Coleman (wrestling) ; Lw, Jerry Bohlander (wrestling)

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Josh Barnett recent post on his facebook page about being a black belt in BJJ

 

Original post above

 

“Yes, I have a BJJ Black Belt, But it’s not what you think.

 

First off I don’t train in BJJ, I almost never put on a gi (Only to teach or help Erik assist), and I stick by my training in Catch Wrestling and it’s concepts. When I step on the mats of Metamoris or in the UFC cage, I am walking in on the back of my Catch Wrestling style. I don’t practice a bunch of guard work, sweeps, or limit my submission work to any BJJ derived conceptual rule base. I don’t do BJJ. Period. However…

 

In 2009 Erik Paulson, endorsed by Rigan Machado, presented me with a Black Belt in BJJ. I was Incredibly surprised and a bit shocked, see I have never, NEVER trained in the art of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. I didn’t start out a simple white belt and work my way up the ranks and eventually grind into a black belt. But there is a method to the apparent madness here.

 

I can’t say I was entirely unfamiliar with the gi or Kimono as it is also called. When I was a freshman in high school a coach and mentor of mine directed me to train in Judo at the Budokan Dojo in South Seattle under Burt Mackie and John Schaedler and I spent around a year and a half training there. It was there I first learned about the guard/bottom scissor position. I continued doing Judo training with Sensei Jim Harrison at his Bushidokan Dojo in Missoula Montana while I attended university. From there I hardly ever donned my Judo gi except for very rare occasions at AMC Pankration when we would put them on to wrestle with as a training variant. When I say rare I mean a handful of times over the 8 years I was there. I wouldn’t wear a gi again until 2009, showing up to compete in a no-gi tournament and having it all changed to a gi tourney upon my arrival.

 

I approached the promoter and said I was here to sign up for the no-gi tournament and he gave me a surprised look. I asked who else was here to compete as I was curious which of the gi guys that were grappling at the moment were going to do the no-gi absolute. He responded “We’re not sure if it’s going to be gi or no-gi.”

 

And I piped up right away, “That’s not what it said on your flyer.”

“Well…give me a minute.”

 

He went to gather all who would enter the absolute and brought us close in off the side.

 

“Ok, we have decided we are going to take a vote.” he starts. “Who wants the absolute to be no-gi?” Alone, I raise my hand.

 

“Ok. Who wants in to be gi?” and the rest of the group raises their hands with one even looking right at me and saying “Sorry bro! I just want to increase my chances.”

 

I didn’t even own a gi.

 

I was lucky enough that Break Point was there and was willing to sponsor me with a gi right on the spot. Since I had never trained BJJ I had no real ranking and this was supposed to be a “Black Belt Absolute” division. I had won the no-gi worlds previously in the Black Belt division but still, I didn’t do BJJ so I technically had no rank. I tried to get a white belt to compete in and some of the tournament staff said there was no way that was going to happen. So Chris Hauter belts me a Black Belt honorarily for the tournament, I warm up with some uchikome on my buddy Victor and I am ready to go. I lost in the finals in a controversial referee decision but I didn’t get up in arms over it since my philosophy was if I didn’t tap them then I couldn’t get mad at the results. The brackets were filled with high

level, world champion guys and I proved that putting a jacket didn’t prevent my ability to wrestle and be successful.

 

PS

Lesnar won a rematch with Mir. Lesnar was a wwe wrestling with one mma fight.

 

Shamrock score a draw in a rematch and Severn challenged Royce but the Brazilian refused!!!

 

Barnett is trying to sell himself and his products with his catch gimmick. He might claim to have never trained BJJ, but Erik Paulson's style is heavily influenced by the positions and philosophies of Gracie/Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. I'm also certain the vast majority of his training partners over the year were not "catch wrestlers" either. And Jiu Jitsu is not the gi, the gi is just a tool that allows for different techniques. At end of the day though, many of these distinctions are dubious, because as long as you compete full contact in a relatively open ruleset, most of the winning techniques/solutions will look very much alike regardless of the perspective from which you started.

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Schultz is a slave of marketing. Wrestler has a record of title winners in the entire ufc history and yes in ufc 1-12. You can see the first wrestler only in ufc 4 and royce had a lot of mma experience contrary to all opponents...

 

Phil Davis: "Wrestling is a much stronger art form than Brazilian jiu-jitsu."

 

Actually it was UFC 1 and 4 when Royce beat those wrestlers, just rectifying my above post.

 

Phil Davis comes from wrestling, what would you expect him to say? It's different from Schultz who comes from wrestling saying this about jiu-jitsu.

 

 

PS

Lesnar won a rematch with Mir. Lesnar was a wwe wrestlers with one mma fight.

 

Shamrock score a draw in a rematch and Severn challenged Royce but the Brazilian refused!!!

 

Yes, Lesnar won a rematch when he started training jiu-jitsu with Comprido after his first fight against Mir.

 

Are you kidding me? Severn challenged Royce in 2011 when both were old and past their primes, it's like Royce beating Shamrock now, it doesn't prove any point.

 

 

While I agree that the talent pool is deeper in wrestling, grappling is grappling. That said, low to mid level wrestlers in bjj and mma have excelled whereas some stars have fizzled. It depends on style and commitment. Truth be told, for 99% of people in jiu jitsu in the US or Brazil, if they had the talent, they would be wrestling or doing judo.

 

This is not true in Brazil.

Edited by Axe_Spartan

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MMA fights are contested without clothes to grab.  If they were contested in a gi, or a military uniform, or a tracksuit, then judo and other gi-disciplines would probably be more effective.  Wrestling works with or without clothes -- but better without.

 

With regard to wrestling's effectiveness as a martial art, the fact that it is a sport that has been modified to prevent injury has its benefits.  Because you can't end a match from an inferior position (like in grappling), wrestling teaches you to continuously fight for dominant position.  That training would come in handy for a real fight.  Of course you need more than just wrestling to be a competent fighter, though.

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UFC 1-12 history

 

UFC 1 : Royce Gracie (bjj)

UFC 2 : Royce Gracie (bjj)

UFC 3 : Steve Jennum (ninjutsu)

UFC 4 : Royce Gracie (bjj) ----> first wrestler INVITED

UFC 5 : Dan Severn (wrestling)

UFC 6 : Oleg Taktarov (sambo)

UFC 7 : Marco Ruas (luta livre)

UFC 8 : Don Frye (wrestling)

UFC 9 : Mark Schultz (wrestling) ; Don Frye (wrestling) ; Rafael Carino (bjj), Mark Hall (tkd), Cal Worsham (tkd), Steve Nelmark (karate).

UFC 10 : Mark Coleman (wrestling)

UFC 11 : Mark Coleman (wrestling)

UFC 12 : Hw, Mark Coleman (wrestling) ; Lw, Jerry Bohlander (wrestling)

 

Shamrock was a wrestler and he lost to Royce on UFC 1, don't be so biased.

 

The only wrestler guy vs. bjj guy after UFC 4 which a wrestler won was Don Frye vs. Amauri Bitteti.

 

UFC 12: Why haven't you mentioned Vitor Belfort winning the HW tourney?

 

 

Stop with that, both are amazing arts. Wrestling is not superior compared to bjj and bjj is not superior compared to wrestling.

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