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Sunday @ Olympic Trials Thread

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Bit in the Olympics, EVERYBODY has to wrestle the tournament. Here Burroughs and Snyder goy to chill while these guys wrestled thru brutal brackets littered with NCAA champs. I'm pro giving out medalists an advantage, but the current system makes it borderline impossible.

 

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Any Olympic Gold medalist this year, and a high percentage of silver and bronze, I argue, would be able to win the challenge tournament and win a best of three in this format. So to beat a defending medalist, you need to be in shape worthy of winning a medal, if not a gold. I happen to think Snyder would have won the best of 3 anyway, even if he had to do the tournament and stuff. He didn't press at the end if the first match with Varner, particularly when he had Varner stretched out, belly down, because he knew he had the other two matches.  The only way Burroughs and Snyder, as defending medalists that appear worthy of being favored to do so again, were not representing us or medaling is an injury, which is one thing this tournament can bring upon wrestlers, but Howe and Varner weren't injured and were pretty fresh. I think Kyle ground down Varner more than the day, and I think Burroughs just isn't going down. 

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All great points, and thank you for the background.

 

My issue is simply the lack of time. You can throw all the resources in the world at talent like Cox, but with three months and change, you can only change a guy so much.

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Which is true, I was more trying to excite everyone who might not know much about him. There is only upside from here, and a lot of it. Short Term is a bit of a stretch, but in the long run there's tons of promise.

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Bit in the Olympics, EVERYBODY has to wrestle the tournament. Here Burroughs and Snyder goy to chill while these guys wrestled thru brutal brackets littered with NCAA champs. I'm pro giving out medalists an advantage, but the current system makes it borderline impossible.

 

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This is exactly right. You saw the effects of it on Varner, who came out firing on all cylinders and then turned into a pumpkin for the other two bouts. Of course, Snyder had a lot to do with that, but there is absolutely no way Varner was feeling good after the first match.

 

I remember Reece Humphrey stating in an interview a couple of years ago that sitting out was a huge advantage. He described what it felt like to go best of three both as the victor of a gauntlet of elite talent as well as the guy who got to put his feet up while his competitors slugged it out. Fresh legs versus lead legs.

 

I'm all for giving champs an advantage. I just don't think it's right to give them a physical advantage. Maybe you have to beat them best of 5 and not 3. Or you still have the tourney but the best of 3 is the next day. Wrestling guys whose glycogen is nearly depleted is too Michael of a physical advantage. I've made this analogy before, but it's like having a mile race with the fastest miler in the country after winning three or four mile-long qualification races before you race at least two if not three more times against a guy who has yet to break a sweat all day. NOT a true measure of performance on a level playing field.

 

I honestly don't think it would've mattered against JB anyway, but I'm not as sure about Snyder fI'd still favor him). The way he dispatched an extremely tough Howe makes me think JB is in a completely different level that no American will reach until he either retires or slows down, whichever comes first.

Edited by wrestlingnerd

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The lack of full weight classes is asinine and the IOC Should get terminal diarrhea for cutting them.

How many weights were cut in boxing?

Why didn't they cut out all but one competitor per nation in swimming and track?

The IOC is run by power mad jackasses.

 

If track can have more than one competitor per country why not all sports? Make it equal all the way around. Easy to pay for - cut the salary of the do nothing leeches on the IOC and use the money for the Athletes.

 

There is not one intelligent reason for the Olympic Games to have fewer weights than the World Championships - and even those are too few.

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Hell, the two guys coaching him were Smith and His kids club wrestling coach Mike Eierman (who's brilliant by the way).

 

Wow, that must be an amazing feeling as a coach!  I'm definitely becoming a huge fan of J'den.  I knew he was good, but some of his technical and tactical decisions today were extremely high level, and i simply never had to see him use them before

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If he is so great he should not need to be protected. The attempts to rationalize the way the system has been set up unique to US wrestling are absurd. Manifestly unfair. So taylor and Dake end up wrestling guys 20 pounds heavier than they are. Great system.  

 

Nobody forced them to gain weight and go up. They did just what so many 184 pounders did when Cael was in College. They ran away from the top guy.

It is their choice. Doesn't matter if Burroughs is rested or not, if the competition wants a shot at him they have to take it. Not make excuses.

In their defense, I don't see these two making excuses - it seems to be others making excuses for them.

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Nobody forced them to gain weight and go up. They did just what so many 184 pounders did when Cael was in College. They ran away from the top guy.

It is their choice. Doesn't matter if Burroughs is rested or not, if the competition wants a shot at him they have to take it. Not make excuses.

In their defense, I don't see these two making excuses - it seems to be others making excuses for them.

Athletes will accept a challenge. They will not willingly engage in a farce, and that is what the selection process in the US is. No other nations do it, the hallmark of second rate. Heck you could have the bye but delay the finals one day. That is at least the semblance of competitive fairness. I'm not making excuses. I am condemning a disgrace. And the kicker is the the system is so stupid that Dake ends up wrestling a guy in the finals that outweighs him by 25 pounds. What does that say? People say he was whining, well hell yes.

Edited by straggler

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Yeah, Hail Mary challenge. Cox is going to need to be a lot better by Rio. His main advantage was his size. Not going to cut it internationally. He needs more offense. He's got the skills for it, he just needs to let it fly more.

 

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Come on Vak -

 

Always respect your posts. But Cox (along with Snyder) are the only Collegians to win OTT.

 

And you are already talking about his shortcomings ?

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The lack of full weight classes is asinine and the IOC Should get terminal diarrhea for cutting them.

How many weights were cut in boxing?

Why didn't they cut out all but one competitor per nation in swimming and track?

The IOC is run by power mad jackasses.

 

If track can have more than one competitor per country why not all sports? Make it equal all the way around. Easy to pay for - cut the salary of the do nothing leeches on the IOC and use the money for the Athletes.

 

There is not one intelligent reason for the Olympic Games to have fewer weights than the World Championships - and even those are too few.

Why does swimming have races in different strokes?  Races of, who can swim the fastest with slow, slower and slowest methods; that would be like track & field having in addition to their forward running events, holding races of the same distances in skipping, running backwards and carioca. 

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There is not one intelligent reason for the Olympic Games to have fewer weights than the World Championships - and even those are too few.

I basically agree except FILA was actually worse than the IOC, which is a pretty low bar, so it's not really the Olympics fault but our own. I think there would be many benefits from not dealing with the IOC at all but they (shockingly) are a positive influence on wrestling's institution and wrestling is so unpopular nationwide that it literally relies on the Olympics to stay relevant (and convince countries to pay for the sport).

 

straggler, what are you trying to accomplish as Dake's official excuse maker? I'm a fan of Dake but you making it difficult to root for him. 

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I basically agree except FILA was actually worse than the IOC, which is a pretty low bar, so it's not really the Olympics fault but our own. I think there would be many benefits from not dealing with the IOC at all but they (shockingly) are a positive influence on wrestling's institution and wrestling is so unpopular nationwide that it literally relies on the Olympics to stay relevant (and convince countries to pay for the sport).

 

straggler, what are you trying to accomplish as Dake's official excuse maker? I'm a fan of Dake but you making it difficult to root for him. 

Why? Don't blame Dake because I notice that things are downright rotten with the sport. And the sport came thisclose to not even being in the Olympics, so it is not like this is a newsflash. The sport has spent the last few years changing to survive. Well as a casual fan of international wrestling I am frankly appalled, and you are free to ignore that or realize that the system is still broken. The fact that Dake is the lightening rod for all this is unfortunate. But he is the most naturally talented prospect to come out of our system in years and he is getting screwed on an epic level. And it is not like we are doing so well. As a fan I am going to point this out. 

 

So we have a great freestyle champ in Burroughs at 163. Maybe he cannot be defeated. But unlike every other nation in the sport US wrestling has created a system so wantonly unfair and irrational that you would have to be a sap to even make the effort. They have announced loud and clear that they want Borroughs to win, and anyone who challenges is persona non grata. Even if you overcome the physical disadvantage of the challenge system good luck getting any calls. The system is so unfair that wrestlers such as Dake and Taylor would make the massive leap to 189 from 163 rather than play Charlie Brown kicking the proverbial football that isn't there. But make no mistake that US wrestling created this. Dake and Taylor are far better at 74kg and Dake as you have said could actually make noise internationally at the weight. Dake outwrestled Burroughs that first match last year. But US wrestling's absurd policies and favoritism drove them away.

 

And am I wrong to point out the ridiculous lack of weight categories? The difference between 163 and 189 in infinite. Anyone ever make that jump successfully on the senior circuit before? Dake is 185 in a 189lb classification and he just had to wrestle a guy that outweighed him by at least 20 lbs in the final. Shoud I not be appalled by that? He just lost by 1 point to a much bigger guy. Could Burroughs even do that? But if he had beaten Cox, what then? There is no way he can compete against the weight division's best not due to talent but size.

 

If the system was not such a travesty both Dake and Taylor would take their chances at 74kg. Maybe they would lose, but at least it would be fair. Instead we get a circus where a 74kg wrestler wrestles a 97kg wrestler at 86 kgs.  

Edited by straggler

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But unlike every other nation in the sport US wrestling has created a system so wantonly unfair and irrational that you would have to be a sap to even make the effort. 

Russia just picked Sadulaev without a wrestle off. no one else gets a chance.

 

you don't sound like much of a wrestling fan. just someone who is very close to Dake who found a wrestling message board and wants to vent their frustrations because they really really really want to see Dake in the Olympics. 

 

all the other dumb things you say also make me not want to root for Dake. But keep doing it if it makes you happy I guess. 

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Why does swimming have races in different strokes?  Races of, who can swim the fastest with slow, slower and slowest methods; that would be like track & field having in addition to their forward running events, holding races of the same distances in skipping, running backwards and carioca. 

 

 

Kind of like beach, greco and freestyle.   Different styles of wrestling/different styles of swimming.   

 

I('d like to see them all stay (cut  the women if anything)

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Russia just picked Sadulaev without a wrestle off. no one else gets a chance.

 

you don't sound like much of a wrestling fan. just someone who is very close to Dake who found a wrestling message board and wants to vent their frustrations because they really really really want to see Dake in the Olympics. 

 

all the other dumb things you say also make me not want to root for Dake. But keep doing it if it makes you happy I guess. 

Good for Russia. Why would anyone be a serious fan of international wrestling? It was unwatchable for years to the point that it almost committed Olympic suicide. The way the sport is run is a joke. And even with the welcome improvements scoring is often about as transparent as consulting the Delphic oracle. I admit I am a fan of certain wrestlers. If they lose fair and square, fine. As long as its fair and the process has integrity, so be it. But let me know what is fair about this? The US will win a Gold, maybe a couple of Bronze, finish in 5th place. The usual.  

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Varner just had nothing left. Great effort from a true champion. Maybe the answer is having trials in December and then having the best of three a month later?

 

The next step in Snyder's development is getting some par terre offense going. He may be unstoppable if he does that. Now go bring home that gold, my man!

 

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The problem with having the trials earlier is you wouldn't have the college guys competing unless they went for a redshirt. We probably wouldn't have Cox competing and Snyder wouldn't have competed at NCAAs.

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Why? Don't blame Dake because I notice that things are downright rotten with the sport. And the sport came thisclose to not even being in the Olympics, so it is not like this is a newsflash. The sport has spent the last few years changing to survive. Well as a casual fan of international wrestling I am frankly appalled, and you are free to ignore that or realize that the system is still broken. The fact that Dake is the lightening rod for all this is unfortunate. But he is the most naturally talented prospect to come out of our system in years and he is getting screwed on an epic level. And it is not like we are doing so well. As a fan I am going to point this out. 

 

So we have a great freestyle champ in Burroughs at 163. Maybe he cannot be defeated. But unlike every other nation in the sport US wrestling has created a system so wantonly unfair and irrational that you would have to be a sap to even make the effort. They have announced loud and clear that they want Borroughs to win, and anyone who challenges is persona non grata. Even if you overcome the physical disadvantage of the challenge system good luck getting any calls. The system is so unfair that wrestlers such as Dake and Taylor would make the massive leap to 189 from 163 rather than play Charlie Brown kicking the proverbial football that isn't there. But make no mistake that US wrestling created this. Dake and Taylor are far better at 74kg and Dake as you have said could actually make noise internationally at the weight. Dake outwrestled Burroughs that first match last year. But US wrestling's absurd policies and favoritism drove them away.

 

And am I wrong to point out the ridiculous lack of weight categories? The difference between 163 and 189 in infinite. Anyone ever make that jump successfully on the senior circuit before? Dake is 185 in a 189lb classification and he just had to wrestle a guy that outweighed him by at least 20 lbs in the final. Shoud I not be appalled by that? He just lost by 1 point to a much bigger guy. Could Burroughs even do that? But if he had beaten Cox, what then? There is no way he can compete against the weight division's best not due to talent but size.

 

If the system was not such a travesty both Dake and Taylor would take their chances at 74kg. Maybe they would lose, but at least it would be fair. Instead we get a circus where a 74kg wrestler wrestles a 97kg wrestler at 86 kgs.  

Sports is a reflection of lfe. Life isn't fair. Sports isn't fair. Fair isn't fair. 

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Good for Russia. Why would anyone be a serious fan of international wrestling? It was unwatchable for years to the point that it almost committed Olympic suicide. The way the sport is run is a joke. And even with the welcome improvements scoring is often about as transparent as consulting the Delphic oracle. I admit I am a fan of certain wrestlers. If they lose fair and square, fine. As long as its fair and the process has integrity, so be it. But let me know what is fair about this? The US will win a Gold, maybe a couple of Bronze, finish in 5th place. The usual.  

OUr results won't be because of the selection process.  It would be because we favor single legs and such when other techniques have higher scoring potential.  We need a little more variety.  We have become too reliant on the single leg, because it is the highest percentage attack in Folkstyle rules.  This stuff has taken decades to evolve to for us as a country. We will evolve to something else in the future. 

 

BUt please, stop acting like a Loser with a capital L. 

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It was Varner's 4th, 5th, and 6th match of the day.

How does that compare to a day at the Olympics?

 

Snyder was the only person to score on him all day. 

True, but at the same time in Varner's third match of the day he did just fine and he had almost no rest between matches one and two and two and three. 

 

I think the format gives an unnecessary and unfair advantage to the incumbent. They could have a two day tournament and wrestle all the weight classes on one day except the best of threes and then all the best of threes the next day. The would need more mats but could otherwise do it even with 18 weight classes across greco, women's and men's. But hey, I am feeling some serious deja vue here. 

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OUr results won't be because of the selection process.  It would be because we favor single legs and such when other techniques have higher scoring potential.  We need a little more variety.  We have become too reliant on the single leg, because it is the highest percentage attack in Folkstyle rules.  This stuff has taken decades to evolve to for us as a country. We will evolve to something else in the future. 

 

BUt please, stop acting like a Loser with a capital L. 

Can I at least be a loser with a lowercase "l"? Am I salty? Guilty as charged. But honestly I do not care who wins or loses so long as there is competitive fairness. It is a very modest request. The selection process has so little competitive fairness given the challenge system that Dake and Taylor embarked on an adventure rather than waste their time in a fool's errand. I thought they were throwing away their careers trying to go up 26 pounds and even if Dake had made it he would get horsed against the elite at the weight. And how does Varner feel about the system? Varner is a former medalist.

At the end of the day I am not asking for too much. Clearer scoring rules. A fairer selection process. More realistic weight categories. (Anyone remember the 68 and 82 kg categories that magically disappeared or even the 84kg weight?). Pretty humble stuff.   

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