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Off all the great stories this weekend, got to give props to Dake

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I was not surprised by Dake or Taylor being at the weight or looking comfortable considering they planned for it long before the event. They each beat some quality opponents with a lot of accomplishments at the weight class (Reader, Perry, Ruth, Caldwell, Gavin, etc) five months ago to both reach the finals at the Senior Nationals which earned them their #2 and #3 seeds at the OTT. They wouldn't have been seeded so highly without having already proven themselves at the weight.

 

I don't really understand why Dake is getting congratulated now (especially on the college forum). He and Taylor both moved up a while ago and have settled into the weight. This is Dake's third competition at the weight, including going to Russian to compete. Taylor even placed at the Golgen Grand Prix in Baku at 86KG six months ago and he announced his move up more recently than Dake. Prior to Taylor's move, he and Cael had mentioned how cutting to 65KG was too much for him and I don't doubt Dake has been growing as well looking at them. There is no reason to think they are not athletes fit for this weight now.

 

Sure, Dake is a good wrestler that had a good showing against a solid field but Cox is the one that took the show due to his lack of accomplishments at this level prior to the event. And since this is the college forum, it seems a little strange to me that there is a thread to call to congratulate a senior level (professional) athlete on his efforts to almost beat a collegiate (amateur).

Edited by Pinnum

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Maybe it's because you're wrong about Dake being "fit" for 86 the way you think. They have weight classes for a reason, and giving up 20-25 lbs is 99.99% of the time a death wish.

 

There is no question Dske is really a 74 guy wrestling up a huge amount of weight in an attempt to make the team. That dynamic makes his accomplishments at 86 more interesting and worth discussing because we very rarely get to see an elite competitor doing the same.

 

Aside from giving due props to Cox, you do have one good point though. Wrong forum for this thread.

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This is the biggest issue i have... If it is true that Dake can easily make 74kg then I don't think the move is noble or brave but in fact cowardly. They are not moving up to just have an exciting matchup in an exhibition match for the fans as has been done at events like the All-Star. It is the opposite. It is ducking competition and baring fans from seeing an exciting matchup. Dake and Taylor are elite athletes that I think could possibly put on runs as many athletes have done over the years and steal a medal on the world stage. They should be competing at the beat weight possible for them to be able to compete at the highest level.

 

I hope 86kg is their best weight and they are not running from Burroughs. As a result, I will treat them as 86kg wrestlers so I can still cheer them on because if I believe they conceeded the possibility of having Olympic Success then they wouldn't be the warriors that have always wanted to take on and beat the best athletes who we have grown to admire.

(Mobile)

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This is the biggest issue i have... If it is true that Dake can easily make 74kg then I don't think the move is noble or brave but in fact cowardly. 

(Mobile)

Wow.  Just wow.  You lose a lot of respect from me with that gem.

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cow·ard

ˈkou(ə)rd/

noun

noun: coward; plural noun: cowards

1.

a person who lacks the courage to do or endure dangerous or unpleasant things.

 

 

Yes, being stuck behind Burroughs is unpleasant and it would be difficult to endure as an elite athlete but if you want to excel on the world stage and not just make the local team then you must perservier. It isn't as if no one has beat Burroughs. Even another American has done it with Marable taking a win and I am sure Dake believes he is better than Marable. Howe has constantly sat right behind Burroughs but keeps pushing for his shot.

 

If you're really illequiped to compete at that class due to your size then you're giving up your chance of being an Olympian at the weight you could excel on the world stage. That is a defeated mentality. (Mobile)

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Pinnum has a hardon against Cornell. It's thinly veiled but shows in his posts. For a guy who usually posts objectively and makes many solid contributions, it's weird. He is unusually quick to point out the negative view on Dake, Koll, etc.

 

Whether the move is cowardly or not doesn't take away from how impressive it is to do extremely well while giving up a lot of weight. In weight class sports, it is among the most impressive feats and constantly discussed among fans. Part of Gable's legend was his ability to give up 30+ lbs and grind guys down. It's not just a wrestling thing. One of the most predictable recurring topics of fans of any weight class sport is how an elite competitor would do up a weight, let alone the equivalent of two or three. That's Manny Pacquiao's entire legacy in boxing, for example. Connor McGregor is the highest paid MMa fighter of all time in part because he is willing to fight at three different weight classes, while BJ Penn was the first breakout lightweight star partly because he competed at two and once in as many as three weights at one time.

 

Whether due to cowardice or a desire to advance their careers, Dake and Taylor are doing what many fans have wanted to see for some time. I don't get why it's such a terrible crime to discuss it and be particularly impressed with a guy at a terrible size disadvantage doing well.

Edited by wrestlingnerd

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Seriously you think going at the weight that one feels they have the best shot of making a Olympic team is cowardly? I have to disagree 110 percent.

Yes, it's cowardly because all wrestlers should only consider Pinnum's viewing pleasure throughout their careers. Never should a wrestler do what's best for his best interests.

 

Cael Sanderson is a coward for leaving his alma mater to try his luck at building a legacy with a more favorable situation at the state school of the dominant wrestling state in the country. He too robbed fans of one of the best rivalries in the sport, making Iowa-ISU a foregone conclusion after he left for greener pastures.

 

Dave Schultz was a coward for moving up to make a world/Olympic team due to Lee Kemp. He too robbed fans of further matches against Kemp.

 

We can play this game all day long.

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cow·ard

ˈkou(ə)rd/

noun

noun: coward; plural noun: cowards

1.

a person who lacks the courage to do or endure dangerous or unpleasant things.

 

I guess I see it this way - Kyle Dake has set it as his goal to make the Olympic team; his goal is not necessarily to defeat Jordan Burroughs, although if that was the only path available to Dake, I have little doubt that he would persevere as long as necessary to do that.  But after weighing all of the alternatives, it's pretty clear to me that Dake saw another path, possibly a better path, to achieve his goal, and so he adjusted his approach.  I don't think he moved up for " lack (of) the courage to do or endure dangerous or unpleasant things."  We've seen him endure plenty of difficulty before.  I believe he made a judgement based on logic and analysis as to the best way to achieve his goal in the specific timeframe.  And he very nearly did it - but then for you to come out and publicly label one of our olympic hopefuls a coward.... Again. Wow.

 

I wish only that I could see you on the mat with Dake (or really, any D1 wrestler) for just 5 minutes...

 

Do you have the courage to challenge Dake to a match?  Or are you a coward?

Edited by redblades

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I am not in any way anti Cornell, Koll, or Dake. I am not sure why you'd think that.

I've noticed it in your posts over the past couple of years. Not a biggie. We all have an axe to grind somewhere. You're still a great poster. I just think you let your colors show a little here. I also think you're dead wrong. But it's all good.

Edited by wrestlingnerd

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No, Axe to grind.

 

The reason I (and I think so many others) have been a fan of Dake is because he has allowed his body to naturally dictate where he competes. If he is growing he just moves up without a concern for who is in front of him. He always believes he is going to win. He continues to step up time and time again to seek out the best in the world to take them on--just as he did in NYC when he wrestled Greco. I have long been a fan of Dake's. As many of you know, I often talk about how I think athletes cut too much weight because they are scared they won't be able to compete if they are not one of the largest at their weight.

 

I had no reason to think Dake (like Taylor) was not getting bigger and stronger as he kept training and that the cut to 74KG was taking its toll. After all, Dake had a bunch of injuries that really impacted his competition schedule. That is when you move up a weight. He moved up and he performed at that weight. He excelled and advanced through a very talented field.

 

As I said, I hope it is because it is a better weight for him and one that allowed him to focus on improving technique and having great endurance without having to battle the scale and risking injury rather than just trying to avoid Burroughs. Because as great as Burroughs is I wouldn't be shocked to see another American defeat him even in a two out of three series. We have some very talented athletes in the middle weights and anyone can have a bad day.

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I guess I see it this way - Kyle Dake has set it as his goal to make the Olympic team; his goal is not necessarily to defeat Jordan Burroughs, although if that was the only path available to Dake, I have little doubt that he would persevere as long as necessary to do that.  But after weighing all of the alternatives, it's pretty clear to me that Dake saw another path, possibly a better path, to achieve his goal, and so he adjusted his approach.  I don't think he moved up for " lack (of) the courage to do or endure dangerous or unpleasant things."  We've seen him endure plenty of difficulty before.  I believe he made a judgement based on logic and analysis as to the best way to achieve his goal in the specific timeframe.  And he very nearly did it - but then for you to come out and publicly label one of our olympic hopefuls a coward.... Again. Wow.

 

I wish only that I could see you on the mat with Dake (or really, any D1 wrestler) for just 5 minutes...

 

Do you have the courage to challenge Dake to a match?  Or are you a coward?

Just saw you edited your post.

 

To the part, I put in bold, of course I don't want to wrestle him. Yes, I am a coward when it comes to wrestling Dake. I do not want to endure that mauling and suffer such a painful defeat. I am not sure what answer you were expecting.

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I expect Dake to come back down sometime in the future. But right now, nobody on earth, certainly not in America, is touching a fresh JB with a 10-foot pole after running the mini-tournament gauntlet. Dake (and Taylor too) made a reasonable decision to move up and try to represent us in the Olympics. DT's move is likely permanent given his tall frame, but Dake knows as well as anyone JB is human and 86 kg is not the optimal weight internationally. At some point, I imagine he'll take another crack.

 

But it's not cowardly to try to make the team at the weight you think you have the best chance. That's just common sense. It's not like Dake avoided JB in the past, as many guys have done in our sport. He got beat a few times, decided he likely couldn't beat him at the moment given the qualification rules, and took what he felt was his best shot. What would be cowardly is not showing up to compete at all, as some guys did.

 

Just about every year, a weight class clears because a Dake, DT, Stieber, Dieringer, etc. are there. I guess wrestling is a sport full of cowards.... Or maybe not.

 

Other examples of "cowards" at the OTT per Pinnum's definition:

Coleman Scott, for embarking on a monster cut to avoid the studs at 143.

James Green, for doing the same to the point that he was minimally effective at 143 (versus world medalist at 154).

Chris Perry, who interestingly chose to move down to face one guy he couldn't beat versus stay at his weight to face maybe 3-4 he couldn't beat.

Edited by wrestlingnerd

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Just saw you edited your post.

 

To the part, I put in bold, of course I don't want to wrestle him. Yes, I am a coward when it comes to wrestling Dake. I do not want to endure that mauling and suffer such a painful defeat. I am not sure what answer you were expecting.

 

For my part - I wouldn't consider you a "coward" for not wrestling Dake; I suspect it wouldn't be much of a contest (and I can say with more certainty it wouldn't be much of a contest if I were to wrestle him myself!) and admitting as much is more a matter of good sense than courage, or lack thereof.

 

And I can respect your opinion that you don't consider Dake's move up "noble or brave"; I think it's more a matter of being pragmatic than being either praiseworthy or blameworthy.  But I strongly object to anyone labeling any of these guys as cowardly.  What all of these young men endure, with no guarantee of reward, is incredible, IMO.

 

End of rant.  I've got work to do.

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Burroughs didn't prevent Dake from making the Olympics, a college wrestler did that. 

That is oversimplified. The qualification process at 74kg made staying there frankly stupid. (Even when Dake outwrestled Burroughs, such as in the first match last year, he got shafted). That forced Dake and Taylor to move up to a weight with a weight limit of 86kg, 26lbs higher than 74kg. Cox is an excellent athlete but he got beat by the weight jump more than anything.  

Edited by straggler

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That is oversimplified. The qualification process at 74kg made staying there frankly stupid. (Even when Dake outwrestled Burroughs, such as in the first match last year, he got shafted). That forced Dake and Taylor to move up to a weight with a weight limit of 86kg, 26lbs higher than 74kg. Cox is an excellent athlete but he got beat by the weight jump more than anything.

 

He got beat by the weight jump? Have to disagree. He wasn't going to beat Burroughs and, as it would turn out, couldn't beat Cox.

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That is oversimplified. The qualification process at 74kg made staying there frankly stupid. (Even when Dake outwrestled Burroughs, such as in the first match last year, he got shafted). That forced Dake and Taylor to move up to a weight with a weight limit of 86kg, 26lbs higher than 74kg. Cox is an excellent athlete but he got beat by the weight jump more than anything.  

Dake wasn't shafted in any match against JB.  Further, the qualification process is perfect for testing whether an upstart has what it takes to be a world medalist.  JB has beaten him in a different way every time they have wrestled. 

Its unfair to Cox to say that Dake got beat by the weight.  Dake beat 3 guys who weighed in @ 86 during that tournament alone. He got beat by a better wrestler, pure and simple.  

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Dake wasn't shafted in any match against JB. Further, the qualification process is perfect for testing whether an upstart has what it takes to be a world medalist. JB has beaten him in a different way every time they have wrestled.

Its unfair to Cox to say that Dake got beat by the weight. Dake beat 3 guys who weighed in @ 86 during that tournament alone. He got beat by a better wrestler, pure and simple.

Agree, first three matches you guys say "Dake outskilled them, and out smarted them." Vs Cox it's "Oh dake was the better wrestler, just got out horsed."

 

Hush with that nonsense

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Dake wasn't shafted in any match against JB.  Further, the qualification process is perfect for testing whether an upstart has what it takes to be a world medalist.  JB has beaten him in a different way every time they have wrestled. 

Its unfair to Cox to say that Dake got beat by the weight.  Dake beat 3 guys who weighed in @ 86 during that tournament alone. He got beat by a better wrestler, pure and simple.  

Burroughs did not get a single takedown and was awarded 4 points on a thrown Dake initiated. I thought the call was dubious, but welcome to international wrestling I guess.

Nor do I think it is remotely unfair to say that jumping up to a weight with a weight limit 26 pounds higher in six months created a size advantage for Dake's opponents. I'm sorry but Cox (and Perry) were noticeably bigger. And from what I saw the size difference was the difference. Nice accomplishment but I saw nothing to suggest that Cox was ":better". 

Edited by straggler

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Agree, first three matches you guys say "Dake outskilled them, and out smarted them." Vs Cox it's "Oh dake was the better wrestler, just got out horsed."

 

Hush with that nonsense

Watch the Perry match. He was outsized there too. It is hardly radical that a guy moving up so much in weight would suffer some disadvantages. To argue otherwise seems like nonsense. To be honest I would have been interested to see Taylor vs. Cox because Taylor has the height/length for the weight. 

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Dake looked a lot bigger than most of the guys he wrestled against at NCAA's. That is wrestling. I didn't see people back then claiming he only won because he was bigger than Taylor or Molinaro or St. John ..etc.

 

Both wrestlers made weight and Dake lost to Cox. 

Edited by TBar1977

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Burroughs did not get a single takedown and was awarded 4 points on a thrown Dake initiated. I thought the call was dubious, but welcome to international wrestling I guess.

Nor do I think it is remotely unfair to say that jumping up to a weight with a weight limit 26 pounds higher in six months created a size advantage for Dake's opponents. I'm sorry but Cox (and Perry) were noticeably bigger. And from what I saw the size difference was the difference. Nice accomplishment but I saw nothing to suggest that Cox was ":better".

What did you see that made Dake seem better? The fact that he loss twice? On these forums we live in a fantasy world where we like to ignore flat out Wins and Losses. Cox, is the better wrestler. Edited by ArmDrag14

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