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Rank your TOP 10 individuals for the upcoming season

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Wow, not a single person picking Howe.

 

If Jordan Burroughs didn't exist, we wouldn't even be having the conversation of who's the top guy. Howe would be the Olympics rep. Even then he only barely lost to World Champ Burroughs in the first match before having to withdraw, and he won the Olympic challenge tournament with Dake and Taylor in the bracket, beating the latter 1-0, 5-0. Howe was 2nd to Burroughs to be our rep at Worlds last year too, beating Dake (up a weight) en route, and before that, Howe had already won US Nationals and made a world team.

 

Granted, freestyle isn't folkstyle, but the reality is that no one not named Jordan Burroughs has showed an ability to even get a takedown on Howe, especially over the past year. If the rationale is that Howe may lose a step up at 174, then where's that rationale for Ruth, and of course there's Dake going up a weight each year.

 

Howe won't put as many points on the board as a guy like Taylor or Ruth, and his 2nd-1st-3rd record at NCAAs doesn't equal Dake, but all indicia are that Howe is just a little further ahead than these others guys right now. Maybe others have more future potential than Howe, but as of right now, I just don't see the argument that anyone's better than Howe.

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Wow, not a single person picking Howe.

 

If Jordan Burroughs didn't exist, we wouldn't even be having the conversation of who's the top guy. Howe would be the Olympics rep. Even then he only barely lost to World Champ Burroughs in the first match before having to withdraw, and he won the Olympic challenge tournament with Dake and Taylor in the bracket, beating the latter 1-0, 5-0. Howe was 2nd to Burroughs to be our rep at Worlds last year too, beating Dake (up a weight) en route, and before that, Howe had already won US Nationals and made a world team.

 

Granted, freestyle isn't folkstyle, but the reality is that no one not named Jordan Burroughs has showed an ability to even get a takedown on Howe, especially over the past year. If the rationale is that Howe may lose a step up at 174, then where's that rationale for Ruth, and of course there's Dake going up a weight each year.

 

Howe won't put as many points on the board as a guy like Taylor or Ruth, and his 2nd-1st-3rd record at NCAAs doesn't equal Dake, but all indicia are that Howe is just a little further ahead than these others guys right now. Maybe others have more future potential than Howe, but as of right now, I just don't see the argument that anyone's better than Howe.

 

I can see Howe being number one.

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Wow, not a single person picking Howe.

 

If Jordan Burroughs didn't exist, we wouldn't even be having the conversation of who's the top guy. Howe would be the Olympics rep. Even then he only barely lost to World Champ Burroughs in the first match before having to withdraw, and he won the Olympic challenge tournament with Dake and Taylor in the bracket, beating the latter 1-0, 5-0. Howe was 2nd to Burroughs to be our rep at Worlds last year too, beating Dake (up a weight) en route, and before that, Howe had already won US Nationals and made a world team.

 

Granted, freestyle isn't folkstyle, but the reality is that no one not named Jordan Burroughs has showed an ability to even get a takedown on Howe, especially over the past year. If the rationale is that Howe may lose a step up at 174, then where's that rationale for Ruth, and of course there's Dake going up a weight each year.

 

Howe won't put as many points on the board as a guy like Taylor or Ruth, and his 2nd-1st-3rd record at NCAAs doesn't equal Dake, but all indicia are that Howe is just a little further ahead than these others guys right now. Maybe others have more future potential than Howe, but as of right now, I just don't see the argument that anyone's better than Howe.

I think the point is that we have one interesting season brewing.

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Wow, not a single person picking Howe.

 

If Jordan Burroughs didn't exist, we wouldn't even be having the conversation of who's the top guy. Howe would be the Olympics rep. Even then he only barely lost to World Champ Burroughs in the first match before having to withdraw, and he won the Olympic challenge tournament with Dake and Taylor in the bracket, beating the latter 1-0, 5-0. Howe was 2nd to Burroughs to be our rep at Worlds last year too, beating Dake (up a weight) en route, and before that, Howe had already won US Nationals and made a world team.

 

Granted, freestyle isn't folkstyle, but the reality is that no one not named Jordan Burroughs has showed an ability to even get a takedown on Howe, especially over the past year. If the rationale is that Howe may lose a step up at 174, then where's that rationale for Ruth, and of course there's Dake going up a weight each year.

 

Howe won't put as many points on the board as a guy like Taylor or Ruth, and his 2nd-1st-3rd record at NCAAs doesn't equal Dake, but all indicia are that Howe is just a little further ahead than these others guys right now. Maybe others have more future potential than Howe, but as of right now, I just don't see the argument that anyone's better than Howe.

 

I didn't pick Howe as my number 1 guy, but then again, I didn't pick anyone as my number 1 guy. All I had was a top 3, and I put him there. I think the argument that he's number 1 makes sense, but its hard to say with certainty right now.

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Steiber might be every bit as good as Howe. This season is so top heavy you are finding a lot of guys are finding it difficult to put Taylor in the top 4.

 

Scribe: You beat me to it. Stieber and Howe have similar accomplishments. Both are outstanding in both styles. Stieber has wins in free over virtually every American that matters sans Coleman Scott and was an Olympic Trials finalist. In folk, he beat the superb Jordan Oliver.

 

If we're ranking based on talent, accomplishments and potential, then my top four--in no particular order:

 

Dake, Howe, Stieber and Oliver.

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Steiber might be every bit as good as Howe. This season is so top heavy you are finding a lot of guys are finding it difficult to put Taylor in the top 4.

 

Scribe: You beat me to it. Stieber and Howe have similar accomplishments. Both are outstanding in both styles. Stieber has wins in free over virtually every American that matters sans Coleman Scott and was an Olympic Trials finalist. In folk, he beat the superb Jordan Oliver.

 

If we're ranking based on talent, accomplishments and potential, then my top four--in no particular order:

 

Dake, Howe, Stieber and Oliver.

 

 

..is Ruth at least 5th in your rankings?

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Here is my list...

 

 

1. Kyle Dake - Cornell

2. Ed Ruth - Penn State

3. David Taylor - Penn State

4. Matt McDonough - Iowa

5. Logan Steiber - Ohio State

6. Andrew Howe - Oklahoma

7. Jordan Oliver - Oklahoma State

8. Dustin Kilgore - Kent State

9. Tyler Caldwell - Oklahoma State

10. Jason Chamberlain - Boise State

 

 

...I have no dog in the fight!

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Wow, not a single person picking Howe.

 

If Jordan Burroughs didn't exist, we wouldn't even be having the conversation of who's the top guy. Howe would be the Olympics rep. Even then he only barely lost to World Champ Burroughs in the first match before having to withdraw, and he won the Olympic challenge tournament with Dake and Taylor in the bracket, beating the latter 1-0, 5-0. Howe was 2nd to Burroughs to be our rep at Worlds last year too, beating Dake (up a weight) en route, and before that, Howe had already won US Nationals and made a world team.

 

Granted, freestyle isn't folkstyle, but the reality is that no one not named Jordan Burroughs has showed an ability to even get a takedown on Howe, especially over the past year. If the rationale is that Howe may lose a step up at 174, then where's that rationale for Ruth, and of course there's Dake going up a weight each year.

 

Howe won't put as many points on the board as a guy like Taylor or Ruth, and his 2nd-1st-3rd record at NCAAs doesn't equal Dake, but all indicia are that Howe is just a little further ahead than these others guys right now. Maybe others have more future potential than Howe, but as of right now, I just don't see the argument that anyone's better than Howe.

 

I think this is dead on. You could easily imagine a scenario where Howe is going for his 4th title right now. True Freshman Year, though he lost to King he probably wins that match eight out of ten times. Sophomore Year, he pretty much dominates. Junior Year, if not for Burroughs getting hurt the year before and thus coming back, and then an injury which hurt him against Tyler Caldwell he wins that year as well. I was also very impressed with how he handled Paulson at Olympic Trials this year- won with two TD's no ball draws and he looked great against Burroughs as well.

 

Bottom line though is that the "super seven" are so even I feel like a respectable argument could be made for almost any order between them. Maybe that's an elite eight with Kilgore. Rounding out the top ten imo are Wright and Tyler Caldwell. HM's imo are Ramos, Bosak, Nelson, Gelogaev, and maybe Chamberlain, and/or Maple.

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Wow, not a single person picking Howe.

 

If Jordan Burroughs didn't exist, we wouldn't even be having the conversation of who's the top guy. Howe would be the Olympics rep. Even then he only barely lost to World Champ Burroughs in the first match before having to withdraw, and he won the Olympic challenge tournament with Dake and Taylor in the bracket, beating the latter 1-0, 5-0. Howe was 2nd to Burroughs to be our rep at Worlds last year too, beating Dake (up a weight) en route, and before that, Howe had already won US Nationals and made a world team.

 

Granted, freestyle isn't folkstyle, but the reality is that no one not named Jordan Burroughs has showed an ability to even get a takedown on Howe, especially over the past year. If the rationale is that Howe may lose a step up at 174, then where's that rationale for Ruth, and of course there's Dake going up a weight each year.

 

Howe won't put as many points on the board as a guy like Taylor or Ruth, and his 2nd-1st-3rd record at NCAAs doesn't equal Dake, but all indicia are that Howe is just a little further ahead than these others guys right now. Maybe others have more future potential than Howe, but as of right now, I just don't see the argument that anyone's better than Howe.

 

A 100% healthy Howe at 165 I would put at #1, however, a 100% healthy Ruth at 174 would make me put them at 1a and 1b. And I said that in my opening thread. I believe these 2 are the best well rounded wrestlers in Collegiate wrestling. Health and weight changes are the ONLY reason I have Dake and Taylor above them.

In no way am I trying to diminish Dake's value since I truly think he is VERY close to them but he just seems to peter out a bit at the end of matches. With a Metcalf like gas tank I would put Dake ahead of them.

Taylor is the hardest one for me to rank. He dominates almost every match he wrestles. I simply think he has been in 2 weight classes where the B1G has been at its weakest and hasn't had to wrestle anyone with true National Championship quality until the NCAA's. A couple of matches with Caldwell this year will tell alot about how good he really is and I still hope to see Howe or Dake at 165 so he can eliminate any doubts. Also, I agree that if he can muscle up a bit he could become untouchable.

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Ok, so it's no secret the PSU fans have already started to erect a statue to DT and if he gets beat there are an infinite number of excuses. The throw by Dake in FS would have been only 2 for Taylor? you need to watch the match w/o the Nittany blue glasses. No back points for Dake? TD for Taylor? Seriously! If you truly watched the match with objective eyes, Taylor did come around at the end but Dake never lost control going off the mat. That's 2 and 2 in folkstyle, which is the same it scored in FS.

Dake would not have gotten the throw in folk? That's not a move specific to FS as I know it. No pin, yes I agree with that but it would still be another 2 + 2, which by my folk math would be 8-0 in 2 periods.

I totally agree that a folk match if it ever happens would be much different and DT has the ability to beat Dake, but to wipe the match away like it never happened and make excuse after excuse to justify the great one losing, and to of all people a Cornell wrestler...well this is just crazy stuff.

He beat your beloved Tank, DA, and now DT. There are so many reasons why but one may be, and you obviously will never accept it, is that Dake is one hell of a wrestler and will go down as one of the best ever. DT most likely will as well, so just let things take their course and see what happens. Excuses are for losers.

Remember it was the PSU fans that were all over the message boards wanting a Dake/Taylor match at the trials and they got their wish. They just can't accept the result and that is sad. I am not from Cornell but I would bet they would not act the same way, especially since they didn't need Dake to beat guys at different weights to justify his goodness, and why does PSU do that with DT? Go figure...

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Ok, so it's no secret the PSU fans have already started to erect a statue to DT and if he gets beat there are an infinite number of excuses. The throw by Dake in FS would have been only 2 for Taylor? you need to watch the match w/o the Nittany blue glasses. No back points for Dake? TD for Taylor? Seriously! If you truly watched the match with objective eyes, Taylor did come around at the end but Dake never lost control going off the mat. That's 2 and 2 in folkstyle, which is the same it scored in FS.

Dake would not have gotten the throw in folk? That's not a move specific to FS as I know it. No pin, yes I agree with that but it would still be another 2 + 2, which by my folk math would be 8-0 in 2 periods.

I totally agree that a folk match if it ever happens would be much different and DT has the ability to beat Dake, but to wipe the match away like it never happened and make excuse after excuse to justify the great one losing, and to of all people a Cornell wrestler...well this is just crazy stuff.

He beat your beloved Tank, DA, and now DT. There are so many reasons why but one may be, and you obviously will never accept it, is that Dake is one hell of a wrestler and will go down as one of the best ever. DT most likely will as well, so just let things take their course and see what happens. Excuses are for losers.

Remember it was the PSU fans that were all over the message boards wanting a Dake/Taylor match at the trials and they got their wish. They just can't accept the result and that is sad. I am not from Cornell but I would bet they would not act the same way, especially since they didn't need Dake to beat guys at different weights to justify his goodness, and why does PSU do that with DT? Go figure...

 

How do you think Howe stacks up with Dake?

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Steiber might be every bit as good as Howe. This season is so top heavy you are finding a lot of guys are finding it difficult to put Taylor in the top 4.

 

Scribe: You beat me to it. Stieber and Howe have similar accomplishments. Both are outstanding in both styles. Stieber has wins in free over virtually every American that matters sans Coleman Scott and was an Olympic Trials finalist. In folk, he beat the superb Jordan Oliver.

 

If we're ranking based on talent, accomplishments and potential, then my top four--in no particular order:

 

Dake, Howe, Stieber and Oliver.

 

 

..is Ruth at least 5th in your rankings?

 

Ruth may yet prove to be the best of the bunch. He's an extraordinary talent.

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4 and 4 for Dake vs Taylor....watch the video again please.

 

Dake puts Taylor on his back twice from the feet.

 

Kyle Dake is the real deal...when will people finally give him his due? They said "lucky or weak weight" when he was a freshman while he dominated M Marion in the final. Then, he spanks Molinaro like a red headed stepchild as a soph, and the people cry " worst 2 timer ever". He manhandles St John in his jr year NCAA final and all but a super ramped up Andrew Howe in the OTT and you think that Taylor is better? Wow....wake up DUDE!

 

and it wasn't a knee "tap", it was a thigh "pull".

 

 

MM has great individual accomplishments with the 2 titles and 3 finals appearances in 3 years. However, he has failed to dominate at a consistent level as Dake, Taylor, Ruth, Steiber have. He is consistently in tight matches where you can argue he was in a position to lose. He is more consistently unimpressive, and less dominant in matches than the others mentioned. He has career accomplishments yes, but he is far from dominant. And dont give me the tight scores that Dake has had. Even in tight scored matches, he never seems to be out of controll, and you never get the feeling he didnt just dominate the guy. Taylor has spent 2 straight years just absolutely embarrassing people. I dont want to hear the level of competition excuse, this is D1 wrestling, everyone is tough. The past 2 years werent the first time a weight was a little weaker than others, but NO ONE has ever dominated those weights like DT has. In Folk, he is the best wrestler in the country, PERIOD. He isnt strong enough for freestyle. You think Howe would have gotten those simple spin arounds in folk? NO. That double underhook that "pancaked" Taylor to his back from Dake? Yeah Taylor rolled through and ended up on top of Dake. 2 for Taylor in folk, not 3 for Dake like it was in Freestyle. The pin in freestyle by Dake, is just a simple 2 td for Dake in folk. Not to mention Taylor most likely would have finished the shot a tad different, and not get knee tapped to his back. Taylor is a few years in the weight room, and a full year of training straight freestyle away from being a serious international contender. Best pure technician since Cael.

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I'll put my over valued 2 cents worth in...

First I'll say Dake is my favorite wrestler to watch.....and that Taylor is NOT the best technical wrestler out there, his lack of proper position has gotten him stuck twice by wrestlers who were more than happy to take advantage of that... I will say I REALLY like Taylor's attack mode.absolutely fun to watch.

 

1. Dake

2. Kilgore

3.Ruth

4.McD

5.Taylor

6.Steiber

7.Oliver

8.Howe..here because I don't know about the injury situation

9.Caldwell

10. Z..again injuries????

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I friggen love this sport.

 

Lots of great arguments. I'm impressed that so many now put Dake so high. I think that Freestyle match has made many give him his due.

 

someone just called Taylor the best technical wrestler ... I get the point, the guys simply is poetry in motion. But, the next point that he got stuck twice and he is vulnerable to TDs ... this is an important point.

 

Can't wait for this next season. Seems like every season is better than the next!!

 

My top 10:

 

t1: Dake, Ruth

t3: Taylor, Howe

 

then in a rough order Stieber, Kilgor, McDonough, Oliver, Nelson, (having a hard time with number 10 - want to put Bosak but Hamlin has too many wins against him).

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1. Dake

2. Taylor

3. Ruth

4. McDonough

5. Howe

6. Oliver

7. Stieber

8. Wright

9. Kilgore

10. St. John

 

Let me explain these rankings a little bit first.

 

The top two collegiate wrestlers are clearly Dake and Taylor. Dake has the three titles, and Taylor has the Hodge and insane dominance. The way I distinguish them is simply Dake crushing Taylor in freestyle. If that result hadn't happened I'd flip the two.

 

As for Ruth, what is the reasoning for him being better than Taylor?? Taylor was better as a freshman, better as a sophomore, and better in freestyle. Taylor went 3-2 in the trials and placed 5th, Ruth went either 0-2 or 1-2 and beat no one of note. Taylor won the Hodge, Ruth was 2nd. Taylor won most dominant, B1G Wrestler of the year, OW at nationals. Ruth was barely behind him in all of those categories, but he was still behind him in every way I can think of. 165 was weakish last year, but Taylor went pin-pin-pin-pin-tech in NCAAs. Best result since Howard Harris in 1980.

 

Ruth is next, and as a Hawkeye fan it's hard to say.

 

McDonough is better than Howe in folkstyle. McDonough is the 2x national champion. McDonough won as a freshman and has been a finalist every year. McDonough is more dominant than Howe with less career losses. Plus, Howe's coming off some sort of surgery this year, so who knows just how effective he'll be. McDonough has the resume over Howe. If McDonough is prone to early season conditioning problems, then Howe is prone to injuries. Some people have been able to slow down McDonough, and the same can be said for Howe. McDonough is better than Howe in folkstyle.

 

Between Oliver and Stieber, Oliver has the better career and dominated Stieber at the national duals. The finals he did lose, but it was extremely controversial. Sorry, I can't put Stieber over Oliver because of one very controversial win. Lest we forget how easily Oliver handled (and turned) Stieber. That said, I think Stieber has the higher ceiling. His freestyle is great, but it's always been that way. Stieber also had a few ? losses his real freshman year, to Patterson and Perelli.

 

Wright is up there because of the two finals appearances and NC. He really turns it on last half of the season.

 

Kilgore has the national championship. However he was a #4 seed and getting crushed in the finals before pinning Foster. St. John had an incredible year after the injury, only losing to Dake who is #1 on this list. I'd say these two are flip floppable, but Kilgore has the NC.

 

EDIT: Why is McDonough so low on these lists? He's #5 at the lowest.

 

I'm no Taylor fan, for sure, but why is he so lowly rated on everyone's list? I can't see any reasoning for him behind anyone but Dake. Maybe Howe too, but this is a collegiate list not freestyle. As I explained above he's better than Ruth in every measurable way. And there's no comparison to everyone else.

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1. Dake

2. Taylor

3. Ruth

4. McDonough

5. Howe

6. Oliver

7. Stieber

8. Wright

9. Kilgore

10. St. John

 

I'm no Taylor fan, for sure, but why is he so lowly rated on everyone's list? I can't see any reasoning for him behind anyone but Dake. Maybe Howe too, but this is a collegiate list not freestyle. As I explained above he's better than Ruth in every measurable way. And there's no comparison to everyone else.

 

Your list is fine and makes sense (except for the St. John part). But just like the other lists, its only speculation. I think people have Ruth higher than Taylor because last year, he was slightly less dominant (but very, very dominant) over a tougher weight class. And we haven't seen him pinned.

 

I think people are going to freestyle results in order to figure out where Dake and Taylor and Howe stand relative to one another. It's not perfect, but its the best we have. If Ruth had wrestled a p4p candidate in freestyle and lost badly or had clearly been significantly worse than one, I'm sure people would use those results as well. But that didn't happen (as far as I know). What we did see, however, was an 8-2 win over Hamlin, which was up a weight for him.

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Hawkeye, I think your picks are as legit as anyone else's. Small correction that Oliver did not turn Stieber in any meeting this year.

 

I had McDonough at #7, but if you said you thought he was better Dake, Ruth and Taylor I wouldn't argue too much.

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I've said it time and time again, you can just tell by watching the two wrestler that Ruth is better than Taylor. As I've stated before, there are people out there who know for sure and I'd be ecstatic to hear them set the record straight, but until they do I'm going to go on imagining that Ruth smokes Taylor because that is what I see on the mat. Also, Ruth lost to a guy in what appeared like a give up because he came back and smoked the field injured to get third. Then humiliated Amuch in the rematch. Taylor was decked by a guy we all saw Metcalf play with. Then Dake manhandles him. What Taylor needs desperately is some marquee wins. Bonus pointing the hell out of inferior competition will play up to some and to some it won't. For these reasons alone I can't see anyone putting Taylor above Ruth. Until someone reports that Taylor gets the best of Ruth I'll always believe the opposite.

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