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John Smith said we need to change folk rules

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Wha are you basing this on, that people watch because it is a college sport first and style is secondary?  What about all the wrestlers that competed in FS & GR, why aren't they tuning in? Or the people that didn't wrestle in college, why do any of them watch NCAA wrestling?

What are you basing this on? 

his point is that if wrestling was not an NCAA sport and it was only done through clubs, it might be payed attention too. The college system adds a ton. Its like our professional league in this country. Now imagine if college is freestyle and everyone understands it, moving your focus into the international scene would be much easier of a transition. for new freestyle fans it can take a little while to get a grip on the rules and intricacies, and sadly many of them decide to not pay attention to it instead.

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uniform change is the first to step in marketability. when we have an attractive uniform more people will watch. This is prob more important than style. Headgear needs to go too, it looks weird. sports are about aesthetics now, just look at how many people buy hockey, nfl, and FIFA uniforms because they look cool. next i think comes style, free creates much more action, if you show people crazy scrambles or exciting throws that have don't know a thing about wrestling they tend to think its exciting and are intrigued, but then when you show them a full college match they say its boring and lose interest. freestyle will vastly help fix this problem. i also think the tournament format is the best way to go, it creates more excitement than dual meets by far. we should also not discourage gambling, any sport with a lot of gambling grows in popularity. I think UWW attemps at creating a grand prix system is brilliant. over time i hope this means huge cash prizes. we cant have the centerpeice of our sport take place every 4 years, or only have 1 important vent per year in the WC. some people think creating clubs and following a soccer model is the best way, but i disagree, i think that only works because soccer is so massively popular. again copying golf and tennis is the best way to go. 

Can say the same about fs & gr, witnessed it this weekend.

 

Headgear isn't going away in folkstyle, at least for scholastic sponsored teams, it is viewed as protective/preventive equipment, can you convince them headgear is not? 

 

Yes, people buy NFL & NHL jerseys, shirts, jackets & hats.  That has been happening for decades, jersey replicas aside they aren't buying the actual competition uniform (well, sane people aren't walking around in shoulder pads and football knickers).

 

Are you for a switch to underarmour style shirts & shorts (NCAA teams can do this already)?   I have no problem in changing up the uniform; UWW was supposedly coming out with new, exciting uniforms but all they did was modify the cut a little and color scheme - pretty much nothing changed. 

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his point is that if wrestling was not an NCAA sport and it was only done through clubs, it might be payed attention too. The college system adds a ton. Its like our professional league in this country. Now imagine if college is freestyle and everyone understands it, moving your focus into the international scene would be much easier of a transition. for new freestyle fans it can take a little while to get a grip on the rules and intricacies, and sadly many of them decide to not pay attention to it instead.

Yes, I'm familiar with the "people only pay attention to folkstyle, they no understand freestyle" line, a favorite of this forum.

Doesn't explain why Americans that actually competed in fs or gr don't tune in to watch either style. 

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I was just thinking of the parallels with lacrosse. good call. 

 

viewership and attendance would be a wash at worst. people who absolutely love watching mat wrestling and can't imagine wrestling without spiral rides and crab rides will be lost. but everyone else who enjoys wrestling will stay, and maybe a few more fans will be picked up along the way. 

 

and then our student athletes will be better prepared to continue their athletic careers upon graduation. it would be a resounding success for everyone. a real win win. 

I disagree that our student athletes will be better prepared to continue their athletic careers upon graduation if we switch to FS.  There are far more wrestlers who continue their career in MMA than on the Olympic ladder, and I don't think FS is any better as a preparation (and maybe worse without the mat wrestling).  What we are talking about is the best 1% of college wrestlers who even try to make an olympic/world team, and the 1% of those 1% who actually make a team and wrestle against other countries. So between 6 and 8 wrestlers a year will have a better chance to win if we switch.  That's 6 out of the thousands of D1-D3 wrestlers currently of Olympic age.  

 

I don't buy for a minute we want to change for the sake of those 6-8 guys.  A good chunk of the wrestling fans on this board won't root for some of those 6-8 guys just because they went to the wrong regional university.  

 

I think people want to change for National pride and so US wrestling can be better regarded.  I think this is a worthy goal, but don't claim the motivation to change is some kind of career preparation for the 6 guys.

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I disagree that our student athletes will be better prepared to continue their athletic careers upon graduation if we switch to FS.  There are far more wrestlers who continue their career in MMA than on the Olympic ladder, and I don't think FS is any better as a preparation (and maybe worse without the mat wrestling).  What we are talking about is the best 1% of college wrestlers who even try to make an olympic/world team, and the 1% of those 1% who actually make a team and wrestle against other countries. 

 

 

Reasons why wrestlers in the USA stop wrestling after college:

 

1. USA does not have wrestling clubs, unlike most european countries, where almost all wrestling happens at clubs. School wrestling is considered a game, where FS and GR are considered a form of combat.

2. MMA is easier than wrestling, especially at older age. The training is easier, and the actual sparring is easier.

3. Most other combat sports (other than wrestling) happen at clubs, so joining is easy.

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I disagree that our student athletes will be better prepared to continue their athletic careers upon graduation if we switch to FS.  There are far more wrestlers who continue their career in MMA than on the Olympic ladder, and I don't think FS is any better as a preparation (and maybe worse without the mat wrestling).  What we are talking about is the best 1% of college wrestlers who even try to make an olympic/world team, and the 1% of those 1% who actually make a team and wrestle against other countries. So between 6 and 8 wrestlers a year will have a better chance to win if we switch.  That's 6 out of the thousands of D1-D3 wrestlers currently of Olympic age.  

 

I don't buy for a minute we want to change for the sake of those 6-8 guys.  A good chunk of the wrestling fans on this board won't root for some of those 6-8 guys just because they went to the wrong regional university.  

 

I think people want to change for National pride and so US wrestling can be better regarded.  I think this is a worthy goal, but don't claim the motivation to change is some kind of career preparation for the 6 guys.

 

Bold - so true.  This weekend as soon as some matches ended, posters were on here complaining.  In general, so many negative comments about USA team members; some should just get it over with and buy a bunch of Russian wrestling gear. 

 

Also switching to freestyle, what about greco roman; if kids are wrestling fs during school athletic seasons, why would they make the attempt to wrestle greco during the off season?  What would compel them to not participate in freestyle?  That will lead to even lower GR participation than we had in the 80s & 90s. 

 

Going by the All-Americans each year, MMA doesn't even get that many top collegiate wrestlers; more quit shortly after starting than those that stick with it for any significant amount of time.

Edited by OBJoeB

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his point is that if wrestling was not an NCAA sport and it was only done through clubs, it might be payed attention too. The college system adds a ton. Its like our professional league in this country. Now imagine if college is freestyle and everyone understands it, moving your focus into the international scene would be much easier of a transition. for new freestyle fans it can take a little while to get a grip on the rules and intricacies, and sadly many of them decide to not pay attention to it instead.

With the constant changes in FS rules you don't have a while. The competitors, coaches, and officials are often at a loss. And sometimes just when they get it, change comes again.

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2014 isn't 2016 Granbytroll.  I understand and even agree with what you say to an extent about the rules in the past but the rules have changed.  

 

 

The 2016 rules are less consistent and harder to understand than the 2014 rules. 

Stalling:

 

giphy.gif

 

Not stalling:

 

giphy.gif

 

Arguing that the NCAA stalling rules make sense now is like arguing that it's okay that your wife beats you because it's usually your fault for leaving dishes in the sink. 

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With the constant changes in FS rules you don't have a while. The competitors, coaches, and officials are often at a loss. And sometimes just when they get it, change comes again.

This is a silly argument. Of course they completely revamped rules because they had to in 2013, and ever since then they have only made minor tweaks each year to better the sport. There may be a few more years of minor changes but it's slowing down because they finally have an Amazing product. it's not going to be overhauled again and any minor rule changes are made very public and everyone has access to them.

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The 2016 rules are less consistent and harder to understand than the 2014 rules. 

Stalling:

 

giphy.gif

 

Not stalling:

 

giphy.gif

 

Arguing that the NCAA stalling rules make sense now is like arguing that it's okay that your wife beats you because it's usually your fault for leaving dishes in the sink. 

 

 

 

That's all well and good but you originally said, "I just can't understand the hate for the pushout. I watched the 2014 NCAA Finals and I would have paid money to see if Howe or Perry could stay in bounds at all. Instead, we get a match of pushing eachother out of bounds repeatedly, with no stall calls and the only offensive maneuver deciding the match. 

 

Folkstyle is boring now because the refs let the wrestler back directly out of bounds. "

 

I agree the rules are inconsistent and at times difficult to understand.  I disagree that wrestlers can push each other out of bounds repeatedly with no intervention by the refs and I still don't think 2014 is evidence of what is going on today regarding this issue.  You are essentially arguing two points.  One I agree with.  The other I do not.  

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I just can't understand the hate for the pushout. I watched the 2014 NCAA Finals and I would have paid money to see if Howe or Perry could stay in bounds at all. Instead, we get a match of pushing eachother out of bounds repeatedly, with no stall calls and the only offensive maneuver deciding the match. 

 

Folkstyle is boring now because the refs let the wrestler back directly out of bounds. 

That sounds like a common freestyle match. 

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That's all well and good but you originally said, "I just can't understand the hate for the pushout. I watched the 2014 NCAA Finals and I would have paid money to see if Howe or Perry could stay in bounds at all. Instead, we get a match of pushing eachother out of bounds repeatedly, with no stall calls and the only offensive maneuver deciding the match. 

 

Folkstyle is boring now because the refs let the wrestler back directly out of bounds. "

 

I agree the rules are inconsistent and at times difficult to understand.  I disagree that wrestlers can push each other out of bounds repeatedly with no intervention by the refs and I still don't think 2014 is evidence of what is going on today regarding this issue.  You are essentially arguing two points.  One I agree with.  The other I do not.  

 

Sorry for being unclear. I just wanted to show the similarities in the amount of pushouts in matches in 2014 and 2016. Even though we have these "new stalling rules" in 2016, wrestlers still back out of bounds with impunity (mostly) just like they did in 2014. The above gifs are from a Flowrestling article about the 2016 Southern Scuffle that show how the ref mostly let brown back out repeatedly and applied the "action/stalling" rules very inconsistently. 

 

I brought up the Howe vs Perry match to show that the collegiate  rules have some problems. You said something like "it's 2016 now, the rules are better than they were in 2014." I showed those clips to argue that the current rules are mostly as bad as they were two years ago. 

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I will say I prefer folk to freestyle as I prefer mat wrestling and going for the pin. The 'stalling on bottom' by locking up just to keep from getting turned - to me looks like stalling. The bottom guy doesn't go for an escape or reversal and the ref quickly puts them back on their feet.

 

On the pushout. If the attacking wrestler lifts and carries the opponent off the mat - WHY does he get a point? I can see if the opponent is being pushed and does not circle around but even then some wrestlers are playing SUMO and just pushing to get the opponent off the mat. Major stupidity to allow that.

 

On rule changes. I see where freestyle has fewer changes than folkstyle as has been pointed out. More familiar to me was FILA and their rule change every 13 minutes - or so it seemed.

 

Then we have the leg laces as Burroughs hit Howe with. What a waste and totally comfusing to many who are not avid fans. Just rolling around and the match is over? No control, no top movement and no going for a pin. Limit it somehow so they guys will wrestle rather than 'roll around' a half dozen times and ending the match.

 

As for who to root for? USA wrestlers no matter what school they came from - even Iowa! ;-)

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I will say I prefer folk to freestyle as I prefer mat wrestling and going for the pin. The 'stalling on bottom' by locking up just to keep from getting turned - to me looks like stalling. The bottom guy doesn't go for an escape or reversal and the ref quickly puts them back on their feet.

 

On the pushout. If the attacking wrestler lifts and carries the opponent off the mat - WHY does he get a point? I can see if the opponent is being pushed and does not circle around but even then some wrestlers are playing SUMO and just pushing to get the opponent off the mat. Major stupidity to allow that.

 

On rule changes. I see where freestyle has fewer changes than folkstyle as has been pointed out. More familiar to me was FILA and their rule change every 13 minutes - or so it seemed.

 

Then we have the leg laces as Burroughs hit Howe with. What a waste and totally comfusing to many who are not avid fans. Just rolling around and the match is over? No control, no top movement and no going for a pin. Limit it somehow so they guys will wrestle rather than 'roll around' a half dozen times and ending the match.

 

As for who to root for? USA wrestlers no matter what school they came from - even Iowa! ;-)

 

Because it appears to be stalling to you doesn't make it stalling. There's more than one way to skin a cat, so to speak, and there's more than one way to keep from being turned.

 

There's nothing remotely sumo about scoring on a push out. Pushing, as you're making it seem, doesn't earn you points and is prohibited by the rule set. However, wrestling action does. Also, for the defensive guy, sometimes it's easier to give up the one point for leaving the wrestling area, than to defend and possibly give up two or four. That's just strategy.

 

You answered your own statement one sentence before your critique.

 

Have you ever locked up a leg lace or had one locked up on you? If so, at what point was there no control? And the guy with the lace is technically the guy on top. I hope you wouldn't argue that a leg lace is any less exciting or demanding than watching minute upon minute of collegiate American folk wrestlers breaking a their opponents flat with no real desire to turn them, just so they may earn an extra point for having never exposed their backs to the mat. Maybe some guys just aren't pinners. Is that a bad thing? Why not play to your strengths that you've been developing? Again, there more than one way to...

 

It's fine if you don't like the international styles. However, let's not make effort to perpetuate ignorant perceptions of Freestyle with no real reasoning why American Folk is superior other than you just prefer it more.

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