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Actually it was UFC 1 and 4 when Royce beat those wrestlers, just rectifying my above post.

 

Phil Davis comes from wrestling, what would you expect him to say? It's different from Schultz who comes from wrestling saying this about jiu-jitsu.

 

 

 

Yes, Lesnar won a rematch when he started training jiu-jitsu with Comprido after his first fight against Mir.

 

Are you kidding me? Severn challenged Royce in 2011 when both were old and past their primes, it's like Royce beating Shamrock now, it doesn't prove any point.

 

 

 

This is not true in Brazil.

 

Yeah it is dude. Nobody that is an Olympic level athlete is choosing BJJ over Judo in Brazil, just like nobody that is Olympic level in Russia is choosing Sambo over Judo.

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MMA fights are contested without clothes to grab.  If they were contested in a gi, or a military uniform, or a tracksuit, then judo and other gi-disciplines would probably be more effective.  Wrestling works with or without clothes -- but better without.

 

With regard to wrestling's effectiveness as a martial art, the fact that it is a sport that has been modified to prevent injury has its benefits.  Because you can't end a match from an inferior position (like in grappling), wrestling teaches you to continuously fight for dominant position.  That training would come in handy for a real fight.  Of course you need more than just wrestling to be a competent fighter, though.

 

Judo had to ban certain grips, limit times for others, and ultimately ban leg grabs for a reason. Not to say jacket wrestling doesn't develop extremely valuable skills for MMA, but Judo is extremely artificial at this point.

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Yeah it is dude. Nobody that is an Olympic level athlete is choosing BJJ over Judo in Brazil, just like nobody that is Olympic level in Russia is choosing Sambo over Judo.

 

I live in Brazil, I know what I'm talking about. Here judo and BJJ are both very popular, there is no such thing as a "olympic level athlete" choosing Judo over bjj, it just depends of what you like the most to keep training.

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Actually it was UFC 1 and 4 when Royce beat those wrestlers, just rectifying my above post.

 

Phil Davis comes from wrestling, what would you expect him to say? It's different from Schultz who comes from wrestling saying this about jiu-jitsu.

 

 

 

Yes, Lesnar won a rematch when he started training jiu-jitsu with Comprido after his first fight against Mir.

 

Are you kidding me? Severn challenged Royce in 2011 when both were old and past their primes, it's like Royce beating Shamrock now, it doesn't prove any point.

 

 

 

This is not true in Brazil.

You need to see the entire ufc 5 and the challenge of Dan Severn after his victory.

Lesnar was in his FIRST match in the cage and Mir was a champion! Mir has WRESTLING background. After he stated with jj so he was simply a much complete fighter than Lesnar...

wrestling has a record of winners in ufc 1-12 and in the entire UFC history. Facts not opinions.

 

PS

 

Jerry Bohlander defeated the 6 th degree bjj black belt Gurgel during ufc 8

Edited by WreslingSuperior

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I live in Brazil, I know what I'm talking about. Here judo and BJJ are both very popular, there is no such thing as a "olympic level athlete" choosing Judo over bjj, it just depends of what you like the most to keep training.

 

So you live in Brazil but you've never heard of Flavio Canto?

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Judo had to ban certain grips, limit times for others, and ultimately ban leg grabs for a reason. Not to say jacket wrestling doesn't develop extremely valuable skills for MMA, but Judo is extremely artificial at this point.

I agree, but those changes are pretty recent, right?  Other than Rousey, what judokas have had success at MMA ever?  The lack of grips has to have something to do with that.  I'm not sure if there is money at the top of the game in judo -- that would be another reason that you don't see judo players having success.

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I agree, but those changes are pretty recent, right?  Other than Rousey, what judokas have had success at MMA ever?  The lack of grips has to have something to do with that.  I'm not sure if there is money at the top of the game in judo -- that would be another reason that you don't see judo players having success.

 

Leg grabs yes, but lots of the gripping restrictions started to appear when the Soviets appeared on the scene decades ago with unorthodox Sambo inspired grips.

 

Other than Rousey? Fedor for one, Karo. 

 

You will see less and less "BJJ" guys in MMA as sport bjj and mma continue to diverge, but in rulesets and tactics, and as MMA becomes its own discipline. 

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You need to see the entire ufc 5 and the challenge of Dan Severn after his victory.

Lesnar was in his FIRST match in the cage and Mir was a champion! Mir has WRESTLING background. After he stated with jj so he was simply a much complete fighter than Lesnar...

wrestling has a record of winners in ufc 1-12 and in the entire UFC history. Facts not opinions.

 

PS

 

Jerry Bohlander defeated the 6 th degree bjj black belt Gurgel during ufc 8

 

I didn't see this challenge, but really, what this proves?

 

Mir is a bjj guy first and foremost, he beat Lesnar using a kneebar in 1:30. Just watch the fight and try to see if he used anything other than his bjj.

 

I missed Bohlander beating Gurgel, so this makes 2x2 on the first 12 editions of UFC, does this make any art superior compared to another? No.

 

So you live in Brazil but you've never heard of Flavio Canto?

 

Flavio Canto is a guy who chose to practice judo and happens to have one of the most amazing newazas in the history of the sport. What does this has to do with him not going after a bjj career? Tiago Camilo is another judo player who has a amazing newaza. They went after it because they are judo guys, they didn't chose judo over bjj because they are "olympic level athletes".

Edited by Axe_Spartan

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I didn't see this challenge, but really, what this proves?

 

Mir is a bjj guy first and foremost, he beat Lesnar using a kneebar in 1:30. Just watch the fight and try to see if he used anything other than his bjj.

 

I missed Bohlander beating Gurgel, so this makes 2x2 on the first 12 editions of UFC, does this make any art superior compared to another? No.

 

 

Flavio Canto is a guy who chose to practice judo and happens to have one of the most amazing newazas in the history of the sport. What does this has to do with him not going after a bjj career? Tiago Camilo is another judo player who has a amazing newaza. They are judo guys, they went after it because they are good at it, they didn't chose judo over bjj because they are "olympic level athletes".

 

Not really sure the point in replying if you think there are people that would chose being a BJJ "world" champion over Olympian, let alone Olympic medalist or champion. I'm not sure the precise reward structure for being a world class athlete in an Olympic sport in Brazil, but I know for a fact that beyond there being no prize money for IBJJF events (pans and worlds), you have to PAY to compete. Not to mention the astronomically higher prestige when comparing the Olympics to "Mundials"

Edited by NotReady

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It is curious that the Brazilian Wrestling federation hasn't a grappling team...but I think that the president is scared by the Russian team.

 

Probably for the same reason Russia doesn't have an American Folkstyle wrestling team. 

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Are you sure? The Brazilian wrestling president is also a JJ black belt.

 

The point you seem to fail to grasp is that nobody in jiu jitsu takes FILA Grappling seriously, or about as seriously as most wrestlers do Beach Wrestling. 

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It is curious that the Brazilian Wrestling federation hasn't a grappling team...but I think that the president is scared by the Russian team.

 

It's because Brazil is so weak in No Gi events, that's why brazilians are so weak on ADCC and No Gi Worlds.

 

Not really sure the point in replying if you think there are people that would chose being a BJJ "world" champion over Olympian, let alone Olympic medalist or champion. I'm not sure the precise reward structure for being a world class athlete in an Olympic sport in Brazil, but I know for a fact that beyond there being no prize money for IBJJF events (pans and worlds), you have to PAY to compete. Not to mention the astronomically higher prestige when comparing the Olympics to "Mundials"

 

Believe me, being a campeão mundial (world champion) on BJJ for a bjj guy is like being a olympic champion for a judo or wrestling guy. A bjj guy here doesn't think "oh, I wish I was a olympic champion on another sport", this is not the mindset here.

Edited by Axe_Spartan

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It's because Brazil is so weak in No Gi events, that's why brazilians are so weak on ADCC and No Gi Worlds.

 

 

Believe me, being a campeão mundial (world champion) on BJJ for a bjj guy is like being a olympic champion for a judo or wrestling guy. A bjj guy here doesn't think "oh, I wish I was a olympic champion on another sport", this is not the mindset here.

 

No, it's like the difference between being a NCAA Champ and a World Champ - no matter what a delusional jiu jitsu practitioner or fan might think. 

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No, it's like the difference between being a NCAA Champ and a World Champ - no matter what a delusional jiu jitsu practitioner or fan might think. 

 

You just don't get the overall mindset here. An olympic champion in judo will be as much accomplished as a bjj guy with a world championship for a bjj guy here, that's the mindset I'm trying to explain to you and somehow you think you are right. Flavio Canto and Tiago Camillo didn't choose judo over bjj because they had a shot at the olympics, they chose it because they started with it and kept doing it. I've never seen a brazilian choosing judo over bjj because he had a shot at the olympics.

Edited by Axe_Spartan

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Lundell is a mma coach and Grappling coach. Askren and Tate are two Grappling medalists. Nutmagomedov, Bagautinov and others Russians have Grappling experience. Liborio, the ATT chief, was the USA coach for Grappling and he is also a Grappling coach. Bjj is a GI style. No GI submission style is called Grappling according to John Danaher. Barnett and Erick Paulson are Catch Wrestling coaches...

Neil Melanson is one of the best mma grappling coach and he is a catch wrestler. Couture have also extensive catch wrestling training...

 

Here's the thing, you're saying BJJ sucks. When I think of the word sucks I think of those fake Chinese martial arts with the 70 year old man pretending to throw around a gang of people. 

 

 

Stuff like this, which would never work in real life. Your average guy who lifts weights in the gym would kill a black belt in Kiai and styles like it.

 

Now onto BJJ, does it have as much success in MMA as wrestling? No, there's more champs from a wrestling base than from BJJ. But that doesn't mean BJJ sucks, it's still an effective style. There's currently 4 UFC champs with a wrestling base and 2 with a BJJ base, 5 wrestling champs if you count women's MMA but in my opinion that is a joke of a sport. So a sport that has produced many champions in full contact fighting and has two currently can not be called a joke. Probably not as good of a base of wrestling but a joke? No. And of course a lot of success in MMA depends on the athlete themselves and not the base as much, Jake Rosholt a 3 X NCAA champ was terrible at MMA, as was a guy like BJJ guy like Vinny Magalhaes. 

 

As for Josh Barnett, i've seen some of the fighters he coaches. They are terrible even by women's MMA low standards.  

Edited by Shiraz123

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Crazy argument, certainly wrestling and bjj bring much to the table in regards to MMA and overall self defense.  I wrestled ,most of my life, was a D1 starter for 3 years.  I started training in bjj in the late 90s, and earned a brown belt. I competed in many events, always no gi, and never felt completely comfortable in a gi. i stopped training due to severe neck injuries.

Within 6 months of training, I was more than holding my own with brown and black belts in bjj (no gi).  I felt it was much easier to take a guy with a solid wrestling background, and learn the various submissions (and how to avoid), than it was to take a guy who had trained in bjj for a long time and expect them to have anywhere near the overall control and ground skills of an accomplished wrestler.

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Here's the thing, you're saying BJJ sucks. When I think of the word sucks I think of those fake Chinese martial arts with the 70 year old man pretending to throw around a gang of people. 

 

 

Stuff like this, which would never work in real life. Your average guy who lifts weights in the gym would kill a black belt in Kiai and styles like it.

 

Now onto BJJ, does it have as much success in MMA as wrestling? No, there's more champs from a wrestling base than from BJJ. But that doesn't mean BJJ sucks, it's still an effective style. There's currently 4 UFC champs with a wrestling base and 2 with a BJJ base, 5 wrestling champs if you count women's MMA but in my opinion that is a joke of a sport. So a sport that has produced many champions in full contact fighting and has two currently can not be called a joke. Probably not as good of a base of wrestling but a joke? No. And of course a lot of success in MMA depends on the athlete themselves and not the base as much, Jake Rosholt a 3 X NCAA champ was terrible at MMA, as was a guy like BJJ guy like Vinny Magalhaes. 

 

As for Josh Barnett, i've seen some of the fighters he coaches. They are terrible even by women's MMA low standards.  

 

I agree with you that wrestling is the best base for MMA. But what wrestlingsuperior doesn't understand is that doesn't make wrestling superior to bjj, especially when 99% of MMA fighters practices jiu-jitsu to know how to attack and defend themselves once on the ground. And about the "joke" part, that's actually a joke, Rafael dos Anjos comes from jiu-jitsu and is the champion of one the most stacked division (if not the most one) in the UFC.

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Crazy argument, certainly wrestling and bjj bring much to the table in regards to MMA and overall self defense.  I wrestled ,most of my life, was a D1 starter for 3 years.  I started training in bjj in the late 90s, and earned a brown belt. I competed in many events, always no gi, and never felt completely comfortable in a gi. i stopped training due to severe neck injuries.

Within 6 months of training, I was more than holding my own with brown and black belts in bjj (no gi).  I felt it was much easier to take a guy with a solid wrestling background, and learn the various submissions (and how to avoid), than it was to take a guy who had trained in bjj for a long time and expect them to have anywhere near the overall control and ground skills of an accomplished wrestler.

 

I got your point and couldn't agree more with you, but this is actually different than a wrestling guy with no training in jiu-jitsu vs. a jiu-jitsu guy with no training in wrestling.

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I got your point and couldn't agree more with you, but this is actually different than a wrestling guy with no training in jiu-jitsu vs. a jiu-jitsu guy with no training in wrestling.

I loved training in bjj, it was such a change from folkstyle wrestling.  They compliment each other very well.

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Back to the point of the original post, wrestling needs to ask itself why jiu jitsu is doing such an astronomically better job getting and keeping people on the mat outside of the 15-22 year old male demographic. Even judo in the united states beats wrestling in this sense. Or why even those close to UWW fail to be engaged by FILA Grappling or other submission styles, such as catch.

bjj is doing an astronomically better job keeping people on the mat because older people can physically manage bjj. it's less physically demanding. then again so is golf. Edited by gutfirst

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I agree with you that wrestling is the best base for MMA. But what wrestlingsuperior doesn't understand is that doesn't make wrestling superior to bjj, especially when 99% of MMA fighters practices jiu-jitsu to know how to attack and defend themselves once on the ground. And about the "joke" part, that's actually a joke, Rafael dos Anjos comes from jiu-jitsu and is the champion of one the most stacked division (if not the most one) in the UFC.

 

I agree, wrestlers seem to learn the various aspects of MMA better in general that fighters of other disciplines, although there are obviously many exceptions. But the key line is learn the other aspects of MMA. Pure wrestling will not get you anywhere in MMA, in fact a pure wrestler gets tapped very easily. In a street fight maybe you could slam a guy and end it there but not in a cage with a mat. And yes I know there have been knock outs off slams and takedowns in MMA before someone links them, i'm just talking about in most cases. So yes if you throw a pure wrestler  in there with someone who knows submissions then the wrestler is going to lose. I don't see why anyone here would argue otherwise. But you give that wrestler some time to learn MMA and he will probably be better in the long run. The Akgul/Buchecha example is a good one. 

 

My point basically is wrestling in the long run is probably better, but pure wrestling can not be called a superior martial art to other grappling styles like BJJ from the very start. The athlete needs to gain experience in the other aspects first. 

Edited by Shiraz123

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