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Retherford vs IMart

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Just to put it out there - I am not, in any manner, cheapening the mans title and if it came off that way know that isn't my actual intention. He won it, he dominated to his title, and he earned it and did so in impressive fashion. The guy did absolutely nothing wrong and I do not hold that against him personally or think that he is some scrub because the competition was poor. However, it simply is factual that 149 was one of the weakest divisions we have seen in years.

 

Let me put it to you this way. Do you think ZR could have done well against Metcalf, Caldwell (09/healthy), Palmer, Dake, Molinaro, Oliver, etc, etc? 149 has been a competitive class over the past five plus years outside of this past year and I really don't see ZR beating any of those opponents save (maybe) Molinaro. 

 

Again, I am not taking anything away from him winning as he won it and earned it but I think people are giving too much credit by the domination he showed considering his competition was rather weak. I simply do not see ZR at the level of those previously mentioned wrestlers and feel that Martinez would mop the mat with him. That is, of course, my opinion based on what I have seen and who those two have faced off against but I fully understand and respect others would have differing opinions. I have nothing but respect for ZR and his title (truly) but the fact some are talking about Hodge, most outstanding, and/or best wrestler in the college ranks is astounding to me is all.

Prediction: Some day in the not-distant future, we'll look back and laugh hard about the time an Ohio State fan compared Zain Retherford unfavorably to Lance Palmer on themat.com.

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I think Cory Clark is an excellent wrestler, but NO WAY does he beat Dan Gable in his prime.

 

Imar?  Great wrestler, but against Lee Kemp in his prime?  Forget it.

 

How would Sammy Brooks do against Snyder?  You guessed it, another loss.

 

I can do this too, all day.  

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Prediction: Some day in the not-distant future, we'll look back and laugh hard about the time an Ohio State fan compared Zain Retherford unfavorably to Lance Palmer on themat.com.

And if that happens I will eat crow with absolutely no issue but considering that Palmer dealt with Metcalf for three seasons I will be utterly surprised by it. Metcalf was vastly superior to ZR and Palmer beat him once and was very close a handful of other times which prevented him from title(s). Unless you are saying that ZR is on par with Metcalf? The same Metcalf who smashes the guy who smashes Retherford. 

 

I mean, c'mon now.... ZR is not the world beater people want to make him out to be. The guy had a great season which I respect but there is just no chance in hell he is at the level of the listed guys when he routinely gets beat down by a 17 year old. Granted Pico is amazing but Pico is also losing matches to people who once wrestled in college but the one he is beating, and hasn't lost to, is the same guy people want to make out as some super powered horse. Retherford is a good wrestler but there is just no way we can compare him to some of these other guys. His best win came against a flu ridden Logan, at home, in a duel meet of all things. Outside of that.....

 

Put him up against Nolf, IMar, etc and he would be handled. Let me ask this - on what are you basing your opinion of him on exactly? Better stated, what makes you think, precisely that is, that he would beat IMar or is on par with those other guys? What exactly, and against who specifically, has he shown to be superior to those listed? IMar is better on his feet. He is a superior bottom wrestler and he would very likely have little to no issue escaping Retherford. So what exactly does Zain have that you feel is superior to IMar? 

Edited by cm_111

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Do you really put that much weight on matches 2-5 years old?

 

Didn't Imar lose to a 9th grader (Mark Hall) when he was a senior?  This is just as relevant to Imar vs. Retherford as many of the comparisons you are making.  What bearing does how Retherford wrestles Pico (in freestyle) have on Retherford vs. Imar?  Did Imar beat Pico or Metcalf?

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And if that happens I will eat crow with absolutely no issue but considering that Palmer dealt with Metcalf for three seasons I will be utterly surprised by it. Metcalf was vastly superior to ZR and Palmer beat him once and was very close a handful of other times which prevented him from title(s). Unless you are saying that ZR is on par with Metcalf? The same Metcalf who smashes the guy who smashes Retherford. 

 

I mean, c'mon now.... ZR is not the world beater people want to make him out to be. The guy had a great season which I respect but there is just no chance in hell he is at the level of the listed guys when he routinely gets beat down by a 17 year old. Granted Pico is amazing but Pico is also losing matches to people who once wrestled in college but the one he is beating, and hasn't lost to, is the same guy people want to make out as some super powered horse. Retherford is a good wrestler but there is just no way we can compare him to some of these other guys. His best win came against a flu ridden Logan, at home, in a duel meet of all things. Outside of that.....

 

Put him up against Nolf, IMar, etc and he would be handled. Let me ask this - on what are you basing your opinion of him on exactly? Better stated, what makes you think, precisely that is, that he would beat IMar or is on par with those other guys? What exactly, and against who specifically, has he shown to be superior to those listed? IMar is better on his feet. He is a superior bottom wrestler and he would very likely have little to no issue escaping Retherford. So what exactly does Zain have that you feel is superior to IMar? 

 

What is your point?  You are comparing a 149 pounder, to a former 157 pounder who will be a 165 pounder next year.  

 

How would Thomas Gilman do against Dean Heil?  Also irrelevant.  

 

If you are going to go over scenario's in an effort to hate on a team and one of it's wrestlers, at least try to stick to the same weight class.

 

So, let's run down the short list of guys at 149 who are going to prove your point?

 

....still waiting...so far the count is zero.

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And if that happens I will eat crow with absolutely no issue but considering that Palmer dealt with Metcalf for three seasons I will be utterly surprised by it. Metcalf was vastly superior to ZR and Palmer beat him once and was very close a handful of other times which prevented him from title(s). Unless you are saying that ZR is on par with Metcalf? The same Metcalf who smashes the guy who smashes Retherford. 

 

I mean, c'mon now.... ZR is not the world beater people want to make him out to be. The guy had a great season which I respect but there is just no chance in hell he is at the level of the listed guys when he routinely gets beat down by a 17 year old. Granted Pico is amazing but Pico is also losing matches to people who once wrestled in college but the one he is beating, and hasn't lost to, is the same guy people want to make out as some super powered horse. Retherford is a good wrestler but there is just no way we can compare him to some of these other guys. His best win came against a flu ridden Logan, at home, in a duel meet of all things. Outside of that.....

 

Put him up against Nolf, IMar, etc and he would be handled. Let me ask this - on what are you basing your opinion of him on exactly? Better stated, what makes you think, precisely that is, that he would beat IMar or is on par with those other guys? What exactly, and against who specifically, has he shown to be superior to those listed? IMar is better on his feet. He is a superior bottom wrestler and he would very likely have little to no issue escaping Retherford. So what exactly does Zain have that you feel is superior to IMar? 

 

What is your point?  You are comparing a 149 pounder, to a former 157 pounder who will be a 165 pounder next year.  

 

How would Thomas Gilman do against Dean Heil?  Also irrelevant.  

 

If you are going to go over scenario's in an effort to hate on a team and one of it's wrestlers, at least try to stick to the same weight class.

 

So, let's run down the short list of guys at 149 who are going to prove your point?

 

....still waiting...so far the count is zero.

 

Try to keep up here... I made a list of previous 149 lbs champions which is why he (Metcalf) came up. Thus the comparison is applicable due to bringing up the previous champions at that exact weight class. However, thank you for answering an utterly elementary and simplistic question with a question and false narrative which completely had nothing to do with what I asked or stated.... I guess that pretty much nails down the obvious fact that there is absolutely nothing that can be said to counter what I put forth. I mean, seriously, why is it so difficult to explain how/why you feel the guy is some world beater? You should be able to systematically explain it with no issue... and yet.... nobody is able to do so. I can wait....

 

Why do you continue to bring up "hate" by the way? Have I once mentioned or even insinuated there is anything but respect for both the Penn State program and its wrestlers? I mean, seriously.... is this truly how you focus when a point is made you disagree with in that you make up fabricated narratives to attempt to convince yourself of something? It's overly weird and by weird I mean in the true sense of the word. As in, I find it incredibly weird that an adult is actually making things up when all they have to do is counter what is put forth (if a counter exists that is - which one doesn't of course). 

Edited by cm_111

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"False" Narrative...you mean like trying to compare a 149 pounder to a `57 pounder?

Isn't that what this topic is about? He didn't start this topic either, he's just stating his opinion on the topic.

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149 was relatively weak, but that doesn't mean Retherford is not on the level of the other 149 lb champs. Maybe Pico is a match up issue, or maybe it's because it's freestyle, taking away Retherford's top game. Retherford did beat Stieber, and even beating a sick Stieber is impressive. All that being said, Martinez is now a 2 time ncaa champ, in two tries, and beat the only guy two beat him, twice. Retherford is great, but unless he were to put on a good amount of size, I'd assume a Martinez match wouldn't be fun for him.

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Amongst recent 149 champs I think Retherford compares well.  I think he's better than Houdashelt, Tsirtsis, and Molinaro, Caldwell, Gillespie, and Schlatter.  I think he gets beat by Senior versions of Oliver and Metcalf and is competitive but on the losing end more often than not against Sophmore Dake.  I think he is definitely better than the average 149 lb champ.  

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And if that happens I will eat crow with absolutely no issue but considering that Palmer dealt with Metcalf for three seasons I will be utterly surprised by it. Metcalf was vastly superior to ZR and Palmer beat him once and was very close a handful of other times which prevented him from title(s). Unless you are saying that ZR is on par with Metcalf? The same Metcalf who smashes the guy who smashes Retherford. 

 

I mean, c'mon now.... ZR is not the world beater people want to make him out to be. The guy had a great season which I respect but there is just no chance in hell he is at the level of the listed guys when he routinely gets beat down by a 17 year old. Granted Pico is amazing but Pico is also losing matches to people who once wrestled in college but the one he is beating, and hasn't lost to, is the same guy people want to make out as some super powered horse. Retherford is a good wrestler but there is just no way we can compare him to some of these other guys. His best win came against a flu ridden Logan, at home, in a duel meet of all things. Outside of that.....

 

Put him up against Nolf, IMar, etc and he would be handled. Let me ask this - on what are you basing your opinion of him on exactly? Better stated, what makes you think, precisely that is, that he would beat IMar or is on par with those other guys? What exactly, and against who specifically, has he shown to be superior to those listed? IMar is better on his feet. He is a superior bottom wrestler and he would very likely have little to no issue escaping Retherford. So what exactly does Zain have that you feel is superior to IMar?

By what measure was sophomore Metcalf "vastly better" than sophomore Retherford?

 

I'm not saying Retherford is a "world beater" (although I guess he was a world beater literally when he won the Cadet World title). I am saying he (and Pico) are way better as 19, 20 year old kids than you're giving them credit for.

 

For your viewing pleasure, here's Retherford beating the Russian Murad Nukhkadiev, 9-2, at the Dave Schultz:

 

 

And here's Nukhkadiev beating Logan Stieber, 14-12, at the Yarygin:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPRZYs9wBrE

Edited by PhiferFuqua

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And if that happens I will eat crow with absolutely no issue but considering that Palmer dealt with Metcalf for three seasons I will be utterly surprised by it. Metcalf was vastly superior to ZR and Palmer beat him once and was very close a handful of other times which prevented him from title(s). Unless you are saying that ZR is on par with Metcalf? The same Metcalf who smashes the guy who smashes Retherford. 

 

I mean, c'mon now.... ZR is not the world beater people want to make him out to be. The guy had a great season which I respect but there is just no chance in hell he is at the level of the listed guys when he routinely gets beat down by a 17 year old. Granted Pico is amazing but Pico is also losing matches to people who once wrestled in college but the one he is beating, and hasn't lost to, is the same guy people want to make out as some super powered horse. Retherford is a good wrestler but there is just no way we can compare him to some of these other guys. His best win came against a flu ridden Logan, at home, in a duel meet of all things. Outside of that.....

 

Put him up against Nolf, IMar, etc and he would be handled. Let me ask this - on what are you basing your opinion of him on exactly? Better stated, what makes you think, precisely that is, that he would beat IMar or is on par with those other guys? What exactly, and against who specifically, has he shown to be superior to those listed? IMar is better on his feet. He is a superior bottom wrestler and he would very likely have little to no issue escaping Retherford. So what exactly does Zain have that you feel is superior to IMar? 

 

CM_111,

 

You have a serious time line issues. You also seem to believe that wrestlers don't improve over time. I guess you believe Metcalf's wrestling hasn't improved since 2008. You act as though it's so unreasonable to think that Retherford is on par with Brent Metcalf, but your reasons for aren't that great imo.

 

During Metcalf's college career, he never went undefeated. In his 3 year varsity career, he lost once every year. You mention that Metcalf "smashes the guy who smashes Retherford". For starters, Metcalf has only beaten Pico once 4-1, and this is the only time he has beaten Aaron Pico. More importantly, Metcalf was 28 years old at the time of the match and Pico was 18. Metcalf was training freestyle exclusively for 5 years at the time of the match. Zain Retherford has lost to Pico, but he's only two years older than Pico. Zain didn't have all of the advantages that Metcalf had when the match took place. A better comparison would be Metcalf as a freshman/sophmore. Metcalf came into college at 19 years old, which was about the same age as Retherford was when he began losing to Pico. It's not hard to see a freshman/sophmore year Metcalf losing to Pico in freestyle. Around this time (07-08), Metcalf was being pinned by Jared Frayer, a guy who would continue to beat him relatively consistently for another 5 years up until 2012. Metcalf was also losing to Eric Larkin in this time period too. Right now Pico has better wins on his resume than Frayer and Larkin did when they were beating Metcalf. Pico has beaten numerous world medalists and one World champion in 2014. There is no good reason to believe that a 2008-2009 wouldn't be losing to the current version of Pico. Metcalf was beaten numerous times by guys like Teyon Ware (2011), and was still getting beat by Frayer 2 years after he graduated college (2012) and was focusing on freestyle full time.

 

If you add in all of that context, Retherford losing to Pico is not that bad in comparison to Metcalf, who was losing to wrestlers who weren't as good Pico is now when he captured his first NCAA title in 2008-2009 over Jenkins. Although young, Pico is a very good wrestler. Pico also has wins over Molinaro, Humphrey, Jason Chamberlain, Kellen Russell, and Kendric Maple. Pico just recently bumped up a weight class and beat a two-time World bronze medalist by technical fall. A loss to Pico is not a bad loss. A sophmore Metcalf would have likely lost to Pico too. The only way that you can believe that the Pico losses are relevant in this comparison is if you believe Metcalf has not improved since 2008-2009. If that's the case, then why is Metcalf the standard of comparison? Why not Hodge winner Eric Larkin at 149, and ncaa runner up Jared Frayer at 149 who beat Metcalf? If Metcalf hasn't improved, then you should believe that they were better college wrestlers, unless you believe that they improved after college while Metcalf didn't. If that's your line of argumentation, I'm not sure how you can justify that belief.

 

With that said, Metcalf as a sophmore may be ahead/better than Retherford is now. That's up for debate. But If that's the case, it's best to get a different argument to demonstrate that opinion.

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Amongst recent 149 champs I think Retherford compares well.  I think he's better than Houdashelt, Tsirtsis, and Molinaro, Caldwell, Gillespie, and Schlatter.  I think he gets beat by Senior versions of Oliver and Metcalf and is competitive but on the losing end more often than not against Sophmore Dake.  I think he is definitely better than the average 149 lb champ.  

Probably:  He pinned three straight opponents and then hammered the clear #2, 10-1.  

 

But hey, you know, two years ago, Steiber was so "sick", and then you know, Pico and freestyle, and then Imar,

and if not Imar, then Metcalf, and if not Metcalf, let's just go to the Wade Schalles in his prime card.

 

Whatever it takes right?

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Ahem... and, back to the topic at hand. If the question is purely 'fictional', (I think we're talking Batman vs Superman type scenario here):

 

I say I-Mart beats Zain, and I would have to say pretty handily.

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No way Rutherford is better than Caldwell, Gillespie, and Schlatter.  Watching him wrestle, he just isn't.     

 

No shame in that. 

None of them put a season together anywhere close to Retherford's 2016.  None has a win as good as Retherford over Steiber (Caldwell over Metcalf is close, Schlatter over senior Espo is great but not as close).  

 

Caldwell had issues on bottom at times.  0 time AA Will Rowe from OU beat him twice and really beat him up from top in the match where Caldwell hurt his back.  I think Caldwell would have a good shot to out slick Retherford on his feet, but Caldwell was best as a counter wrestler.  All Retherford would need to do is wrestle for 0-0 in neutral and I think he wins every time.  

 

Freshman Schlatter would wrestle close with anyone, so it is tough to say.  Schlatter really was great that year and maybe I'm letting the injury plagued 3 years that followed color my judgement, but Schlatter did have a loss to DiSalvo that year and he was a true Frosh.  I take Retherford.

 

Gillespie was 34-2 his 149 lb championship season.  He did beat Sophomore Schlatter, but he never really came close to the top of the podium again, losing to Leen and Valimont in 2008.  I know the least about him by far of the guys I mentioned.  I was at NCAAs those years and remember him, but not much else from his seasons.  I could be wrong here.

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And I don't think he would have a chance against Imar.  Weight classes matter.  I would suspect Nolf gets the better of him in the room (maybe PSU insiders can confirm or deny).  

 

The talent Cadlwell had was off the charts.   He not only pinned and nearly majored Metcalf, when Metcalf was at his best, he also went out and beat up on Brent's coach at the WTT, making the national team, and really embarrassing the Iowa team.  

 

If not for Caldwell's injury, his senior year, Dake is a 3 timer and Caldwell is looked upon these boards, much more favorably.  

 

Poeta and Gilespie were both VERY good but get lost and overlooked, in that weight class which featured so many studs.  

 

Rutherford also seems small for the weight, or at least not particularly big.  

 

Dustin was simply too smooth for him.   Forget the injury seasons, when Dustin was on, he was lights out.   A world teamer as an underclassman, if you recall.  

 

We are allowing a VERY weak weight class and a great performance in said weight class, to over inflate our view of Rutherford, (who has done NOTHING in the seniors)  and simply beat up on mid level opposition this season.   Lets see if he can win a single bout at trials.   Schlatter, made the team (albeit world's).   

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The talent Cadlwell had was off the charts.   He not only pinned and nearly majored Metcalf, when Metcalf was at his best, he also went out and beat up on Brent's coach at the WTT, making the national team, and really embarrassing the Iowa team.  

 

If not for Caldwell's injury, his senior year, Dake is a 3 timer and Caldwell is looked upon these boards, much more favorably.  

 

Poeta and Gilespie were both VERY good but get lost and overlooked, in that weight class which featured so many studs.  

 

Rutherford also seems small for the weight, or at least not particularly big.  

 

Dustin was simply too smooth for him.   Forget the injury seasons, when Dustin was on, he was lights out.   A world teamer as an underclassman, if you recall.  

 

We are allowing a VERY weak weight class and a great performance in said weight class, to over inflate our view of Rutherford, (who has done NOTHING in the seniors)  and simply beat up on mid level opposition this season.   Lets see if he can win a single bout at trials.   Schlatter, made the team (albeit world's).   

I think Retherford against any of those 3 is up for debate.  I pick him but I don't think it is a definitive thing.  I admit that recency bias and the dominance of a weaker weight definitely make it possible to overestimate Retherford.  

 

I think the fact that all of the 3 had losses in their championship seasons to non-studs (Di Salvo, Rowe, etc...), along with their lack of matching success after their titles, makes me favor Retherford (along with the unmatched win over Steiber).  But I think he could easily slot into the top, bottom, or middle of those 3 and it would be no shame on any of them.  I think Caldwell was better, but I just think Retherford is a bad matchup for Caldwell because of the mat wrestling.  I also think that maybe Retherford was the most consistent of the mentioned group, even if Caldwell and Schlatter maybe had an extra gear when "on".  

Edited by boconnell

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It's not proof of anything, but I think Retherford beating Green today and going toe to toe with Stieber makes me feel like at least I wasn't crazy to put him up there.  I think the weak weight class makes it possible to overvalue Retherford, but I think it also makes it easy to under value him.  

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It's really difficult to say.  He won 1 bout and it was over a Green who has been very underwhelming at 65 kg.   He then was put out by a guy who lost his next bout.    

 

I Rutherford looked really good, but he didn't  exactly beat any of the big names (who have credentials at 65 kg).   

 

MSU158 would have told us Green wins this tournament based on credentials at a different class, but I don't buy that.   Rutherford with a very nice win over a Green who just does not seem cut out for 65 kg.   I'd love to see Rutherford/Martinez at the All Star next year.  That would be really cool.  

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And now he has won several bouts and finished 3rd and on the national team.   

 

No fluke about it, Rutherford stepped up and really performed.    After today's performance, I must reassess.

 

Rutherford beats Gillespie, upon further consideration.   

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