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dake is a BEAST

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Interesting history BTF. But I take issue with one key assumption you make which I think is BS (no offense). Dake is 25 years old and took a year off due to injury since graduating. Do you really think he will not improve at all from here on out? That's ridiculous. He has shown significant improvement every year since starting his FS career. He's not going to reach an asymptote anytime soon. There was no way he was winning the US Open last year with a massive weight jump, let alone being a point or a few seconds away (take your pick) from making the Olympic team.

 

If you haven't noticed a significant increase in Dake's effectiveness and TD variety since graduating college you haven't watched enough, or at least not closely enough.

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I did not see the match but a friend of mine told me that the passivity point awarded to Dake when he beat Taylor was questionable to say the least.  Not that it matters now but for those who saw the match was the call and point awarded "legitimate"?

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I did not see the match but a friend of mine told me that the passivity point awarded to Dake when he beat Taylor was questionable to say the least.  Not that it matters now but for those who saw the match was the call and point awarded "legitimate"?

Here's a link to video provided earlier in this thread: 

 

Taylor gets put in the shot clock with about 1:42 left first period; immediately prior to that (starting w/ about 1:53 on the clock), Dake was controlling a pretty solid tie - head and underhook - and Taylor is clearly trying to pull out of the tie, blocking w/ the head.  I'm not well versed in freestyle rules, but seems to me when you lower your head and back out, you're vulnerable to getting called on it.

Edited by redblades

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Interesting history BTF. But I take issue with one key assumption you make which I think is BS (no offense). Dake is 25 years old and took a year off due to injury since graduating. Do you really think he will not improve at all from here on out? That's ridiculous. He has shown significant improvement every year since starting his FS career. He's not going to reach an asymptote anytime soon. There was no way he was winning the US Open last year with a massive weight jump, let alone being a point or a few seconds away (take your pick) from making the Olympic team.

 

If you haven't noticed a significant increase in Dake's effectiveness and TD variety since graduating college you haven't watched enough, or at least not closely enough.

Agree with this line of thinking, plus extra credit for using asymptote in a wrestling forum post

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Interesting history BTF. But I take issue with one key assumption you make which I think is BS (no offense). Dake is 25 years old and took a year off due to injury since graduating. Do you really think he will not improve at all from here on out? That's ridiculous. He has shown significant improvement every year since starting his FS career. He's not going to reach an asymptote anytime soon. There was no way he was winning the US Open last year with a massive weight jump, let alone being a point or a few seconds away (take your pick) from making the Olympic team.

 

If you haven't noticed a significant increase in Dake's effectiveness and TD variety since graduating college you haven't watched enough, or at least not closely enough.

I'm not offended, I just don't get why you think I implied Dake has reached his limit. I tend to think he has plenty time to continue improving. That's why I mentioned that Dave Schultz won a world silver in 1993 and made the world team in 1994 and 1995. Schultz was a senior in college in 1982 mind you. In the back of my mind was also that Kenny Monday. Kenny Monday won NCAAs as a senior in college in 1984. He was born in 1961 and was two years younger than Dave Schultz. As far as I know Schultz was completely ahead of Monday until 1988 (does anyone know the exact story) and then in 1988 Monday beat Schultz pretty handily.

 

More to come! Peace.

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I'm not offended, I just don't get why you think I implied Dake has reached his limit.

Glad you're not offended since no offense was intended at all.

 

You started your third paragraph with this sentence which I vehemently disagree with:

 

"The even worse news is that from here Cox is going to get better and Dake isn't likely to get much better."

 

No way. Which year since the beginning of high school and possibly earlier has Dake not improved substantially? He improved even while being injured for a year, which is friggin' uncanny.

 

Sure, Dake is better- established as a freestyler than Cox, but he weighs 4-5 lbs under the weight limit after two Happy Meals, a double milkshake, and sopping wet. He has huge physical upside if he trains properly, and if anyone knows how to train properly to gain quality weight, it's Dake, who only had about six months to gain whatever he could and only got up to 185 on a full stomach with a little bit of noticeable bodyfat increase to boot. He is obviously short for the weight class, but so are plenty of historical studs. It can be argued that Dake is not as mesomorphic as, say, Sadulaev, but he can certainly pack in another 5-10 lbs of muscle over the next 12-18 months. He'll then look like his teammate Gabe Dean, who is impressive but by no means a muscular Goliath type freak show. That type of physique is achievable for Dake, who will forever be small for the weight but is currently comically tiny. He doesn't look small at 86 kg, he looks like the coach made a game-day decision to bump up a 74 kg'er because the 86 kg guy didn't make weight or was sick. And yet he almost took out the weight's biggest physical monster, albeit a young one, and won the US Open at that weight with even less time to develop physically than he had for the OTT. That is incredibly impressive to me and underappreciated by fans who quickly forget how incredibly important weight is in a weight class combat sport. It is a HUGE factor (pun definitely intended).

 

Meanwhile, Cox may struggle with the cut at worst and has no physical upside at best. He's a grown ass man. It's not like he's Mark Hall.

 

I fully agree Cox is looking like another talent outlier, and he is a complete and utter stud from whom I wish to take no credit. But Kyle Dake is as much if not more of an outlier and still has years of upside in skill, physique, conditioning, and strategy. We are lucky to be watching all this go down. This is the type of drama that helps a sport grow or at least sustain interest.

Edited by wrestlingnerd

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Glad you're not offended since no offense was intended at all.

 

You started your third paragraph with this sentence which I vehemently disagree with:

 

"The even worse news is that from here Cox is going to get better and Dake isn't likely to get much better."

 

No way. Which year since the beginning of high school and possibly earlier has Dake not improved substantially? He improved even while being injured for a year, which is friggin' uncanny.

 

Sure, Dake is better- established as a freestyler than Cox, but he weighs 4-5 lbs under the weight limit after two Happy Meals, a double milkshake, and sopping wet. He has huge physical upside if he trains properly, and if anyone knows how to train properly to gain quality weight, it's Dake, who only had about six months to gain whatever he could and only got up to 185 on a full stomach with a little bit of noticeable bodyfat increase to boot. He is obviously short for the weight class, but so are plenty of historical studs. It can be argued that Dake is not as mesomorphic as, say, Sadulaev, but he can certainly pack in another 5-10 lbs of muscle over the next 12-18 months. He'll then look like his teammate Gabe Dean, who is impressive but by no means a muscular Goliath type freak show. That type of physique is achievable for Dake, who will forever be small for the weight by is currently comically tiny. And yet he almost took out he weight's biggest physical monster, albeit a young one.

 

Meanwhile, Cox may struggle with the cut at worst and has no physical upside at best. He's a grown ass man. It's not like he's Mark Hall.

 

I fully agree Cox is looking like another talent outlier, and he is a complete and utter stud from whom I wish to take no credit. But Kyle Dake is as much if not more of an outlier and still has years of upside in skill, physique, conditioning, and strategy. We are lucky to be watching all this go down. This is the type of drama that helps a sport grow or at least sustain interest.

This man said J'Den has no upside. He actually said it. Wow

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This man said J'Den has no upside. He actually said it. Wow

 

Learn to read. I said he had no physical upside, which is absolutely NOT the same as saying he has no upside. He is at max weight to be able to make the weight without sacrificing performance negatively. He is a physical monster. He is like Imart going all the way down to 143 lbs for freestyle. Cox has tremendous upside, just not physically.

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J'Den Cox is not yet a large 86 kg. He is the same size as Foster, who was dwarfed by the Iranian at the world cup.

 

That's what you think. But what J'Den himself states is that he cut to about 197, and then shed the remaining water in a day. There's also the fact that he was recruited to Mizzou as a heavyweight prospect and cut (apparently a fair amount) over the summer to lean out for 197 (let alone 189). I believe it was Ben Askren who stated in his show that J'Den walks around comfortably at around 225 if he wasn't cutting for the sport.

 

Dake used to walk around at 172 lbs while wrestling 165 just a few years ago, and after eating 4,000+ calories a day for six straight months and lifting like a maniac, got to 185 after a full breakfast. 

 

One man has tremendous size potential to fill out 189. The other man is already there, or very, very close. That offsets the fact that one man has three more years of freestyle than the other. The point is simply this: To say that either, at ages 25 and 20-21, is close to their peak potential is simply wrong.

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Since Dake is smaller than Cox and Cox cuts weight, he can close the size gap. He doesn't become a better wrestler in the process, IMO.

Cox isn't quite done maturing physically. He will get stronger and more explosive.

Gaining size, unless it's pure fat, IS becoming a better wrestler. Size is one of the most important factors in wrestling. That's why they have weight classes. Going up a weight while giving up the weight gap is a major disadvantage. Going up two while giving up that gap, which is effectively what 74 to 86 is, is a nearly insurmountable disadvantage for all but the most elite freaks.

 

If Dake did not improve his wrestling skill at all, which is a preposterous thought given his youth and long track record of continuous improvement, and only gained size, he would automatically become a better wrestler on the added size/strength/power alone. My strong belief is he'll do both, but I called out his uniquely small size at 86 because it is so glaringly obvious as low-hanging fruit to pick.

Edited by wrestlingnerd

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Yes...it was discussed ad nauseum that his walk around weight and weigh in weight were 185. He looked muscular for a human of his height. He looked very small compared to Cox and Richard Perry, and he looked very small compared to the competition he faced in Georgia and Russia prior to this.

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I thought the Perry match told the story. Perry was bigger and was able to push Dake around and control the ties. Dake won the match but if Perry is clubbing him what would the top international guys do to him at this weight. That is not to diminish from the fact that he made the finals against an impressive field and came excruciatingly close to making the team. It was absolutely the right decision under the circumstances. But moving up from a weight with a 163 limit to a weight with a 189 pound limit is tremendous. Size matters as much as speed. That means he is competing against opponents cutting from 200+. It would be great if the weights were readjusted to have less of a weight difference (I could see Dake being very competitive at 83kg), but the facts of life. 

Edited by straggler

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Glad you're not offended since no offense was intended at all.

 

You started your third paragraph with this sentence which I vehemently disagree with:

 

"The even worse news is that from here Cox is going to get better and Dake isn't likely to get much better."

 

No way. Which year since the beginning of high school and possibly earlier has Dake not improved substantially? He improved even while being injured for a year, which is friggin' uncanny.

 

Sure, Dake is better- established as a freestyler than Cox, but he weighs 4-5 lbs under the weight limit after two Happy Meals, a double milkshake, and sopping wet. He has huge physical upside if he trains properly, and if anyone knows how to train properly to gain quality weight, it's Dake, who only had about six months to gain whatever he could and only got up to 185 on a full stomach with a little bit of noticeable bodyfat increase to boot. He is obviously short for the weight class, but so are plenty of historical studs. It can be argued that Dake is not as mesomorphic as, say, Sadulaev, but he can certainly pack in another 5-10 lbs of muscle over the next 12-18 months. He'll then look like his teammate Gabe Dean, who is impressive but by no means a muscular Goliath type freak show. That type of physique is achievable for Dake, who will forever be small for the weight but is currently comically tiny. He doesn't look small at 86 kg, he looks like the coach made a game-day decision to bump up a 74 kg'er because the 86 kg guy didn't make weight or was sick. And yet he almost took out the weight's biggest physical monster, albeit a young one, and won the US Open at that weight with even less time to develop physically than he had for the OTT. That is incredibly impressive to me and underappreciated by fans who quickly forget how incredibly important weight is in a weight class combat sport. It is a HUGE factor (pun definitely intended).

 

Meanwhile, Cox may struggle with the cut at worst and has no physical upside at best. He's a grown ass man. It's not like he's Mark Hall.

 

I fully agree Cox is looking like another talent outlier, and he is a complete and utter stud from whom I wish to take no credit. But Kyle Dake is as much if not more of an outlier and still has years of upside in skill, physique, conditioning, and strategy. We are lucky to be watching all this go down. This is the type of drama that helps a sport grow or at least sustain interest.

You're right, I did say that. If I were to write it again I'd strike the "and Dake isn't likely to get much better" and replace it with something like "and Dake is not likely to improve as quickly." My thought process was mainly about Cox gaining experience wrestling freestyle and not physical development. I really don't know whether or not Dake adding more muscle mass will help him or not versus someone like Cox but I don't feel strongly either way. In any case, my feeling is he can and should eventually take another crack at Burroughs. 

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I thought the Perry match told the story. Perry was bigger and was able to push Dake around and control the ties. Dake won the match but if Perry is clubbing him what would the top international guys do to him at this weight. That is not to diminish from the fact that he made the finals against an impressive field and came excruciatingly close to making the team. It was absolutely the right decision under the circumstances. But moving up from a weight with a 163 limit to a weight with a 189 pound limit is tremendous. Size matters as much as speed. That means he is competing against opponents cutting from 200+. It would be great if the weights were readjusted to have less of a weight difference (I could see Dake being very competitive at 83kg), but the facts of life. 

I too wish the weights readjusted. I wish it were 82kg (180.5 lb) like it was through 1996. Even through 2013 it was 84kg. It's hard to believe that's it was only in 2014 when they moved the weight up to 86kg. 

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I really don't know whether or not Dake adding more muscle mass will help him or not versus someone like Cox but I don't feel strongly either way.

How can you say success a thing? Size is, after technique, probably the single biggest factor in high level wrestling. Size neutralizes every other factor if there is enough of a gap. JB would lose 100 times out of 100 to a 300 lb wrestler who is no more than above average in skill.

 

Adding even 5 quality pounds of lean mass, let alone 10-15, would make Dake an irrefutably better wrestler and that would help against anybody. Whether it can offset Cox's potential skill progression remains to be seen, but more good size will absolutely help Dake against Cox and anyone else at the weight.

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I too wish the weights readjusted. I wish it were 82kg (180.5 lb) like it was through 1996. Even through 2013 it was 84kg. It's hard to believe that's it was only in 2014 when they moved the weight up to 86kg. 

It is just another area where international wrestling cannot get its act together. In 2012 the weights were 74kg and 84 kg (163 and 185). There was no logical reason to go from a 22 pound gap to a 26 pound gap. By moving to 86kg this limited the range of choices the athletes have and allows 200+ pound athletes to make the cut to 189. But the 2012 weights weren't that smart to begin with. I thought the weights up to the 1996 Olympics (68kg, 74 kg, 82kg, 90kg) were much better. It gave more opportunities to the athletes. 

Edited by straggler

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How can you say success a thing? Size is, after technique, probably the single biggest factor in high level wrestling. Size neutralizes every other factor if there is enough of a gap. JB would lose 100 times out of 100 to a 300 lb wrestler who is no more than above average in skill.

 

Adding even 5 quality pounds of lean mass, let alone 10-15, would make Dake an irrefutably better wrestler and that would help against anybody. Whether it can offset Cox's potential skill progression remains to be seen, but more good size will absolutely help Dake against Cox and anyone else at the weight.

Bigger is not always better.  This is wrestling  -- everything gained results in something lost.  In addition to having diminished effective cardio(much bigger size, same heart and lungs), he has clearly lost quickness and maneuverability.  Go back to Cox's takedown in the first round of the last match. In that situation, Dake squares up 100 times out of 100 against any opponent @74.  

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I too wish the weights readjusted. I wish it were 82kg (180.5 lb) like it was through 1996. Even through 2013 it was 84kg. It's hard to believe that's it was only in 2014 when they moved the weight up to 86kg. 

Unfortunately, this is a double edged sword.

 

The Olympics have only given us 18 gold medals for which to compete.  This was reduced from the original 20 golds to 16 then taken back up to 18 when we added Womens.  We were allowed to divide those as we wanted initially, 7 for FS, 7 for GR and 4 for Women.  As things evolved, we were booted from the games.  One of the conditions of getting back in the games was equal and fair treatment for women.  So, take the 18 medals and divide by the three styles, 6 for FS, 6 for GR and 6 for Womens.

 

Now, there are many out there who will say screw the IOC and let's get back to 10 weight classes.  That sounds great in theory.  What they don't understand is that the National Governing Bodies of many of the countries fund wrestling because it is an Olympic sport.  If it ceases to become an Olympic sport, it will lose its funding from the USOC, they will no longer have access to the Olympic Training Center, its staff, trainers, facilities, educational benefits and many other benefits afforded to our Olympic Sports athletes.  There are also many colleges that fund wrestling because it is an Olympic sport.  There is no telling it they will continue to be funded if the are no longer an Olympic sport.

 

So, here we are with 6 weight classes per style.  There is nothing we can do to force the hand of the IOC to add more weight classes.  Will they ever give us more?  We can never know but that is what we are hoping for in the future.

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How can you say success a thing? Size is, after technique, probably the single biggest factor in high level wrestling. Size neutralizes every other factor if there is enough of a gap. JB would lose 100 times out of 100 to a 300 lb wrestler who is no more than above average in skill.

 

Adding even 5 quality pounds of lean mass, let alone 10-15, would make Dake an irrefutably better wrestler and that would help against anybody. Whether it can offset Cox's potential skill progression remains to be seen, but more good size will absolutely help Dake against Cox and anyone else at the weight.

Even if it's absolutely true that if he adds more muscle mass he will be an irrefutably better wrestler, it that doesn't mean it will help him versus Cox, which is what I said. The gap that Cox opens up may in the end be too wide if Cox improves at a more rapid rate than Dake. That said, I can see lots of ways you might disagree with me including if you think the value of five more pounds is considerable or if Dake's rate of improvement ends up being greater than Cox's and so on.

 

I doubt, though, that what I am saying falls into the category of being on its face wrong.

 

Another point is that Dake already packed on quite a few pounds of lean muscle mass. Surely the value of the next five pounds will not be the same as the value of the first five pounds. Maybe he has a lot more room to usefully add more muscle but clearly at some point added muscle will not be more valuable.  

 

But, to be clear, I don't have a strong feeling one way or the other about the precise value to Dake's wrestling bottom line of adding five pounds from here. I do agree it is likely to help him, so again, it's only a question of whether it makes enough of a difference. On the other hand, I would guess that if Cox pursues freestyle full on, it's hard to imagine that Dake can continue to improve as rapidly as Cox does in freestyle. Dake may improve, he may improve a great deal, but Cox can gain simply because he hasn't been wrestling freestyle at this level very much. 

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