Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
newyorkwrestler

John Smith said we need to change folk rules

Recommended Posts

Leg lace is a huge form of control.

Freestyle is better in stand up position where you can score a lot of throws banned in folk style.

I absolutely agree it is a huge form of control. I just meant the folkstyle definition of the word control, I'm not sure how to explain the differences between the two styles without using that word.. For example if you get in a scramble and roll the guy through, you won't score points until you establish "control". Or if you are on bottom and trying to reverse your opponent, even if he is on his back you won't start getting back points until you've established control.

 

In folkstyle you get back points for "controlling" your opponent in a pinning combination, exposing his back and not allowing him to get off.  Obviously if you are in JB's leg lace, he is controlling you!  But I only meant the way the term is often used to differentiate Folkstyle vs Freestyle

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When was this in correlation to John Smith saying he didn't know why the refs were blowing the whistle & stopping the match so often and when he was saying he didn't get why wrestler X was being called for passivity & being put on the shot clock?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bring back the 15 point tech and hand to hand exposures. Also, learn to defend a lace.

At least have the point amount for a tech fall be the same in each style.

 

 

In regards to back exposure - it is not easy to explain to people unfamiliar (or even familiar) with the sport why the take down Kennedy got on Stieber* is worth 4 points, the same as takedown  in which there is actually danger of being pinned - take down that drives or throws an opponent to the mat so that the opponent's back actually hits the mat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm agree about the impact of the change. Folk style and Freestyle are two different beasts. The first is a ground oriented style, the second is stand up oriented.

At international level UWW has also a ground style with submissions so I think that the freestyle's positioning is correct. Now freestyle has a very interesting ruleset. But I prefer 1 point turn!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We are about to lose a whole generation of international wrestling knowledge. It is already very obvious we don't have nearly the level of technique of wrestlers from the 80s and 90s. If we don't reverse this trend we won't be competitive in another 10 years.

If this is the case, what accounts for the loss of technique?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If this is the case, what accounts for the loss of technique?

Perhaps some of the loss of technique is the breakup of the Soviet Union.  Now instead of one extreme wrestler, there are numerous.  Just a guess really.

 

mspart

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A switch to freestyle would make wrestling like men's collegiate gymnastics. Maybe 20-25 programs with the NCAA finals being relegated to 2AM replays. Folk style is so engrained that a switch collegiately would mean that most former wrestlers would no longer recognize the sport and support would dwindle. We will continue to win our fair share of medals, and we are loaded with future freestyle talent coming down the pike. I just don't get the obsession with worrying about beating Iran, Russia & Mongolia. We will still win our fair share, and we currently have 2 favorites to win gold (which is 33%). Jesus, there are only 6 weight classes now and everybody wants to follow the International Leadership that got us to this point. Talk about making your own noose.

 

Freestyle is a nice change of pace, and it is fun to watch during the summer months. A switch to this style would be the end of scholastic and collegiate wrestling as we know it. I for one would no longer coach, or watch the sport. You may say "good riddance", but I would be the norm...not the exception. Freestyle is barely surviving as an Olympic sport, yet we have some who want to make it our only style? How ludicrous is that? Refs blowing the whistle every 5 seconds and being a focal point in the outcome of a match. Guts or laces that end a match in 20 seconds. Exposure rules that penalize an aggressor. Can you imagine dual meets? To me, it's like the people who want America to become a European Socialist country. It sounds great in theory...

 

Folk style certainly can benefit from some freestyle tweaks. Push outs, limited riding by top man etc...I actually think shortening the match would create more action as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A switch to freestyle would make wrestling like men's collegiate gymnastics. Maybe 20-25 programs with the NCAA finals being relegated to 2AM replays. Folk style is so engrained that a switch collegiately would mean that most former wrestlers would no longer recognize the sport and support would dwindle. We will continue to win our fair share of medals, and we are loaded with future freestyle talent coming down the pike. I just don't get the obsession with worrying about beating Iran, Russia & Mongolia. We will still win our fair share, and we currently have 2 favorites to win gold (which is 33%). Jesus, there are only 6 weight classes now and everybody wants to follow the International Leadership that got us to this point. Talk about making your own noose.

 

Freestyle is a nice change of pace, and it is fun to watch during the summer months. A switch to this style would be the end of scholastic and collegiate wrestling as we know it. I for one would no longer coach, or watch the sport. You may say "good riddance", but I would be the norm...not the exception. Freestyle is barely surviving as an Olympic sport, yet we have some who want to make it our only style? How ludicrous is that? Refs blowing the whistle every 5 seconds and being a focal point in the outcome of a match. Guts or laces that end a match in 20 seconds. Exposure rules that penalize an aggressor. Can you imagine dual meets? To me, it's like the people who want America to become a European Socialist country. It sounds great in theory...

 

Folk style certainly can benefit from some freestyle tweaks. Push outs, limited riding by top man etc...I actually think shortening the match would create more action as well.

 

Agree 100%. The IOC will probably cut bait on wrestling at the next chance and we want to change over to those rules?  I like both styles but I think folk is the way to go at youth and collegiate levels for now while incorporating a few modern rule changes.  Granted I don't get to watch much free outside of Olympic cycles these days but the rule changes and figure skating like judging at times I don't know.  I'm well versed in wrestling and I was struggling watching the trials at times this past weekend with the rules and calls being made. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

its not that big of a difference. mainly the back exposure rules and lack of emphasis on mat wrestling. you could phase it in and everyone would be fine.

 

I understand coaches not relishing the idea of having to learn new techniques, and I do sympathize, but maybe folkstyle will survive the switch. have big yearly folkstyle festivals and what not. it would no longer have to comply with the NCAA or Title IX. may be a big positive.

 

and if they NCAA adopted freestyle SCORING rules they wouldn't have to adopt everything else the UWW does. it wouldn't have to switch to a ball grab if the UWW went back to that. It can still have full wrestlebacks and seeds and everything. 

 

but i get it, coaches have their careers tied to folkstyle. a change to freestyle would make life more difficult for them. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A switch to freestyle would make wrestling like men's collegiate gymnastics. Maybe 20-25 programs with the NCAA finals being relegated to 2AM replays. Folk style is so engrained that a switch collegiately would mean that most former wrestlers would no longer recognize the sport and support would dwindle. We will continue to win our fair share of medals, and we are loaded with future freestyle talent coming down the pike. I just don't get the obsession with worrying about beating Iran, Russia & Mongolia. We will still win our fair share, and we currently have 2 favorites to win gold (which is 33%). Jesus, there are only 6 weight classes now and everybody wants to follow the International Leadership that got us to this point. Talk about making your own noose.

Freestyle is a nice change of pace, and it is fun to watch during the summer months. A switch to this style would be the end of scholastic and collegiate wrestling as we know it. I for one would no longer coach, or watch the sport. You may say "good riddance", but I would be the norm...not the exception. Freestyle is barely surviving as an Olympic sport, yet we have some who want to make it our only style? How ludicrous is that? Refs blowing the whistle every 5 seconds and being a focal point in the outcome of a match. Guts or laces that end a match in 20 seconds. Exposure rules that penalize an aggressor. Can you imagine dual meets? To me, it's like the people who want America to become a European Socialist country. It sounds great in theory...

Folk style certainly can benefit from some freestyle tweaks. Push outs, limited riding by top man etc...I actually think shortening the match would create more action as well.

Totally agree. I could get behind the pushout rule but thats about it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Folkstyle is horrendously boring now. Tons of stalling, no action, no throws. outsiders who watch tend to enjoy the freestyle matches more and they loathe watching may wrestling. Yes at first we would lose an audience with people like the above posters who are misguided but in the long run we would gain a larger audience. Freestyle is the far more enjoyable and marketable product. We should over time incorporate it into folkstyle. A gradual switch is the best way to go over a ten year period. I think this way people could adjust and would come to terms with it, and eventually come to prefer it. Nobody likes change at first and I remember when I first started watching and doing freestyle I thought it was weird but after some time I realized it was truly superior in almost every aspect.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Granted I don't get to watch much free outside of Olympic cycles these days but the rule changes and figure skating like judging at times I don't know.  I'm well versed in wrestling and I was struggling watching the trials at times this past weekend with the rules and calls being made. 

 

"I don't watch freestyle; I don't understand the rules." Let's listen to this guy. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A switch to freestyle would make wrestling like men's collegiate gymnastics. Maybe 20-25 programs with the NCAA finals being relegated to 2AM replays. Folk style is so engrained that a switch collegiately would mean that most former wrestlers would no longer recognize the sport and support would dwindle. We will continue to win our fair share of medals, and we are loaded with future freestyle talent coming down the pike. I just don't get the obsession with worrying about beating Iran, Russia & Mongolia. We will still win our fair share, and we currently have 2 favorites to win gold (which is 33%). Jesus, there are only 6 weight classes now and everybody wants to follow the International Leadership that got us to this point. Talk about making your own noose.

 

Freestyle is a nice change of pace, and it is fun to watch during the summer months. A switch to this style would be the end of scholastic and collegiate wrestling as we know it. I for one would no longer coach, or watch the sport. You may say "good riddance", but I would be the norm...not the exception. Freestyle is barely surviving as an Olympic sport, yet we have some who want to make it our only style? How ludicrous is that? Refs blowing the whistle every 5 seconds and being a focal point in the outcome of a match. Guts or laces that end a match in 20 seconds. Exposure rules that penalize an aggressor. Can you imagine dual meets? To me, it's like the people who want America to become a European Socialist country. It sounds great in theory...

 

Folk style certainly can benefit from some freestyle tweaks. Push outs, limited riding by top man etc...I actually think shortening the match would create more action as well.

 

I can't agree. And it's not freestyle that's in trouble, it's greco.

 

Also, european socialism doesn't mean what most americans think it means. I've had quite a few discussions about this with my american friends, and most of them have no clue what european "socialism" is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can't agree. And it's not freestyle that's in trouble, it's greco.

 

Also, european socialism doesn't mean what most americans think it means. I've had quite a few discussions about this with my american friends, and most of them have no clue what european "socialism" is.

European socialism freestyle is a wrestling style where you do not enter a tournament and still win via criteria.

 

This is different than American socialism folkstyle which is currently defined as wrestlers being promised tons of free stuff provided the ref is named Bernie and you join his team.

 

And far different than North Korean socialism Greco where you can only use body parts as decreed by kim jong un who wins all the matches and indiscriminately kills refs and wrestlers in order to purify the sport.

 

Which is the best form is determined from each according to their needs and from each according to their abilities.

Edited by swoopdown

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can't agree. And it's not freestyle that's in trouble, it's greco.

 

More i watch greco the more I like it. I think forced par terre has been great for greco. guys that take risks like robby are jsut as exciting to watch as the free guys for the most part. i used to want to get rid of greco and use the weights for mens free but i no longer support this. I hope greco continues to grow. like with freestyle i think its weird at first when you are so used to folk, but after you learn to understand it and maybe do it for fun in practice you realize how difficult the sport is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

More i watch greco the more I like it. I think forced par terre has been great for greco. guys that take risks like robby are jsut as exciting to watch as the free guys for the most part. i used to want to get rid of greco and use the weights for mens free but i no longer support this. I hope greco continues to grow. like with freestyle i think its weird at first when you are so used to folk, but after you learn to understand it and maybe do it for fun in practice you realize how difficult the sport is.

 

If you enjoy forced par terre, enjoy it until this Olympic Games, because after it this rule will no longer exist.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jordan Burroughs went to be 4x world champion few months after winning his NCAAs. So, I'm not sure why it has to be changed to be closer to Freestyle. Heck, Kyle Snyder and John Smith went to be world champion while in college. Kyle was second in the NCAAs then folkstyle must be tougher than Freestyle??!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jordan Burroughs went to be 4x world champion few months after winning his NCAAs. So, I'm not sure why it has to be changed to be closer to Freestyle. Heck, Kyle Snyder and John Smith went to be world champion while in college. Kyle was second in the NCAAs then folkstyle must be tougher than Freestyle??!

Since John Snith, JB, and Snyder did it, everyone should be able to do it, right?

 

Taking the three biggest outliers in the history of USA wrestling to make a case for an entire nation is like saying Einstein once failed math during elementary school so math is useless.

 

If you want to take stock of those three guys, what do you make of the fact that the biggest outlier of all, John Smith, literally said switching to freestyle would help us out two whole days ago?? If only JB had also said something similar... Wait, he actually did and is in favor of switching to FS completely for NCAAs!!

 

And if actions speak louder than words, Snyder, the third mega outlier, has spoken loudest by refusing to even practice one minute in folkstyle while competing for tOSU this year.

 

I rest my (and the outliers') case.

Edited by wrestlingnerd

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Since John Snith, JB, and Snyder did it, everyone should be able to do it, right?

 

Taking the three biggest outliers in the history of USA wrestling to make a case for an entire nation is like saying Einstein once failed math during elementary school so math is useless.

 

If you want to take stock of those three guys, what do you make of the fact that the biggest outlier of all, John Smith, literally said switching to freestyle would help us out two whole days ago?? If only JB had also said something similar... Wait, he actually did and is in favor of switching to FS completely for NCAAs!!

 

And if actions speak louder than words, Snyder, the third mega outlier, has spoken loudest by refusing to even practice one minute in folkstyle while competing for tOSU this year.

 

I rest my (and the outliers') case.

 

Have Snyder really done that? Wow.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

More i watch greco the more I like it. I think forced par terre has been great for greco. guys that take risks like robby are jsut as exciting to watch as the free guys for the most part. i used to want to get rid of greco and use the weights for mens free but i no longer support this. I hope greco continues to grow. like with freestyle i think its weird at first when you are so used to folk, but after you learn to understand it and maybe do it for fun in practice you realize how difficult the sport is.

 

Grecos' problem is that very few throws happen at high level. And for a casual viewer this makes the sport boring. I competed mainly in greco, and even I know that most moves are gut wrenches. Greco just isn't as exciting to view as freestyle.

 

UWW bringing back the possibility of slips has helped to sport a bit, but then again, the slips should not have been taken away in the first place. 

 

The stupidity of greco is that the ONE move that no casual viewer undertands (gut wrenches) is the most likely move to happen on the mat.

 

Then there's the new rule that greco wrestlers have to defend on the mat with muscle power only. Why? No movement, no opening grips. Ok, more gut wrenches! Great!! More broken shoulders! More boring moves! Yay! \o/ 

 

The sport really doesn't show itself very well in tournaments. It seems that greco wrestlers know three moves: a gut wrench, a suplae and possibly a karelin lift. That's it.

 

UWW should take a good look at greco rules and think outside the box. Allow more moves, minimalize points for basic gut wrenches etc... Something.

Edited by Don Mog

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First problem : UWW has 2 Olympic wrestling styles with identical uniform! So there is a lot of confusion for new spectators.

 

Another point (I'm talking about Greco) is the lack of throws at high level. Foot sweep and trips after 1,5 minutes without points could be interesting.

Edited by WreslingSuperior

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...