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Burroughs and Molinaro

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This kind of like Cox vs Snyder. Traded matches in high school also. How often do high school nemesis become part of the same team with only six spots? We have two sets on this Olympic team.

Edited by PRyan2012

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This kind of like Cox vs Snyder. Traded matches in high school also. How often do high school nemesis become part of the same team with only six spots? We have two sets on this Olympic team.

Well if you limit it to just the 6 spots era, it's a very short period of time we're looking at, and thus it does not seem very remarkable at all.  

 

Like saying, how many times has it happened in the past 5 years.      

 

Well, not many, but it's a very narrow stretch of time, to look at.  

 

how many Olympic trials champions have we had at 65 kg?  Just 1, Molinaro.     The weight was just recently created.   

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Molinaro.  What can you say.  He somehow navigated the minefield and came out on top this weekend.  I happen to think our shot at medaling the weight went down the tubes with that but I'll still be pulling for the guy.  I did really enjoy the s*it eating grin, sign of the cross, straight to a nut grab after his Metcalf win.  Seems somewhat conflicting, no?

Edited by LongShot

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Molinaro.  What can you say.  He somehow navigated the minefield and came out on top this weekend.  I happen to think our shot at medaling the weight went down the tubes with that but I'll still be pulling for the guy.  I did really enjoy the s*it eating grin, sign of the cross, straight to a nut grab after his Metcalf win.  Seems somewhat conflicting, no?

 

What was our shot at medaling before Molinaro got the spot?  There is a reason the weight isn't even qualified yet...

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What was our shot at medaling before Molinaro got the spot?  There is a reason the weight isn't even qualified yet...

Do you really think nobody else in the US would've won that match Metcalf lost? Metcalfe didn't perform at Pan Ams. That's why it isn't qualified. We probably have at least 3 guys who would've qualified in that tournament.

 

With that said, our medal chances are not that high, but with Molinaro are non existent. His style of wrestling is going to be slaughtered internationally. 

 

Personally, I think Pico and Stieber are the only guys who had a shot, albeit a slight one, to medal. Pico at his best could medal and Stieber has the offense to do it if he is at 100% as well. 

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Do you really think nobody else in the US would've won that match Metcalf lost? Metcalfe didn't perform at Pan Ams. That's why it isn't qualified. We probably have at least 3 guys who would've qualified in that tournament.

 

With that said, our medal chances are not that high, but with Molinaro are non existent. His style of wrestling is going to be slaughtered internationally. 

 

Personally, I think Pico and Stieber are the only guys who had a shot, albeit a slight one, to medal. Pico at his best could medal and Stieber has the offense to do it if he is at 100% as well. 

 

So Pico and Stieber both had a shot but the guy who beat one of them once and one of them twice has zero shot?  Makes a ton of sense to me.

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So Pico and Stieber both had a shot but the guy who beat one of them once and one of them twice has zero shot?  Makes a ton of sense to me.

Seems logical, right?  There are NO sure bets at the weight for the US, and Metcalf has CLEARLY been the guy for a while now, and never sniffed a medal.  Now all of a sudden the world is ending because Frank won?  What a joke.

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Do you really think nobody else in the US would've won that match Metcalf lost? Metcalfe didn't perform at Pan Ams. That's why it isn't qualified. We probably have at least 3 guys who would've qualified in that tournament.

 

With that said, our medal chances are not that high, but with Molinaro are non existent. His style of wrestling is going to be slaughtered internationally. 

 

Personally, I think Pico and Stieber are the only guys who had a shot, albeit a slight one, to medal. Pico at his best could medal and Stieber has the offense to do it if he is at 100% as well. 

 

Frank won the weight class with Stieber, Pico and Metcalf all participating.  Frank beat Metcalf and he beat Pico twice... I'm not sure why you are so upset. Frank performed when it counted and his rivals flopped

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Frank won the weight class with Stieber, Pico and Metcalf all participating.  Frank beat Metcalf and he beat Pico twice... I'm not sure why you are so upset. Frank performed when it counted and his rivals flopped

They are upset for the same reason others are upset:  They're haters.  

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They are upset for the same reason others are upset:  They're haters.  

 

I don't like Ohio St.  I'm also a big fan of Molinaro's passion and intensity.  But I watch a lot of international wrestling--as do many people on this international wrestling board.  When guys are closely matched domestically, one guy coming out on top once, or even 2 out of 3, doesn't mean necessarily that his style translates well internationally.  Molinaro absolutely deserves the spot, but he has shown ZERO effectiveness with his defense-first style outside our borders.  Meanwhile, Stieber has shown that his relentless offense--particularly with attacks that are varied and unique compared to many of the international guys--results in wins against top people.  We've been down the defense-first path with high-octane weights like 57 and 65 many, many times.  They virtually never get medals.  Dennis and Molinaro will struggle mightily against the freaks in Rio if he can (hopefully) qualify the weight.  As others have said, it has nothing to do with hate or deserving anything--Pico or Stieber would have given us a puncher's chance that Metcalf wouldn't have and that Molinaro won't.

Edited by maligned

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Americans are THE BEST at scoring on and neutralizing the American style.  Pico is the best example we have right now of the American style, and Molinaro has the one style that is best at beating that, which is be incredibly strong, have awesome defense, and have enough in the gas tank to put 90 seconds of offense or defense at the end of the match.  This is why Burroughs has more problems with Howe than he does with most other world medalists.

 

Pico could probably qualify or place at a higher chance than Molinaro, but thats not how we run things in this town.  I am rooting more for Molinaro just because Americans hate him in general and I like his attitude.

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I don't understand all the vitriol on this thread.

 

I went back and watched almost all of the matches from the OTTs at 65kg and I am not sure why people are so confident that Pico is the best bet for Team USA. He could have easily lost either of his first two matches and he did lose two matches in the finals. Not only did Molinaro win the event by beating Pico twice but he also beat two of the favorites going into the event.

 

There is no doubt in my mind that you don't come back against athletes at the Olympics when you give up points early and that was something Pico consistently did in the tournament.

 

Molinaro is so much better than he was a year ago. There is no reason for me to think he wouldn't be the rep. Sure, if the bracket was re-wrestled we could have five or six different guys win it but that doesn't mean any of the guys aren't deserving. Molinaro showed up when it mattered.

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I don't understand all the vitriol on this thread.

 

I went back and watched almost all of the matches from the OTTs at 65kg and I am not sure why people are so confident that Pico is the best bet for Team USA. He could have easily lost either of his first two matches and he did lose two matches in the finals. Not only did Molinaro win the event by beating Pico twice but he also beat two of the favorites going into the event.

 

There is no doubt in my mind that you don't come back against athletes at the Olympics when you give up points early and that was something Pico consistently did in the tournament.

 

Molinaro is so much better than he was a year ago. There is no reason for me to think he wouldn't be the rep. Sure, if the bracket was re-wrestled we could have five or six different guys win it but that doesn't mean any of the guys aren't deserving. Molinaro showed up when it mattered.

I don't think anyone has disagreed with any of this.  There's no vitriol.  We just think a couple guys with more attacking upside would have a better chance to medal considering all these guys are so evenly matched.

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Pico is far and away the better choice, for international competition.   It is not even a serous discussion, between the young phenom and Molinaro. 

 

Pico has been on the big stage, many times.   He has done the travel and he has a good understanding of the tactics and tendencies of the international opponent.   He has dealt with the tremendous pressure of the big stage and quite frankly, he looks like the better wrestler, to boot.  

 

Molinaro won the spot and deserves to challenge in Mongolia and then Turkey, if needed.    If he somehow manages to qualify the weight class, he,  deserves to go to the Olympics.    But lets not pretend like he has any edge over Pico, in terms of outperforming the young California star.    

 

Molinaro will be in uncharted waters from an experience stand point on foreign soil, from the enormity of the event, and from a lack of experience against foreign competition.    Pico probably wins 3 or 4 more matches in Rio, than Molinaro does.   It is silly, to even attempt to argue otherwise.  Even if Molinaro was the better wrestler, the other factors present make him far and away inferior.   If he's not the better wrestler, and yet has the challenges I've highlighted here, he is not likely to even win a bout.   Brent Metcalf would be a better choice than Frank Molinaro and we know how well he does on the big stage.   

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Assuming we aim to fill each weight class with the athlete with the highest probability of success in Rio, then saying that Molinaro is not that guy is saying that we need a new system. It's clear from this thread that a number of people are not persuaded -- and won't easily be persuaded -- that just because Frank beat Metcalf and beat Pico twice he is the guy with the highest success probability. So the argument is "yeah, but it's more complex than that, there's international experience, there is which style translates best" and so on. So fine, but then I am curious what a better system for selection might be. Should we have the coaches make the final decision out of the top three, for example? 

 

My two cents: I think Frank has improved and peaked for the trials. I think the Frank Molinaro we saw up till now was a more plodding, methodical, less dynamic wrestler than the one who stepped on the mat in Hawkeye-Carver. Maybe it's the training, maybe he finally put it all together, but I think he looked great.

 

I also think that Pico arguably had the best freestyle showing of his young career at the trials. He was NOT a consistent winner at the highest level in the US. Pico lost to Stieber, Molinaro and Humphreys 

 

1. Split with Molinaro at Farrell

2. Lost to Stieber at US Nationals (Dec 2015) by a score of 13-4

3. Lost by TF to Hump for 3rd-4th and US Nationals 10-0 (Dec 2015)

 

So yes Pico was my pick. Yes I think that Pico was rapidly improving and will continue to do so. But it's not like some guy who never loses in the US had a bad day and the wrong guy was obviously chosen. Pico had significant recent losses to guys well down the ladder. 

 

Finally, think of it in reverse. Had Pico won lots of people might have pointed to all those losses said that's ridiculous a guy who was teched by Hump and beaten up by Stieber a few months ago is our rep? Not me, but I am just saying that in the case of Pico there is that consideration.

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But it's not like some guy who never loses in the US had a bad day and the wrong guy was obviously chosen.

 

 Brent Metcalf never loses to anyone in the US, and obviously had a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad day.

 

I think overall you're right though; Frank beat outright or out placed the best guys the U.S. had, and proved that he is the man for the job.  The things that should change about our system are dictated by the World/Olympic format, i.e. doing the weights in one day, criteria, etc.  We do it like they do it there for a reason, and Frank proved himself in that format.

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Very interesting and very cool.  Looked up Yonemitsu -- 2012 Olympic Gold Medalist.  Navuzov, 2015 world silver medalist.  The NLWC brought these guys in?   Helps to explain Zain's elevation too.

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Finally, think of it in reverse. Had Pico won lots of people might have pointed to all those losses said that's ridiculous a guy who was teched by Hump and beaten up by Stieber a few months ago is our rep? Not me, but I am just saying that in the case of Pico there is that consideration.

Nobody would have said that because 1) he's 19 and clearly on a steep learning curve, 2) he's shown that he can compete with the best in the world at both 65 AND 70kg, and 3) his offensive pressure converts very, very well to international competitions where scoring a lot and having a gas tank are enormous pluses.  With Molinaro, he has improved in the last number of months, but he may also have just put together a really, really good day.  Time will tell.  

 

To the question of how we could do our system differently: I for one would not be strongly opposed to a selection jury of some sort, as long as very clear selection criteria were put in place that still weighed the OTTs heavily.  Then, if the jury's sole purpose was to select the guy they thought had the best chance to win a medal, they could bring in considerations of international and recent domestic performances.  

(If there were such a jury this year, I'm sure all weights but 65 would have the OTT champ selected; but the discussions between Molinaro, Pico, Stieber, and Metcalf based on the past 6 to 12 months of performances could get very, very interesting with differing opinions in a room trying to decide who could genuinely advance through an olympic-quality bracket.)

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molinaro is training with yonemitsu, gomez, and navruzov, not to mention he has zain in the room too. he wrestles better guys on a daily basis than every other american in the weight. i think molinaro will do just as well as pico might have. 

 

In the room, I have no question he's prepared.   bring anyone to NLWC and he should do well.   

 

On an international mat, on foreign soil, with the pressure of the Olympic games, and getting looks he has NEVER seen before, lets hope and pray, you're correct.   I'd love for the United States  futility at 65 kg (on the world stage) to finally end.  

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