Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
newyorkwrestler

dake is a BEAST

Recommended Posts

So you think he has a better chance to beat Burroughs than he does at winning 86kg? ( Also, I say everything while being a big Dake fan.  The guy is awesome and I believe he could medal at 74kg.) The problem is, he will have to do it in a best 2 out of 3 series after having wrestled the challenge tournament.  With all things being equal, winning 2 against Burroughs hasn't happened yet.  Hell Burroughs has only lost twice his whole International career.  And that is with everything being equal.  Add in the bye to the finals and it just isn't going to happen.  That isn't an excuse it is just the simple truth.

I think Dake has a better chance of Burroughs getting injured or taking a year off than he does medaling at the worlds or Olympics at 86.

 

If the goal was just make the Olympic team then sure, he probably had a better chance of at 86 and 74. If it goal is to compete internationally against the best in the world, than there is no way 86 is better than 74 for him. IMHO anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dake should go 70 in 2017, can win world titles

 

 

Agreed.  Nothing wrong with winning world titles and being on the world team, representing USA.   

 

Keep in mind Cox just rolled off the couch, following a folkstyle season, and blitzed the field.   He is that good (and that big).   Give him more time to develop and focus full time on freestyle, perhaps only Taylor has a shot at beating him (as he fully matures into ta full size 86kg).   I believe Dake has a better shot down at 74 kg against Burroughs than he does going forward at 86 kg.   

 

He's got so much talent, it's a  shame to see it not showcased on the world stage.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Beating Burroughs in the current qualifying format is near impossible even for Dake.  But, if it can be done than Kyle is the one who can accomplish it.  86 was a level field and even though Cox had to negotiate it as well it definitely took it's toll on Kyle.

Perry was a rough one with a lot of physical stuff.  Taylor is Taylor and wrestled him tough as nails.  Give credit to Cox.  Aside from being the bigger athlete, he is really good.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Obviously it was the same result, but still curious how this Dake-Taylor match went. I'm guessing it was discussed already, but don't feel like going through 50,000+ posts to find it. The match video would be greatly appreciated (c'mon USA Wrestling, can't you upload that match - please?).

 

Anyway, Dake looked tiny compared to J'Den. Got to see the Taylor vs Herbert and Gavin matches, and thought Taylor's size looked like a legit 86er. DT just cannot get past Dake. Would have loved to see a Taylor-Cox final, but Kid Dynamite had other intentions.

 

Having said all that, congrats to J'Den Cox on an NCAA championship followed by an OTT championship. Very impressive. Best of luck in Mongolia! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dake walks around at 185, in a years time he can get to 154. i think he would be a 3x world medalist come 2020. not to mention he would make much more money if he wins world titles at 70 than if he doesn't make a team at 86. Cut won't be fun but if he starts making his way down soon it's do able

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Prize money for the Yarigan and other Grand Prix events--not a ton of cash, but enough to supplement a coaching stipend and national team stipend.  More money at 74 for Dake in my view (which has been known to be very wrong) than at 86.  And a possible cut to 70 for non-Olympic years could be lucrative. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Isnt the prize for winning worlds something like 50k? plus adding world champion to ones resume makes them more marketable and gain more sponsorships. not to mention the added skill and experience he would get from competing at worlds and being the guy the national coaches focus on all summer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Dake has a better chance of Burroughs getting injured or taking a year off than he does medaling at the worlds or Olympics at 86.

 

If the goal was just make the Olympic team then sure, he probably had a better chance of at 86 and 74. If it goal is to compete internationally against the best in the world, than there is no way 86 is better than 74 for him. IMHO anyway.

 

This is a very good point. I hope Kyle Dake will continue to test the waters internationally at 86kg so he can make the best decision for himself -- not just in terms of being the USA Wrestling rep, but a world medalist.

 

The 86kg World/Olympic Team spot could be up for grabs next cycle, though. As I mentioned earlier, we don't know if J'Den Cox will be able to make the weight cut over the course of the next quadrennial, and it's not even clear whether he'll stick with a freestyle wrestling career. I really hope he does, but it could be tough to ignore the MMA promoters that I'm sure are in his ear right now. 

 

I would also challenge the running assumption that Jordan Burroughs will medal in Rio and earn another challenge tournament bye at the 2017 WTTs. Of course he's more than proven himself and is the odds on favorite to win 74kg, but crazier things have happened.  In the slim but possible chance JB doesn't medal, I'm sure Dake will be back at 74kg in a heartbeat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey neutralposition, thanks for posting the match. Really appreciate it.

 

Not a whole bunch of action, especially in the first period. Looked like Taylor was being very cautious. He probably didn't want get caught in Dake's trapped arm gut again (half serious here). 

 

Really can't blame Taylor that much for his strategy considering all the previous outcomes, and have to give credit to Dake for winning yet again. But geez, that match reminded me of the strategy of so many American wrestlers vs international wrestlers over the years. Be cautious, don't make a mistake, but end up losing anyway.

 

Would rather have seen DT try to blitz KD and open it up and do what he does best instead of trying to beat Kyle with one takedown. Sure, Dake is great, and he might have throttled Taylor anyway if they went into a 6 minute shootout, but with Taylor's weight advantage, thought that would be the way to finally beat KD. I know, hindsight is 20/20. 

 

All due respect to Kid Dynamite. Even though he lost in the finals, he put on a great show. As many of us have said, just too bad there weren't more weight classes where we could have both DT and KD representing Team USA.

 

They are definitely two of my favorite wrestlers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dake made a horrible decision moving up to 84 - his goal is to win medals not make the team. He is too small for 84.

 

With all the talk about the rules of leg lace in Freestyle, Dake was right there with Burroughs.

 

Take out that throw in the first match that was somewhat controversial, and Dake not being ready and getting laced and Dake looked like he could hang with Burroughs

 

Of all the matches I want to see a 74k match between Dake and Burroughs again. 

 

Dake looks like he has improved his offense this year too, able to get to the leg in must score situations or die and he did so against Perry, and Cox a few times.

 

With what a gamer Dake is, it's a real headscratcher that he moved up IMO. He should try to take Burroughs out. 

 

Dake is talented enough not to be afraid of anybody. 

 

- Also Dake was just coming back from a injury when he faced Burroughs last year and did not have much mat time.

Edited by matness

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He stated that JB has too much of an advantage sitting out the challenge tournament. I agree. You are not the same guy after wrestling a few hard matches a couple of hours before. Your body literally does not have an ability to replenish glycogen fast enough in the available rest period. Dake knew that on his best day, fresh, he was still an underdog, so beating JB twice on dead legs was mission impossible. I agree with his decision. He has to worry about making a team before earning a medal. Clearly, he is perfectly suited for 74 kg, but it's better to have a real shot to make the team than to try to face the second best wrestler in US history and currently one of two best in the world at any weight when he has a physical advantage over you.

 

I too would love to see another JB vs. Dake best of 3.

Edited by wrestlingnerd

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dake spends more energy and is hurt more in conditioning by wrestling at 86 ! than he would even through the challenge tournament at 74. He is expending more energy wrestling the big guys.

 

Dake looks like a tired dog after his matches at 84. 

 

I don't see conditioning as the reason why Dake lost last year. 

 

I think it's an easy thing to point the blame at. The real reason he lost was he lost his attention and let JB get one off the whistle and because of a tough call.

 

He looked plenty good enough outside of that , so I don't by the conditioning argument.

Edited by matness

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

the same could be said for Taylor and the "weight cut" 

 

To me, he looked alot more explosive at 74 than 86

 

Really, Dake and Taylor are looking fore excuses rather than the truth. One excuse is the weight cut the other is not getting to rest

 

The truth is they just didn't want to face JB

 

I think Dake that was a wrong decision

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How can you say it was wrong? Dake won the US Open at 86. He lost by one point in the rubber match of the OTT. The only way it was wrong in retrospect is if you assume he would have beaten Burroughs.  In prospect, it looks even more correct. That said, neither choice would have put him in the Olympics (unless Cox or Burroughs got hurt).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He stated that JB has too much of an advantage sitting out the challenge tournament. I agree. You are not the same guy after wrestling a few hard matches a couple of hours before. Your body literally does not have an ability to replenish glycogen fast enough in the available rest period. Dake knew that on his best day, fresh, he was still an underdog, so beating JB twice on dead legs was mission impossible. I agree with his decision. He has to worry about making a team before earning a medal. Clearly, he is perfectly suited for 74 kg, but it's better to have a real shot to make the team than to try to face the second best wrestler in US history and currently one of two best in the world at any weight when he has a physical advantage over you.

If Cox medals in Rio, he'll get to sit out the challenge tournament next year.  Then what?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If Cox medals in Rio, he'll get to sit out the challenge tournament next year. Then what?

Would you rather try to beat JB or Cox? If I'm Dske, I would spend the next year bulking up properly and try to take out Cox, who is disadvantaged by not being a full-time FS "professional" athlete. Dake was a hair away from winning the series while weighing 185 on a full stomach dripping wet.

 

Some guys are pretending like the move up was stupid when in fact he came extremely close to making the team with only half a year of preparation for the heavier weight. It's not like he didn't win the US Open and got bludgeoned by a bunch of folks at the OTT....

Edited by wrestlingnerd

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dake ain't gettin to the Olympics unless he buys a ticket.  He's ain't beating Burroughs...like ever and he lost to Cox who's essentially an amateur.  Once/if Cox stars really doing this like a job, Dake is toast...time to start coaching.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dake ain't gettin to the Olympics unless he buys a ticket.  He's ain't beating Burroughs...like ever and he lost to Cox who's essentially an amateur.  Once/if Cox stars really doing this like a job, Dake is toast...time to start coaching.

LOL - DT fans showing their desparation...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think there's two things going on here. First, Dake came very close, very very close to winning the Olympic trials. He lost two matches to one in the trials finals to a two time NCAA champion who wrestled three college weights above his highest college weight. To get to the finals Dake had to best a field that included David Taylor, Jake Herbert, Keith Gavin and Ed Ruth, among others. This field included three former world team members (Herbert, Gavin and Ruth), two hodge trophy winners besides Dake (Tayor and Herbert). That's the good news.

 

The bad news is that the weight class is not qualified and despite all the trophies and world team members, there was only one world medal in the group, Jake Herbert's 2009 silver medal. And it's precisely because the weight class was so weak that Dake was able to get so far. I would wager that if the weight class had the kind of quality that was likely to medal in the worlds, it would already be qualified and Dake would not have done so well. 

 

The even worse news is that from here Cox is going to get better and Dake isn't likely to get much better. Cox has zero experience wrestling the senior level in freestyle. He never entered senior nationals, never went overseas (at the senior level) and so has massive potential to improve. He may just "get the bug" and realize that he has the potential to become one of the true greats in US wrestling history. He is already a two time NCAA champion and we essentially undefeated last year (there was that illegal slam, of course). He made the Olympic team this year despite not having taken an Olympic redshirt. He might just be turning the idea in his head "what if?"

 

Cox in some ways came completely out of nowhere. He entered the trials after a long NCAA season and having done little or not training in freestyle. My point is that Dake and every other person on the 86kg is vulnerable to someone coming out of nowhere and overtaking the field. I believe Cox is incredibly good and could own the spot for a while, but consider that Gabe Dean is a junior world bronze medalist. Consider that Zahid Valencia is still wrestling the junior level and very well could fill out to become a legit 86kg wrestler. Either which way I foresee a fairly big turnover at that particular weight and imagine that in two or three years our top three include at most one person not currently in high school or college. In other words, in two or three years its Cox and two other people who didn't even wrestler in this years trials. That's my prediction.

 

As for Dake I have a slightly more optimistic view than "he will never make the team." But only slightly. I think that Dake was very smart to go 86kg this year, and I've talked about this in past posts. The logic that gets me there is precisely the same logic that people are using to say he will never make another team. It's just that for me the logic stops at this year. By going up a weight, Dake is creating a reset against JB. He needed and needs twelve to twenty-four months during which he doesn't wrestle the guy, so that when he does wrestle him again it's like a level playing field. This kind of reset is Dake's last best hope of beating JB. Further, by going up a weight, temporarily (did I mention I believe that this is entirely temporary?), he is remaking himself as a wrestler. He is learning to wrestler bigger and stronger folks, he is learning to move differently, he is learning to think differently. 

 

Now, will this turn out to be enough? Who knows? But here's a story I told before that I think is worth repeating. Dave Schultz did exactly this back in the early 1980s. As we all know Lee Kemp was the man in the late 1970s and early 1980s. From 1978 to 1982 Kemp made every world team and Olympic team and won Gold, Gold, DNC, Bronze, Gold. The DNC is for 1980 when the US boycotted the Moscow Olympics. It's remarkable to me that Burrough's first five world appearances have been Gold, Gold, Gold, Bronze, Gold, essentially matching Kemp's exact pattern. Assuming Kemp would have won the Moscow Olympics, the pattern is identical. So what happened and what does this have to do with Dake and Burroughs? As I understand the history, Dave Schultz was the second best USA wrestler at 74kg in the early 1980s but could not beat Kemp. So he took a year off and went up a weight to 82kg, won the world team trials and took third in the worlds. The next year Kemp decided not to compete in the trials, Schultz dropped back down to 74kg, made the team and won a world Gold. The next year in the 1984 Olympic trials, Schultz beat Kemp to make the team.

 

There are a few obvious differences so this isn't a perfect comparison. Schultz won NCAAs in 1982 so was quite a bit younger than Kemp when he made the move up. He moved up to 82kg (that was the weight then) and not 86kg. Kemp took a year off the next year and was reported to have lost some of his determination going into 1984. I am focused, however, on the strategy, and not the outcome. The strategy was to get away from Kemp and reset. He did and it worked. 

 

As a last thought (this is quite the long thread), as they say, **** happens. The idea that JB will want to compete in every world team from here out, will never get injured, will never want to or need to take a year off, seems implausible. Look again at Schultz. He made every world team at 74kg from 1983 to 1987 and then did not make any world team from 1988 to 1992 during which time Kenny Monday won two golds and two silvers. But then in 1993, 1994 and 1995 Schultz made the team and placed 2nd, 5th, 7th. He was the leading contender to make the 1996 Olympic team but we all know the tragic end so I won't repeat it. Monday made the team that year. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...