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newyorkwrestler

dake is a BEAST

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Unfortunately, this is a double edged sword.

 

The Olympics have only given us 18 gold medals for which to compete.  This was reduced from the original 20 golds to 16 then taken back up to 18 when we added Womens.  We were allowed to divide those as we wanted initially, 7 for FS, 7 for GR and 4 for Women.  As things evolved, we were booted from the games.  One of the conditions of getting back in the games was equal and fair treatment for women.  So, take the 18 medals and divide by the three styles, 6 for FS, 6 for GR and 6 for Womens.

 

Now, there are many out there who will say screw the IOC and let's get back to 10 weight classes.  That sounds great in theory.  What they don't understand is that the National Governing Bodies of many of the countries fund wrestling because it is an Olympic sport.  If it ceases to become an Olympic sport, it will lose its funding from the USOC, they will no longer have access to the Olympic Training Center, its staff, trainers, facilities, educational benefits and many other benefits afforded to our Olympic Sports athletes.  There are also many colleges that fund wrestling because it is an Olympic sport.  There is no telling it they will continue to be funded if the are no longer an Olympic sport.

 

So, here we are with 6 weight classes per style.  There is nothing we can do to force the hand of the IOC to add more weight classes.  Will they ever give us more?  We can never know but that is what we are hoping for in the future.

Do you know why the IOC won't let there be 8/8/8? These days with so much streaming of events, it would seems like a low cost to just allow 24 weight classes in all. Is it cost? 

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BTF, what you are saying is in its face wrong. Every wrestler improves if all he does is add more muscle mass, unless he is already maxed out for the weight (e.g. Cox), which would then require cutting too hard, or the weight added is pure fat.

 

It is a simple biomechanical fact that a heavier wrestler, even if all other facts such as skill, mind, and conditioning are held constant, becomes more effective because strength and power are almost perfectly correlated (at the individual level; there are variances individual to individual). Also, a heavier wrestler is more difficult to move around for the opposing wrestler. SIZE MATTERS. A bigger Dake is a better Dake, which will help him against Cox or anyone.

 

As I said, whether that extra size can offest whatever skill progression Cox will undergo (unknowable at this point, though it is obvious he will likely improve quite a bit) remains to be seen. But more size will always help relative to the starting point of today. Maybe Cox just improves more overall and Dake never beats him, but even in that scenario, more size will help Dake and never hurt given how small he is today.

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Another point is that Dake already packed on quite a few pounds of lean muscle mass. Surely the value of the next five pounds will not be the same as the value of the first five pounds. Maybe he has a lot more room to usefully add more muscle but clearly at some point added muscle will not be more valuable.  

 

 

That may be true if he currently weighed about 200 lbs, but he is 15 lbs shy of that and has plenty of biomechanical advantage to be gained with more muscle (i.e. more horsepower for his 5'9"ish frame).

 

I don't mean to nerd out on you with this, but there are various models that scientists and human physiology researchers use to estimate genetic drug-free muscular limit in athletes (Berkham, FFMI, etc.). The most universally recognized is the FFMI (fat-free mass index) model, which can be summarized through the formula: FFMI = fat-free mass in kg X (metric heigtht)^2. It is believed that an FFMI of 25 is the genetic limit for the average male.

 

A study of bodyfat for Olympic and world competitors in freestyle wrestling was published on this forum about a year or two ago. The average bodyfat was between 8-10%, excluding heavyweights. Dake currently looks to be about 12% to me, given his rapid weight gain. Here is a visual guide for bodyfat levels (most people dramatically underestimate their true bodyfat composition. Anyting under 10% is very lean with clearly visible abs): http://www.ruled.me/visually-estimate-body-fat-percentage/

 

Per the FFMI model, the average 5'9" man can get to approximately 184 lbs of fully hydrated bodyweight at 5% bodyfat, which is roughly where Dake is today but at more than double that bodyfat. This means Dake could add another close to 10 lbs of pure muscle mass. Since it is nearly impossible to add only muscle without gaining some fat with it (if he only gained muslce, his bodyfat % would go down, since the denominator, total mass, would go up while the numerator, bodyfat mass, would stay constant), any muscular gain would be accompanied by some fat gain, which means his total bodyweight would increase beyond the FFMI "max" at 5% boyfat. Dake could gain 13-15 lbs of total weight, mostly muscle, and keep his current bodyfat unchanged or even become slightly leaner.

 

Again, Dakes' teammate Gabe Dean is an example of somoene who currently looks like what Dake could look like. It can be argued that he is more genetically mesomorphic and has a higher genetic limit, but he is cutting quite hard to get to 184 while Dake is at that weight by stuffing his face. Also, Dake does not look to me to be genetically average by any stretch of the imagination.

 

The value of any extra muscle Dake will gain here on out is immense. If you look at strength and power sports, whether it be powerilfting, Olympic lifting, or football (closer to wrestling in its start-stop nature than most strength/power sports), Dake is but a small elite-level competitor for his height at those sports. He would be a tiny cornerback in the NFL. for example. His frame and explosive style will benefit greatly from any added weight up to probably 200 lbs or so of total weight (or around 185-190 lbs of weight at an absolutely shredded 5% bodyfat).

Edited by wrestlingnerd

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Bigger is not always better.  This is wrestling  -- everything gained results in something lost.  In addition to having diminished effective cardio(much bigger size, same heart and lungs), he has clearly lost quickness and maneuverability.  Go back to Cox's takedown in the first round of the last match. In that situation, Dake squares up 100 times out of 100 against any opponent @74.  

 

Dake has never had a cardio problem. More size may be tougher on the lungs, but he is so deficient in size at 87 kg that it is obvious more size will help, not hurt, even if there is a slight hit to cardio (which I don't believe there will be up until a FFMI of 23-25: refer to my post above for FFMI).

 

Cox's TD in the first round of the match had nothing to do with Dake not being quick enough to square up and everything to do with Cox being Goliath to Dake's David. That move was one of the most obvious examples of the size disadvantage in the entire tournament.

 

I don't think Dake has lost any quickness or maneuverability. Watch the US Open final when David Taylor had Dake 99.99% taken down and he pulled a Houdini defensive move to get out unscathed. That is about as athletic a move as you'll see in high level wrestling. He also hit a few highlight reel type shots that demonstrate his quickness and maneuverability throughout the tournament.

 

Even if he loses a little quickness, what he will gain in size and strength more than offsets that considering how large his opponents are relative to him. The heavier you get, the less quick and maneuverable you have to be to be equally effective.

 

Again, we are not talking about a guy who is a muscular freak show and cannot gain more "good weight." Dake is muscular and athletic-looking, but he would currently be a small pro athlete even for his height in the NFL, in powerlifting or Olympic lifting, or any other major strength/power sport, many which require extreme quickness and maneuverability.

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Dake has never had a cardio problem. More size may be tougher on the lungs, but he is so deficient in size at 87 kg that it is obvious more size will help, not hurt, even if there is a slight hit to cardio (which I don't believe there will be up until a FFMI of 23-25: refer to my post above for FFMI).

 

Cox's TD in the first round of the match had nothing to do with Dake not being quick enough to square up and everything to do with Cox being Goliath to Dake's David. That move was one of the most obvious examples of the size disadvantage in the entire tournament.

 

I don't think Dake has lost any quickness or maneuverability. Watch the US Open final when David Taylor had Dake 99.99% taken down and he pulled a Houdini defensive move to get out unscathed. That is about as athletic a move as you'll see in high level wrestling. He also hit a few highlight reel type shots that demonstrate his quickness and maneuverability throughout the tournament.

 

Even if he loses a little quickness, what he will gain in size and strength more than offsets that considering how large his opponents are relative to him. The heavier you get, the less quick and maneuverable you have to be to be equally effective.

 

Again, we are not talking about a guy who is a muscular freak show and cannot gain more "good weight." Dake is muscular and athletic-looking, but he would currently be a small pro athlete even for his height in the NFL, in powerlifting or Olympic lifting, or any other major strength/power sport, many which require extreme quickness and maneuverability.

More size may indeed help him wrestle at 86, but being at 86 will make him a less effective wrestler. In the sequence I pointed out, his body clearly wouldn't do what he wanted it to do.  This is a square peg in a round hole.

He should wrestle where he is the best and that is clearly not 86.  JB will be 32 in 2020.  The field is going to catch him at some point, the only question is who will be leading the field.

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More size may indeed help him wrestle at 86, but being at 86 will make him a less effective wrestler. In the sequence I pointed out, his body clearly wouldn't do what he wanted it to do. This is a square peg in a round hole.

He should wrestle where he is the best and that is clearly not 86. JB will be 32 in 2020. The field is going to catch him at some point, the only question is who will be leading the field.

I suppose we see what we want to see. That sequence was not as you described to me, but now we're just interpreting so I'll agree to disagree.

 

Dake may be best suited for 74 but if he has a better chance of making the team today at 86, he should stay at 86. When there is an opportunity to square up against JB without a physical disadvantage, Dake is on record for stating he will probably take another crack at solving him. Until then, he is absolutely right to try to make a team for career reasons. He came damn close with six months of prep time will giving up 20-25 lbs. to me, that is proof he made the right call and will get better as the very obvious size disadvantage starts to go away with more time.

Edited by wrestlingnerd

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Dake has never had a cardio problem. More size may be tougher on the lungs, but he is so deficient in size at 87 kg that it is obvious more size will help, not hurt, even if there is a slight hit to cardio (which I don't believe there will be up until a FFMI of 23-25: refer to my post above for FFMI).

 

Cox's TD in the first round of the match had nothing to do with Dake not being quick enough to square up and everything to do with Cox being Goliath to Dake's David. That move was one of the most obvious examples of the size disadvantage in the entire tournament.

 

I don't think Dake has lost any quickness or maneuverability. Watch the US Open final when David Taylor had Dake 99.99% taken down and he pulled a Houdini defensive move to get out unscathed. That is about as athletic a move as you'll see in high level wrestling. He also hit a few highlight reel type shots that demonstrate his quickness and maneuverability throughout the tournament.

 

Even if he loses a little quickness, what he will gain in size and strength more than offsets that considering how large his opponents are relative to him. The heavier you get, the less quick and maneuverable you have to be to be equally effective.

 

Again, we are not talking about a guy who is a muscular freak show and cannot gain more "good weight." Dake is muscular and athletic-looking, but he would currently be a small pro athlete even for his height in the NFL, in powerlifting or Olympic lifting, or any other major strength/power sport, many which require extreme quickness and maneuverability.

 

 

You must have missed the US open.  Dake was sucking wind like a hooker, at the local truck stop, on 2 for 1 Tuesday..   

 

More muscle, particularly as much being speculated Dake needs to pack on, impacts speed, flexibility, and conditioning.   Those are 3 HUGE factors, which make Dake so successful.   Lets also consider, does the guy really want to look like a tree stump?   

 

Dake doesn't need to get any bigger, he needs to improve his technique.   Cox isn't the only one he needs to worry about, Richard Perry down right bullied him, until he ran out of gas, and David Taylor, (who has added good weight for his frame and seems to have healed from the back injury) made it razor thin with Dake this time out.   Taylor will only improve because he's growing into the weight naturally.  

 

It's back down to 74 kg and probably 70 kg more realistically, for Dake.    This was his 1 chance to get it done at 86 kg and he just was too small.   Next time around it will be worse.  

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Per the FFMI model, the average 5'9" man can get to approximately 184 lbs of fully hydrated bodyweight at 5% bodyfat, which is roughly where Dake is today but at more than double that bodyfat. This means Dake could add another close to 10 lbs of pure muscle mass. Since it is nearly impossible to add only muscle without gaining some fat with it (if he only gained muslce, his bodyfat % would go down, since the denominator, total mass, would go up while the numerator, bodyfat mass, would stay constant), any muscular gain would be accompanied by some fat gain, which means his total bodyweight would increase beyond the FFMI "max" at 5% boyfat. Dake could gain 13-15 lbs of total weight, mostly muscle, and keep his current bodyfat unchanged or even become slightly leaner.

 

So Dake's absolute max lean weight (without the use of some artificial substances) would be ~200 lbs? And that is with eating like Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson (http://www.muscleandfitness.com/nutrition/meal-plans/smell-what-rock-cooking), lifting constantly, and fully hydrated. When he needs to "cut" down to 189 all he will have to do is eat 2000 calories a day and take a couple days off at the gym. Sure, it will help him to get up there, but he will never have the size of the guys that are walking around at 215+ lbs. If size is as important as you are saying it is, he will always be disadvantaged at 86 kilos.

 

Personally, I was incredibly impressed by his performance despite a clear size disparity. But it is hard to see 86 being a good weight for him.

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When he needs to "cut" down to 189 all he will have to do is eat 2000 calories a day and take a couple days off at the gym. Sure, it will help him to get up there, but he will never have the size of the guys that are walking around at 215+ lbs. If size is as important as you are saying it is, he will always be disadvantaged at 86 kilos.

 

Personally, I was incredibly impressed by his performance despite a clear size disparity. But it is hard to see 86 being a good weight for him.

Exactly right. He will always be size-disadvantaged at 86. However, in the future, the gigantic disadvantage of today will diminish significantly to what I believe will be a manageable disadvantage of giving up not 20-25 lbs but only 10'ish.

 

I too was incredibly impressed by what he did, as you were. 86 is clearly not his personal ideal weight but it is the weight that's right at the moment for his career.

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You must have missed the US open. Dake was sucking wind like a hooker, at the local truck stop, on 2 for 1 Tuesday..

 

More muscle, particularly as much being speculated Dake needs to pack on, impacts speed, flexibility, and conditioning. Those are 3 HUGE factors, which make Dake so successful. Lets also consider, does the guy really want to look like a tree stump?

 

Dake doesn't need to get any bigger, he needs to improve his technique. Cox isn't the only one he needs to worry about, Richard Perry down right bullied him, until he ran out of gas, and David Taylor, (who has added good weight for his frame and seems to have healed from the back injury) made it razor thin with Dake this time out. Taylor will only improve because he's growing into the weight naturally.

 

It's back down to 74 kg and probably 70 kg more realistically, for Dake. This was his 1 chance to get it done at 86 kg and he just was too small. Next time around it will be worse.

Must have watched a different open. Dake handily won the one I watched.

 

Perry did bully him... And still lost by a bunch of points. Next time it won't be as close with more size.

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Must have watched a different open. Dake handily won the one I watched.

 

Perry did bully him... And still lost by a bunch of points. Next time it won't be as close with more size.

 

 

He handily won, no question there, He won, while huffing and puffing, through the tournament.   His winning wasn't in question, it is his conditioning (or lack there of) that raised brows, throughout the arena.  

 

I actually really like Perry and I hope he continues to improve and improves the gas tank.   He's already impressed internationally, and we can't ever have too many      threats at 86 kg.   

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