Off all the great stories this weekend, got to give props to Dake

[PANewbie 35]

For my part - I wouldn't consider you a "coward" for not wrestling Dake; I suspect it wouldn't be much of a contest (and I can say with more certainty it wouldn't be much of a contest if I were to wrestle him myself!) and admitting as much is more a matter of good sense than courage, or lack thereof.

 

And I can respect your opinion that you don't consider Dake's move up "noble or brave"; I think it's more a matter of being pragmatic than being either praiseworthy or blameworthy.  But I strongly object to anyone labeling any of these guys as cowardly.  What all of these young men endure, with no guarantee of reward, is incredible, IMO.

 

End of rant.  I've got work to do.

 

Nor would I consider Dake a coward for running away from Burroughs...

[straggler 65]

What did you see that made Dake seem better? The fact that he loss twice? On these forums we live in a fantasy world where we like to ignore flat out Wins and Losses. Cox, is the better wrestler.

Fantasy word is also flatly ignoring the circumstances. Dake is jumping up from 74kg to 86kg. That is 26 pounds. How many people have done that successfully if anyone? What I saw was Cox holding on for dear life against a guy he was significantly bigger than. Nothing wrong with that, but that is what happened. 

[ArmDrag14 64]

Fantasy word is also flatly ignoring the circumstances. Dake is jumping up from 74kg to 86kg. That is 26 pounds. How many people have done that successfully if anyone? What I saw was Cox holding on for dear life against a guy he was significantly bigger than. Nothing wrong with that, but that is what happened.

WHAT I SAW WAS DAKE LOSE TWICE

[redblades 322]

What I saw:

 

J'Den Cox won the 86KG weight class Olympic Team Trials.

Kyle Dake finished 2nd.

David Taylor finished 3rd.

 

What I conclude:

 

J'Den earned the right to represent the US at the "last chance" qualifiers; hopefully, he will qualify the weight to represent the US in Rio.

Dake and Taylor, while putting in impressive performances moving up a weight - nevertheless both finish out of the money.

 

I know all of this is pretty subtle and difficult to grasp; but really I can't understand why some folks need to try to magnify, or diminish, what any of these guys have done!!

Edited April 19, 2016 by redblades

[fullnelson 130]

 Simple reasoning, Dake and Taylor realized to make the Olympic Team, clearly they had to move up-to be an Olympian. It's not cowardly, it is what's the best chance to make the team? It was worth the risk.

[MSU158 2,012]

How about this question?  Would J'Den Cox have been the better wrestler at 86kg with a 1 hour weigh-in?  Under the current rules, Cox absolutely earned and deserved the win.  But, blasting people for pointing out that size was a significant factor is simply ignoring an obvious truth.  Cox at 205lbs is better than Dake at 185lbs.  I don't think anyone here would argue against that.......

[ArmDrag14 64]

Would Unicorns be fun to ride

[Cletus_Tucker 890]

How about this question?  Would J'Den Cox have been the better wrestler at 86kg with a 1 hour weigh-in?  Under the current rules, Cox absolutely earned and deserved the win.  But, blasting people for pointing out that size was a significant factor is simply ignoring an obvious truth.  Cox at 205lbs is better than Dake at 185lbs.  I don't think anyone here would argue against that.......

 

 

Also, lets consider, the 205 pound Cox only had 2 weeks preparation time.   The 185 pound Dake has been preparing for this since he graduated college.   Would Cox have looked better, had he not had that glaring disadvantage?  I suspect we will see a much more definitive win for the Missouri star, when this becomes his profession,and not simply a last minute effort, just for kicks.   The kid does not even have a passport, for Pete's sake.  

[straggler 65]

Also, lets consider, the 205 pound Cox only had 2 weeks preparation time.   The 185 pound Dake has been preparing for this since he graduated college.   Would Cox have looked better, had he not had that glaring disadvantage?  I suspect we will see a much more definitive win for the Missouri star, when this becomes his profession,and not simply a last minute effort, just for kicks.   The kid does not even have a passport, for Pete's sake.  

Let's see if he can qualify the weight. 86kg does not have many ranked wrestlers who have not qualified already. As to the rest, the idea that such a size advantage is not a factor is laughable. It is a 26.5 pound difference between the weight limits and Cox was 200+ who cut down. Those are the breaks but those are also the simple facts.   

[Cletus_Tucker 890]

Let's see if he can qualify the weight. 86kg does not have many ranked wrestlers who have not qualified already. As to the rest, the idea that such a size advantage is not a factor is laughable. It is a 26.5 pound difference between the weight limits and Cox was 200+ who cut down. Those are the breaks but those are also the simple facts.   

 

I think it's fair to say that with the advantages and disadvantages factored in, Cox proved to be the superior wrestler, head to head.   I don't see how anyone can dispute that.

[ArmDrag14 64]

Once again. No one is saying size wasn't a factor. Cox was the better wrestler at 86 kilos. 86. The one Dake registered for. The one he knew who his competition would be for. The one every wrestler knew the weigh in rules. Even you and me knew. At 86 kilos. 80 + 6 kilos. Not ignoring Cox is Bigger than Dake. But in case someone forgot it was at 86 Kilos. And the weigh ins were the way they were, for everyone in the tournament. And Cox was the better wrestler at the weight Dake decided to wrestle, which was 86 kilos in case you forgot. Then Dake loss 2 times, which usually says who's the better wrestler, at the weight they wrestled. (Which was 86 kilos)

Edited April 20, 2016 by ArmDrag14

[WRfan1 152]

He's still the only NCAA wrestler to risk a sure thing (NCAA Title at 157) and 4-timer status and move up a weight class to face arguably the best wrestler in the nation for one reason and one reason only - to prove a point.  The dude had stones and always will.  

I think the trials format was different, he would've stayed down, but I also think the injuries he's had over the last couple years went into the decision.  He needed to lift and get strong and avoid injuries.  I think he's going to be a force for the next 4 years.  Remember, he's younger than Taylor and Steiber - he's got a lot left in the tank. 

[jerbufoon 40]

Are people not impressed with Cox or something? He won the Olympic trials while still in college. 

 

Lets forget about Dake for a second and recognize how amazing it is that Cox beat everyone in front of him.

 

He not only beat the old guard, he beat the new guard.

 

Cox taking 1st is way more impressive than Dake taking second while moving up a weight with ample time to adjust to the weight. 

[straggler 65]

I do not think anything I've said is remote controversial. Dake did something virtually unprecedented. In a few months he moved up to a weight class with a limit 26.5 pounds heavier than the one he had competed in and almost made the Olympic team. It is the equivalent of Imar at 157 moving up to 184; it is almost an identical weight difference (27lbs to 26.5lbs). I'm sorry but if Dean beat Imar a few months after the NCAAs, even by a few points as opposed to one, would anyone say based on that that Dean is therefore the more talented of the two? That is why year after year we debate who is the best pound for pound wrestler, because we realize that all things are not equal, and that a guy moving up substantially suffers a huge disadvantage.

 

Is Cox the better choice for the US at 86kg? Yes. I've said more than once that Dake is simply too small for the weight and that he would have no chance of medaling. But does that make Cox more talented than Dake? Hell no. No even close. We saw a bigger, taller, stronger guy take advantage of it. As to his upside, who knows?   

Edited April 20, 2016 by straggler

[ArmDrag14 64]

Cox is more talented than Dake at 86 kilos. 86 KILOS. WHICH DAKE REGISTERD FOR SO WE JUDGE AT 86 kilos. WHICH COX WAS THE BETTER WRESTLER. BECAUSE HE WON TWICE.

 

Good lord people

[Cletus_Tucker 890]

He's still the only NCAA wrestler to risk a sure thing (NCAA Title at 157) and 4-timer status and move up a weight class to face arguably the best wrestler in the nation for one reason and one reason only - to prove a point.  The dude had stones and always will.  

I think the trials format was different, he would've stayed down, but I also think the injuries he's had over the last couple years went into the decision.  He needed to lift and get strong and avoid injuries.  I think he's going to be a force for the next 4 years.  Remember, he's younger than Taylor and Steiber - he's got a lot left in the tank. 

 

 

 

Of the other 3 (4 timers) who were in his position, who had the best wrestler, up a weight class, in order to move up against, and risk a title and becoming 4 timers?    

 

It's certainly a great accomplishment, but listing him as the only one of a 1 to do it, is much to do about hyperbole, and not much else.   

 

Cael would be the only one to move up a weight class, about 196 pounds in order to accomplish his 4th title, and risk his sure thing at 184.   

 

We could find obscure tidbits like these for all of them.    I guess you use that, if you feel his resume isn't good enough without it? 

[Cletus_Tucker 890]

Cox is clearly the more talented guy.  With 2 weeks notice, he makes the Olympic team,while still in college.   Dake fled his weight class, because no amount of preparation, could get him ready to qualify.   He chose to try his luck where he felt the competition was MUCH weaker, and he got beat by a college underclassmen.    No question Cox is more talented. 

[straggler 65]

Cox is clearly the more talented guy.  With 2 weeks notice, he makes the Olympic team,while still in college.   Dake fled his weight class, because no amount of preparation, could get him ready to qualify.   He chose to try his luck where he felt the competition was MUCH weaker, and he got beat by a college underclassmen.    No question Cox is more talented. 

So are you saying that Cox first started freestyle wrestling two weeks ago? Wow. :) You do not need any preparation to outweigh an opponent by 20 pounds. All the sudden common sense and weight classification means nothing. Of course Cox is talented. He has two NCAA titles already. But at equal weights he loses every time. Cox is not Burroughs. But then again neither is Snyder; maybe he surprises me. Dake left 74kg because the qualification process was a travesty. An athlete has to know when the game is rigged too much to play.   

Edited April 21, 2016 by straggler

[TBar1977 4,539]

Dake won a lot of matches where he outweighed his opponent. This thread is pretty funny.

Edited April 21, 2016 by TBar1977

[MSU158 2,012]

Cox is clearly the more talented guy.  With 2 weeks notice, he makes the Olympic team,while still in college.   Dake fled his weight class, because no amount of preparation, could get him ready to qualify.   He chose to try his luck where he felt the competition was MUCH weaker, and he got beat by a college underclassmen.    No question Cox is more talented. 

I am pretty sure that a Junior is not an underclassmen, but he was only 21 at the time so you can use the 4 year age difference if you wish.

[Cletus_Tucker 890]

I am pretty sure that a Junior is not an underclassmen, but he was only 21 at the time so you can use the 4 year age difference if you wish.

 

In the interest of accuracy, I looked it up for you.   Here's what I found

 

 

un·der·class·man

ˌəndərˈklasmən/

noun

plural noun: underclassmen

1. a student in high school or college who is not a senior.

[Cletus_Tucker 890]

So are you saying that Cox first started freestyle wrestling two weeks ago? Wow. :) You do not need any preparation to outweigh an opponent by 20 pounds. All the sudden common sense and weight classification means nothing. Of course Cox is talented. He has two NCAA titles already. But at equal weights he loses every time. Cox is not Burroughs. But then again neither is Snyder; maybe he surprises me. Dake left 74kg because the qualification process was a travesty. An athlete has to know when the game is rigged too much to play.   

 

 

That's not what I'm saying.   

 

What I am saying is, while Dake prepared for this event since he moved up in weight, or perhaps even since he graduated college, Cox threw his hat in the ring, 2 weeks ago, and began to prepare, after his college season.     Of course that gave Dake and the entire field a tremendous advantage, but Cox still managed to win.      You insist Dake wins if they weighed the same.    We have nothing to base that on, other than your speculation.    If they weighed the same, does Dake still get the advantage of training specifically from freestyle and for the weight class he enjoyed over Cox, or would that be equal s well, (like the weight)?  

 

The reality here is anyone can make up their scenario, in order to come up with a hypothetical where Dake wins.   There really is no right, as we can't possibly determine the outcome, but it is good for conversation.    

 

What we do know, despite both Dake and Cox, weighing in for the 86 kg weight class, and with Cox having very limited time to prepare, They both reached the final.   The #1 seed Dake looked fantastic and was poised to make an Olympic team.   But unseeded and lightly regarded Cox, was not impressed.   He beat Dake 2 times and left little, if any doubt, as to who the superior wrestler and better athlete is.    This just cannot be undone in the hypothetical game of "but if Dake was a bigger person..."  

[straggler 65]

That's not what I'm saying.   

 

What I am saying is, while Dake prepared for this event since he moved up in weight, or perhaps even since he graduated college, Cox threw his hat in the ring, 2 weeks ago, and began to prepare, after his college season.     Of course that gave Dake and the entire field a tremendous advantage, but Cox still managed to win.      You insist Dake wins if they weighed the same.    We have nothing to base that on, other than your speculation.    If they weighed the same, does Dake still get the advantage of training specifically from freestyle and for the weight class he enjoyed over Cox, or would that be equal s well, (like the weight)?  

 

The reality here is anyone can make up their scenario, in order to come up with a hypothetical where Dake wins.   There really is no right, as we can't possibly determine the outcome, but it is good for conversation.    

 

What we do know, despite both Dake and Cox, weighing in for the 86 kg weight class, and with Cox having very limited time to prepare, They both reached the final.   The #1 seed Dake looked fantastic and was poised to make an Olympic team.   But unseeded and lightly regarded Cox, was not impressed.   He beat Dake 2 times and left little, if any doubt, as to who the superior wrestler and better athlete is.    This just cannot be undone in the hypothetical game of "but if Dake was a bigger person..."  

Now we are entering the twilight zone. Dake went up to a weight class that was 27 pounds heavier than the one he ideally competes in, and tried to do so in manner of months. He did not do it due to natural growth. He did it because 74kg, his natural weight, was blocked off. Dake is and will remain too small for the 86kg weight. Yet your theory is that going up 27 pounds, the equivalent of three NCAA weight classes, had no bearing on the outcome. I mean, come on.  You do not even believe that. And I know you don't because right after the match you wrote that you had picked Cox because the size disadvantage was too great. Does not matter how long Dake "prepared". He was never going to be big enough for the weight, period. Cox is certainly talented, but he won simply because he was considerably bigger and heavier than the guy he was competing with. And before Cox Dake was all in against Perry for the exact same reason, despite the claim that he looked "fantastic." But instead of giving Dake his due for almost pulling off the impossible, you magically decide that Cox had no advantage over a guy he was significantly bigger than, even though every point Cox scored could be attributed to the size difference.(eg, the take down and push out in the 3rd match). Dake went up to weight class with a limit 27 pounds heavier and came within a hair's breath of making the Olympic team. Cox won but that's all.    

Edited April 21, 2016 by straggler

[BigTimeFan 1,141]

Moving up is tough. Remember 1989? Kenny Monday beat Arsen Fadzaev in the finals of the world championships. Check out the video at 4:07

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiPkWO7RxSE

 

Horsed I say! He got horsed!

[ArmDrag14 64]

Dake loss. Less superior wrestler.