Sunday @ Olympic Trials Thread

[Crotalus 592]

Congratulations to Cox but if he qualifies the weight he wont medal anyway. 

Well aren't you just a ray of sunshine. Maybe he wont, it's an incredibly tough weight internationally, and he's young and raw, but so was Snyder last year. I'm excited for his future if he can maintain the weight.

[CA_Wrestler 328]

Yes, I'm sure they both deserved the spot over Burroughs, the second greatest wrestler in U.S. history, even though neither has done anything of note at an international tournament. 

This.

[straggler 65]

Yes, I'm sure they both deserved the spot over Burroughs, the second greatest wrestler in U.S. history, even though neither has done anything of note at an international tournament. 

If he is so great he should not need to be protected. The attempts to rationalize the way the system has been set up unique to US wrestling are absurd. Manifestly unfair. So taylor and Dake end up wrestling guys 20 pounds heavier than they are. Great system.  

[straggler 65]

Well aren't you just a ray of sunshine. Maybe he wont, it's an incredibly tough weight internationally, and he's young and raw, but so was Snyder last year. I'm excited for his future if he can maintain the weight.

He won't be able to muscle the competition. Unfortunately Dake was always too small. 

[denger 363]

I agree with Vak's assessment. Cox is a physical specimen but still a work in progress technically. He will be a beast in the next cycle if he sticks to it.

His learning curve is steep, as well.

I mean, his accomplishments say more than I can. 

I had a similar excitement about Burroughs five years ago, but that was only after his NCAA title.

[CA_Wrestler 328]

Snyderman

[Old Glory 23]

Wondering if maybe Varner got hurt at the end of the first match? Really didn't have a rooting interest either way, so nothing against Snyder, but that was back-to-back no-shows.

[Crotalus 592]

Why is nobody arguing the trials process is unfair to Varner? (Because most didn't want him to be our rep, I'm sure)

[Alyosha 48]

I'm a huge Dake fan, but Dake lost fair and square. It's not USA Wrestling's fault. (If anything blame the lack of Olympic weights in men's FS.) There's really not much chance he would've beat Burroughs at 74 kg even if Burroughs had to wrestle the challenge tournament. Burroughs wrecks the best Russians and Iranians after wrestling a whole tournament, so I doubt the domestic competition would give him too much trouble.

 

I just think it's amazing that Dake was one point away at 86 kg considering that he really is a 74 kg guy body-wise.

 

I think Dake has 2 options:

1) Put in another year of serious lifting and muscle mass building and come back  a little more filled out for the weight.

2) Drop to 70 kg for the next few cycles and hope Burroughs is done in time to move back to 74 kg for 2024

 

My guess is he will choose option 1

[Fishhook 142]

Kyle Snyder is a Beast

Edited April 11, 2016 by Fishhook

[VakAttack 4,016]

Varner just had nothing left. Great effort from a true champion. Maybe the answer is having trials in December and then having the best of three a month later?

 

The next step in Snyder's development is getting some par terre offense going. He may be unstoppable if he does that. Now go bring home that gold, my man!

 

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[tigerfan9311 223]

Varner just had zero left in the tank.  We're running out of superlatives for Snyder.  He's supercalifragilisticexpealidocious?

[GranbyTroll 452]

Varner definitely looked like the better wrestler in the first match, but as everyone saw he was completely out of gas. 

[PRyan2012 347]

Varner was just gassed out. No shame. Didn't realize from hearing Smith talk that his 1st match loss to Varner was his first ever to an american. Didnt know that. Great career for Varner-one of the best ever career wise from HS, college and international. Again I do not like the bye to the finals BS. That is simply Bull.... Sorry but true. Congrats to Snyder. If he doesnt win this series his GOAT was in jeopardy but he did it!!!

[Fishhook 142]

Varner just had nothing left. Great effort from a true champion. Maybe the answer is having trials in December and then having the best of three a month later?

 

The next step in Snyder's development is getting some par terre offense going. He may be unstoppable if he does that. Now go bring home that gold, my man!

 

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The thing is to win the Olympics, a man has to wrestle through his bracket in about 3 hours.  I was shocked how physically draining last years worlds was. Guys like Togrul Asgarov got grinded down by that format.   So it does make some sense to do it this way, as unfair to one guy it may be.  That is what winning a world medal does for you though.  If someone knocks off Jordan Burroughs and wins a world medal, Burroughs would have to do the tournament and best of 3 to get his spot back.  

[VakAttack 4,016]

The thing is to win the Olympics, a man has to wrestle through his bracket in about 3 hours. I was shocked how physically draining last years worlds was. Guys like Togrul Asgarov got grinded down by that format. So it does make some sense to do it this way, as unfair to one guy it may be. That is what winning a world medal does for you though. If someone knocks off Jordan Burroughs and wins a world medal, Burroughs would have to do the tournament and best of 3 to get his spot back.

Bit in the Olympics, EVERYBODY has to wrestle the tournament. Here Burroughs and Snyder goy to chill while these guys wrestled thru brutal brackets littered with NCAA champs. I'm pro giving out medalists an advantage, but the current system makes it borderline impossible.

 

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[Axe_Spartan 205]

Varner was just gassed out. No shame. Didn't realize from hearing Smith talk that his 1st match loss to Varner was his first ever to an american. Didnt know that. Great career for Varner-one of the best ever career wise from HS, college and international. Again I do not like the bye to the finals BS. That is simply Bull.... Sorry but true. Congrats to Snyder. If he doesnt win this series his GOAT was in jeopardy but he did it!!!

 

I see the bye as a advantage and a disadvantage at the same time, while the guy is of course more fresh, he is kind of cold, not on competition rhythm.

[denger 363]

It was Varner's 4th, 5th, and 6th match of the day.

How does that compare to a day at the Olympics?

 

Snyder was the only person to score on him all day. 

[ArmDrag14 64]

To everyone worrying about J'Den Cox, I simply say and I think people who have followed him through the years would agree, just don't. No I'm not guarenteeing gold or a medal, but J'Den will come through. No other trials champ has as little international and even domestic experience as Jden. So just think of how he's gunna do practicing with Snyder, Varner, dake, Taylor, etc. and getting some of the coaching that's is available. Although I love Brian Smith and the Mizzou program, they don't have anywhere near the resources that a Snyder will have. Hell, the two guys coaching him were Smith and His kids club wrestling coach Mike Eierman (who's brilliant by the way). Everyone needs to fall in Love with J'den because the kids upside is insane. Snyder gets to wrestle with Tervel, Varner, and goes across seas. J'Den has Willie Miklus in the room with him, no offense to him but you get my point. This is the absolute best thing that could of happen to us. J'Den is almost sheltered at a loss of words. Think about what different coaches/wrestlers along with what he's got already are gunna do for him moving on. Not only is J'Den big, but he's technical even though a lot of you seem to think he's not. How many people thought he was even going to win the trials! I am absolutely ecstatic for this opputunity for J'Den and America to invest in him. I'd like someone to find someone who's more polished yet raw than J'Den Cox to be our rep in recent years. for a lot of people with inside information on him that will make a lot of sense. Obviously I'm no fortune teller, but a lot of people should be very thrilled about having J'Den Cox as our rep. Outstanding wrestler, outstanding kid.

[pamela 1,334]

Yeah, but in the Olympics wrestlers who compete in many matches in one day are facing other wrestlers in competing many matches in one day; not someone with completely fresh legs.

[straggler 65]

I'm a huge Dake fan, but Dake lost fair and square. It's not USA Wrestling's fault. (If anything blame the lack of Olympic weights in men's FS.) There's really not much chance he would've beat Burroughs at 74 kg even if Burroughs had to wrestle the challenge tournament. Burroughs wrecks the best Russians and Iranians after wrestling a whole tournament, so I doubt the domestic competition would give him too much trouble.

 

I just think it's amazing that Dake was one point away at 86 kg considering that he really is a 74 kg guy body-wise.

 

I think Dake has 2 options:

1) Put in another year of serious lifting and muscle mass building and come back  a little more filled out for the weight.

2) Drop to 70 kg for the next few cycles and hope Burroughs is done in time to move back to 74 kg for 2024

 

My guess is he will choose option 1

Burroughs is the best in this style and would be the favorite in any match. But the system is such a complete cheat that it would be pointless to even try. That is what Dake and Taylor recognized, that they would never even get a square chance. When you create system that protects the incumbent so completely that you impose a physical disadvantage on the challengers, there is not even the pretense that the powers that be want a fair match. And that trickles all the way through. I think Dake decided to stop wasting his time after the first match last year where he outwrestled Burroughs despite going through the challenge matches and got screwed. That would happen every single time. The problem is as you say with the weight classes that means a guy walking around at 185 has to beat a talented guy walking around at 205. And he lost by one point. Dake is just going to have to keep growing into the weight, but there are natural limits. I think if the challenge system were fairer he would still be at 74kg. 

[pamela 1,334]

Option 2 probably won't be an option for Kyle Dake soon. He walks around at 185 and wants to continue growing. That's fine, but at some point he'll reach a point of no return physiologically where the cut down to 70kg and then 74kg will not be possible.

 

The other thing that Option 1 has going for Dake is that Cox may not be able to sustain the cut, and it's unclear if he's even thinking about wrestling as a career, versus say MMA.

[Billyhoyle 2,480]

To everyone worrying about J'Den Cox, I simply say and I think people who have followed him through the years would agree, just don't. No I'm not guarenteeing gold or a medal, but J'Den will come through. No other trials champ has as little international and even domestic experience as Jden. So just think of how he's gunna do practicing with Snyder, Varner, dake, Taylor, etc. and getting some of the coaching that's is available. Although I love Brian Smith and the Mizzou program, they don't have anywhere near the resources that a Snyder will have. Hell, the two guys coaching him were Smith and His kids club wrestling coach Mike Eierman (who's brilliant by the way). Everyone needs to fall in Love with J'den because the kids upside is insane. Snyder gets to wrestle with Tervel, Varner, and goes across seas. J'Den has Willie Miklus in the room with him, no offense to him but you get my point. This is the absolute best thing that could of happen to us. J'Den is almost sheltered at a loss of words. Think about what different coaches/wrestlers along with what he's got already are gunna do for him moving on. Not only is J'Den big, but he's technical even though a lot of you seem to think he's not. How many people thought he was even going to win the trials! I am absolutely ecstatic for this opputunity for J'Den and America to invest in him. I'd like someone to find someone who's more polished yet raw than J'Den Cox to be our rep in recent years. for a lot of people with inside information on him that will make a lot of sense. Obviously I'm no fortune teller, but a lot of people should be very thrilled about having J'Den Cox as our rep. Outstanding wrestler, outstanding kid.

Do you know if there is any talk of him training at the Ohio RTC, OTC, etc after this next NCAA season? 

[wrestlingnerd 3,003]

His learning curve is steep, as well.

I mean, his accomplishments say more than I can.

I had a similar excitement about Burroughs five years ago, but that was only after his NCAA title.

JB had an unstoppable move. Cox doesn't. It's not a fair comparison. Let's note get ahead of ourselves.

[wrestlingnerd 3,003]

To everyone worrying about J'Den Cox, I simply say and I think people who have followed him through the years would agree, just don't. No I'm not guarenteeing gold or a medal, but J'Den will come through. No other trials champ has as little international and even domestic experience as Jden. So just think of how he's gunna do practicing with Snyder, Varner, dake, Taylor, etc. and getting some of the coaching that's is available. Although I love Brian Smith and the Mizzou program, they don't have anywhere near the resources that a Snyder will have. Hell, the two guys coaching him were Smith and His kids club wrestling coach Mike Eierman (who's brilliant by the way). Everyone needs to fall in Love with J'den because the kids upside is insane. Snyder gets to wrestle with Tervel, Varner, and goes across seas. J'Den has Willie Miklus in the room with him, no offense to him but you get my point. This is the absolute best thing that could of happen to us. J'Den is almost sheltered at a loss of words. Think about what different coaches/wrestlers along with what he's got already are gunna do for him moving on. Not only is J'Den big, but he's technical even though a lot of you seem to think he's not. How many people thought he was even going to win the trials! I am absolutely ecstatic for this opputunity for J'Den and America to invest in him. I'd like someone to find someone who's more polished yet raw than J'Den Cox to be our rep in recent years. for a lot of people with inside information on him that will make a lot of sense. Obviously I'm no fortune teller, but a lot of people should be very thrilled about having J'Den Cox as our rep. Outstanding wrestler, outstanding kid.

All great points, and thank you for the background.

 

My issue is simply the lack of time. You can throw all the resources in the world at talent like Cox, but with three months and change, you can only change a guy so much.