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WreslingSuperior

Foley's mailbag...

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Here's the thing, you're saying BJJ sucks. When I think of the word sucks I think of those fake Chinese martial arts with the 70 year old man pretending to throw around a gang of people.

 

 

Stuff like this, which would never work in real life. Your average guy who lifts weights in the gym would kill a black belt in Kiai and styles like it.

 

Now onto BJJ, does it have as much success in MMA as wrestling? No, there's more champs from a wrestling base than from BJJ. But that doesn't mean BJJ sucks, it's still an effective style. There's currently 4 UFC champs with a wrestling base and 2 with a BJJ base, 5 wrestling champs if you count women's MMA but in my opinion that is a joke of a sport. So a sport that has produced many champions in full contact fighting and has two currently can not be called a joke. Probably not as good of a base of wrestling but a joke? No. And of course a lot of success in MMA depends on the athlete themselves and not the base as much, Jake Rosholt a 3 X NCAA champ was terrible at MMA, as was a guy like BJJ guy like Vinny Magalhaes.

 

As for Josh Barnett, i've seen some of the fighters he coaches. They are terrible even by women's MMA low standards.

I'm agree.

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The point you seem to fail to grasp is that nobody in jiu jitsu takes FILA Grappling seriously, or about as seriously as most wrestlers do Beach Wrestling.

Are you sure?

 

According to Flograppling :

 

"Pedro Gama Filho is the president of the Brazilian Wrestling Federation (BWF), and he’s also a black belt in jiu-jitsu: “Brazil did not send a team as our annual planning is done in the middle of the previous year - for instance, 2015 was done in the middle of 2014, when grappling was completely out of the UWW,” he says. 

 

For Brazil, it was simply a case of bad timing. 

 

“The re-inclusion of grappling came in January when we already had a huge schedule for the year, including organizing a world championship.” 

 

"

 

In Grappling you can't jump in the close guard (-1 point). Grappling has a better ruleset then nogi version of JJ.

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And about the "joke" part, that's actually a joke, Rafael dos Anjos comes from jiu-jitsu and is the champion of one the most stacked division (if not the most one) in the UFC.

And 100% of mma fighters train wrestling.

 

Dos Anjos was dismantled by Nurmagomedov a strong russian fighter with freestyle wrestling background. He is the best in the division...

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Are you sure?

 

According to Flograppling :

 

"Pedro Gama Filho is the president of the Brazilian Wrestling Federation (BWF), and he’s also a black belt in jiu-jitsu: “Brazil did not send a team as our annual planning is done in the middle of the previous year - for instance, 2015 was done in the middle of 2014, when grappling was completely out of the UWW,” he says. 

 

For Brazil, it was simply a case of bad timing. 

 

“The re-inclusion of grappling came in January when we already had a huge schedule for the year, including organizing a world championship.” 

 

"

 

In Grappling you can't jump in the close guard (-1 point). Grappling has a better ruleset then nogi version of JJ.

 

Pedro, who is a friend of mine, is involved with UWW as you should know, of course he would send a grappling team for a UWW grappling championships. Really, jiu-jitsu fighters don't take FILA (UWW) grappling seriously, and it's not because of the rule of not jumping guard, they just prefer to focus in ADCC or No Gi Worlds. I've never seen a guy here talking about UWW (or FILA) world grappling championships.

 

 

And 100% of mma fighters train wrestling.

 

Dos Anjos was dismantled by Nurmagomedov a strong russian fighter with freestyle wrestling background. He is the best in the division...

 

Not 100%, especially here in Brazil, but they should have.

 

Yes, 2 years ago, since then RDA beat 5 fighters (4 being TOP 1-10 guys), Nurmagomedov beat 0. Let's wait his comeback and see how good he will look in the long run.

Edited by Axe_Spartan

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UWW Grappling is very popular in Italy, France, Spain, Hungary, Russia, Poland and now there is an interesting expansion in India, Pakistan and Iran. So there aren't only USA and Brazil.

There is also a grappling liga in Germany...

Edited by WreslingSuperior

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Pedro, who is a friend of mine, is involved with UWW as you should know, of course he would send a grappling team for a UWW grappling championships. Really, jiu-jitsu fighters don't take FILA (UWW) grappling seriously, and it's not because of the rule of not jumping guard, they just prefer to focus in ADCC or No Gi Worlds. I've never seen a guy here talking about UWW (or FILA) world grappling championships.

 

 

 

Not 100%, especially here in Brazil, but they should have.

 

Yes, 2 years ago, since then RDA beat 5 fighters (4 being TOP 1-10 guys), Nurmagomedov beat 0. Let's wait his comeback and see how good he will look in the long run.

Khabib is a talent and I think that he is the real champion. Dos Anjos was scared by MgGrecor...

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You just don't get the overall mindset here. An olympic champion in judo will be as much accomplished as a bjj guy with a world championship for a bjj guy here, that's the mindset I'm trying to explain to you and somehow you think you are right. Flavio Canto and Tiago Camillo didn't choose judo over bjj because they had a shot at the olympics, they chose it because they started with it and kept doing it. I've never seen a brazilian choosing judo over bjj because he had a shot at the olympics.

 

If that really is the mindset, then Brazil has serious problems - both the athletes and the governing bodies. If Olympic, truly international level athletes are staying in the much smaller waters of jiu jitsu, that's simply a tremendous failure by the Judo and Wrestling folks in Brazil. 

 

I'm not trying to come down too hard on Brazil. The United States wrestles a non-olympic style in high schools and colleges and lacks any coherent, nationwide judo program. And we also have many of our best athlete ending up in American football or baseball, which are not exactly international sports either. 

 

That said, you can't compare the professionalism of the IBJJF or ADCC to NCAA Wrestling, let alone the NFL or MLB. Even ADCC, the best paying event in BJJ, offers you the chance to win what, like 40K every 2 years?

 

Again, I know Russia takes pride in Sambo, but nobody that could be on the Olympic team in Judo or Wrestling is spending their best years or bulk of their time in Sambo, because Olympic sports offer better opportunities for the athletes and host nations. 

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UWW Grappling is very popular in Italy, France, Spain, Hungary, Russia, Poland and now there is an interesting expansion in India, Pakistan and Iran. So there aren't only USA and Brazil.

There is also a grappling liga in Germany...

 

The main forces in grappling are USA, Brazil and Russia, so you are just taking out 2 of the 3 main forces of the sport.

 

 

Khabib is a talent and I think that he is the real champion. Dos Anjos was scared by MgGrecor...

 

Scared of McGregor? Now you are just talking trash.

 

 

If that really is the mindset, then Brazil has serious problems - both the athletes and the governing bodies. If Olympic, truly international level athletes are staying in the much smaller waters of jiu jitsu, that's simply a tremendous failure by the Judo and Wrestling folks in Brazil. 

 

I'm not trying to come down too hard on Brazil. The United States wrestles a non-olympic style in high schools and colleges and lacks any coherent, nationwide judo program. And we also have many of our best athlete ending up in American football or baseball, which are not exactly international sports either. 

 

That said, you can't compare the professionalism of the IBJJF or ADCC to NCAA Wrestling, let alone the NFL or MLB. Even ADCC, the best paying event in BJJ, offers you the chance to win what, like 40K every 2 years?

 

Again, I know Russia takes pride in Sambo, but nobody that could be on the Olympic team in Judo or Wrestling is spending their best years or bulk of their time in Sambo, because Olympic sports offer better opportunities for the athletes and host nations. 

 

The dream of a judo and wrestling guy here is to win Olympics, that's surely their goal. A high level bjj guy overall has not the dream of winning an olympic gold medal (maybe because there isn't jiu-jitsu or submission grappling in the Olympic Games), and I've never seen a guy here exchange sports because of a shot at the Olympics.

 

You have to take into consideration that a high level bjj guy will not take his payday exclusively by winning tourneys, but mainly opening schools abroad, doing a lot of seminars, as far as I know a lot of high level bjj guys do that and live comfortably with their family. I don't think the mindset of not wishing to get a gold medal on the olympics in another sport is a problem when they are being paid with a good amount of money by other means doing what they do best.

 

I've already heard about it in Russia, but again, I've never seen the same situation here.

Edited by Axe_Spartan

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The main forces in grappling are USA, Brazil and Russia, so you are just taking out 2 of the 3 main forces of the sport.

 

 

 

Scared of McGregor? Now you are just talking trash.

 

 

 

The dream of a judo and wrestling guy here is to win Olympics, that's surely their goal. A high level bjj guy overall has not the dream of winning an olympic gold medal (maybe because there isn't jiu-jitsu or submission grappling in the Olympic Games), and I've never seen a guy here exchange sports because of a shot at the Olympics.

 

You have to take into consideration that a high level bjj guy will not take his payday exclusively by winning tourneys, but mainly opening schools abroad, doing a lot of seminars, as far as I know a lot of high level bjj guys do that and live comfortably with their family. I don't think the mindset of not wishing to get a gold medal on the olympics in another sport is a problem when they are being paid with a good amount of money by other means doing what they do best.

 

I've already heard about it in Russia, but again, I've never seen the same situation here.

I think that USA Grappling can improve a lot.

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The main forces in grappling are USA, Brazil and Russia, so you are just taking out 2 of the 3 main forces of the sport.

 

 

 

Scared of McGregor? Now you are just talking trash.

 

 

 

The dream of a judo and wrestling guy here is to win Olympics, that's surely their goal. A high level bjj guy overall has not the dream of winning an olympic gold medal (maybe because there isn't jiu-jitsu or submission grappling in the Olympic Games), and I've never seen a guy here exchange sports because of a shot at the Olympics.

 

You have to take into consideration that a high level bjj guy will not take his payday exclusively by winning tourneys, but mainly opening schools abroad, doing a lot of seminars, as far as I know a lot of high level bjj guys do that and live comfortably with their family. I don't think the mindset of not wishing to get a gold medal on the olympics in another sport is a problem when they are being paid with a good amount of money by other means doing what they do best.

 

I've already heard about it in Russia, but again, I've never seen the same situation here.

 

So, thats one thing jiu jitsu does better as a whole than wrestling or judo - the ability to make money running a school, teaching seminars, etc. That said, market saturation is a real thing and many high level jiu jitsu players are unable or fail to make a decent living with schools and seminars. Being good at any sport does not mean you are good at business. And success at an olympic sport doesn't guarantee the government will take care of you like they do in Russia and other former Eastern Bloc states.

 

Back to my earlier example, it is a failure of American wrestling that Ben Askren, Daniel Cormier, Jon Jones, and many others are in MMA rather than wrestling. 

 

Brazil has a solid judo program, but it's wrestling is abysmal. Would the nation of Brazil be better served if guys like the Mendes Bros were doing freestyle wrestling? Maybe yes, maybe not. But I would love to see it.

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People ITT who think BJJ is a joke have no idea how fast one of those dudes could end your life.  It's also a phenomenal sport, and disciplining martial art on it's own accord.  People train in the style their entire lives, because it is less physically demolishing than wrestling, but also because there is an extreme ingrained respect for mastery and continuous improvement (which I personally find lacking in wrestling).  As far as MMA goes, there is no 'superior' style to have anymore which will carry you to the top...MMA is it's own entity now which borrows from any useful singular style.  That being said, I think wrestling really excels as a base from an educational and training standpoint, more than a technical one.  If you know how to train and tough it out like an elite wrestler, and learn complex body mechanics and be able to execute them at high speeds right away, you will always be dangerous in the cage.

Here's a cool Jui-jitsu video:
https://www.facebook.com/kitdale/videos/1710694242497914/?pnref=story

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bjj is doing an astronomically better job keeping people on the mat because older people can physically manage bjj. it's less physically demanding. then again so is golf.

This is true and it is not a negative.

BJJ is still grappling and my old body can still handle a tough workout and I can still compete.

The are still almost zero opportunities to wrestle competitively after college if you are not national caliber.

I competed in Judo until my early 40's when shoulder injuries did me in.

There is really not that much difference between the three sports. If you like grappling you should appreciated all three.

 

I do feel that wrestling skills translate best however.

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This is true and it is not a negative.

BJJ is still grappling and my old body can still handle a tough workout and I can still compete.

The are still almost zero opportunities to wrestle competitively after college if you are not national caliber.

I competed in Judo until my early 40's when shoulder injuries did me in.

There is really not that much difference between the three sports. If you like grappling you should appreciated all three.

 

I do feel that wrestling skills translate best however.

not trying to make it negative. pointing out bjj is not as dynamic or physically demanding as wrestling. an ok wrestler is likely a more athletitic than an elite bjj guy, or what every they're called.

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bjj isn't as physically grueling by far, it's also a submission sport so by nature it's more effective when submission holds are legal, that's just obvious. I also don't see the point of hating on other kids of martial arts. many of the asiatic martial arts are not necessarily meant for self defense but for meditation or exercise or just as a fun activity. They have the mind body soul approach. Some look more like dancing than fighting, there's a reason for that. Most practitioners of other martial arts also aren't training for combat, so arguing over what is most effective is silly as that's almost never the point of doing it. When it comes to fighting in an octagon You need to be able to strike grapple and submit.

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Wrestling schools for adults could work. but I think only if they taught a mix of free and Greco. And this has to be done at a slow pace, for example a session (which should not be called a practice) could be a light warm up consisting of yoga and gymnastic moves, next would come very light technique drilling. I think there would have to a focus on throwing holds as they are more exciting (each "wrestling dojo" would have to pay up for very soft mats and get throwing dummies and mats made for throws to lower impact) after technique there could be short sparring sessions that go at the participants pace like an open session with no pressure put on exerting more effort. The sport is hard enough, coaches would have to keep the peace slow, this is something I think most American coaches who are not experienced would struggle with. I think this approach could generate interest in former hs wrestles joining, as well practitioners of other martial arts who want a better wrestling base and maybe your average ufc fan. Potentially parents/relatives of wrestlers would try as well. It would be a small market at first but I think if a good free and Greco guy was hired as the coach who understood this could grow it into a successful business model. It would have to be located in a urban area as well with a large local population

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UWW Grappling is very popular in Italy, France, Spain, Hungary, Russia, Poland and now there is an interesting expansion in India, Pakistan and Iran. So there aren't only USA and Brazil.

There is also a grappling liga in Germany...

And Ukraine...

Grappling is the ideal style for +35 athletes/wrestlers. You have wrestling and submissions...with a better ruleset.

Edited by WreslingSuperior

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