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When was the last time... (Dake thread)

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I think its safe to assume that Dake would have an easier time winning 157, but is choosing to risk it all to prove a point - to himself, his critics, the world - who knows? He's purposefully risking a much easier road to 4 titles. When is the last time this has happened (obviously not the 4 titles aspect)?

 

I remember speculation that Mark Schultz move up to 177 was in part to stop Ed Banach from winning 4 (it would have been Banach's 3rd at the time), in addition to Dave wrestling 167 - but I don't know if that was really the motivation or not. I can't think of another example of this - is there one?

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First off, I call BS on the Schultz-Banach thing. Schultz's brother was at 167, he had to go 177. Plus he went 177 the next year anyway. It's a nice story, and I have no doubt that he thought he could beat Banach, but that's not the REASON he went 177. The reason is that Dave went 167. Oklahoma was trying to win the team title, they also had all-americans at 150 and 158. Dave HAD to go 167 and Mark HAD to go 177.

 

As for Dake, and I'm a huge fan, I'm guessing that it's no more than 50% the idea of Taylor and the 4 different weight classes. He would have a hard time making 157 at this point. He is cutting at least something to make 165. If it was only about Taylor, he has already proven his point three times over. It's at least partially that 157 would be tough. At this point, you would have to call Dake a legit 165 pounder. COULD he make 157? Probably...but it wouldn't be fun. As a Dake fan, I can tell you that if he loses to Taylor at the NCAAs I wouldn't use weight as an excuse.

 

A better example is Cael when he went 197. Cael made 184 after that, heck he even made 184 last year. Granted Trenge isn't Taylor (p4p) but Trenge was better than anyone at 184 at that point.

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First off, I call BS on the Schultz-Banach thing. Schultz's brother was at 167, he had to go 177. Plus he went 177 the next year anyway. It's a nice story, and I have no doubt that he thought he could beat Banach, but that's not the REASON he went 177. The reason is that Dave went 167.

 

As for Dake, and I'm a huge fan, I'm guessing that it's no more than 50% the idea of Taylor and the 4 different weight classes. He would have a hard time making 157 at this point. He is cutting at least something to make 165. If it was only about Taylor, he has already proven his point three times over. It's at least partially that 157 would be tough. At this point, you would have to call Dake a legit 165 pounder. COULD he make 157? Probably...but it wouldn't be fun. As a Dake fan, I can tell you that if he loses to Taylor at the NCAAs I wouldn't use weight as an excuse.

 

A better example is Cael when he went 197. Cael made 184 after that, heck he even made 184 last year. Granted Trenge isn't Taylor (p4p) but Trenge was better than anyone at 184 at that point.

 

I thought about Cale, but don't think its near the same thing. Cale wasn't going up to prove a point, or to chase down a tougher match up. He had just as easy a time at 197 as he would of at 184 - he wasn't risking things the same way Dake is currently.

 

The heat on Dake to move up seems different too. I don't remember a groundswell of folks wanting Pat Smith to go 167 to win 4.

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Look, if Dake wins I think there is a case to be made to call him the best college wrestler ever. (No redshirt, 4 different weights, beating 2 if not eventually 3 other NCAA champs in finals.) But he already proved what he needed to prove vis a vis Taylor. I think he is putting this pressure on himself, and yes part of it is about his place in history. Nobody has even AA'd in 4 different weights, let alone won in 4 different weights. If he does it, obviously it's awesome. But if he stayed at 157 and won, it would still be insanely awesome..he still would have been the first guy to win 4x without a redshirt.

 

 

Smith is totally different. First off, he hadn't already won in 3 different weights. Second, he had an NCAA champ on his own team at 167.

 

There is no doubt that Dake has a flair for the dramatic. There is also no doubt that Dake cares about the fans and cares about promoting the sport. But part of it also is that weight. More than anything else, it's Dake being Dake and having supreme confidence in himself.

 

The question, to me, is what Dake would have done had he and Taylor not met over the summer. There is no doubt in my mind that the massacre over the summer emboldened Dake to make this decision, and correctly so. Regardless, this is not ONLY about Taylor and the 4 weight classes. Dake definitely feels more comfortable at 165 at this point in his career. In some ways, it is similar to Cael. Obviously the Taylor factor complicates things, but Cael knew he didn't HAVE to cut to 184 to win. Dake thinks he doesn't HAVE to cut to 157 to win. I think he's right, but we shall see.

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Koll said Dake likes to eat, and that's pretty much all there is too it. Flair for the dramatic made the move even more likely, but Dake was weighing 170 last year when wrestling 157, so there's no doubt he's probably in the 175 range this year. 165 is an easy cut for him, 157 would be brutal and no fun.

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Koll said Dake likes to eat, and that's pretty much all there is too it. Flair for the dramatic made the move even more likely, but Dake was weighing 170 last year when wrestling 157, so there's no doubt he's probably in the 175 range this year. 165 is an easy cut for him, 157 would be brutal and no fun.

 

 

157 would not be brutal at all. Dake cuts about 7-8 lbs to make 165, and that is after being constantly hydrated (i.e. not cutting the weight after already keeping it low and under control before the cut). He has mentioned this in interviews several times. He would make 157 without too much of a struggle. He was cutting more than that his freshman year a full three weights lower.

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Look, if Dake wins I think there is a case to be made to call him the best college wrestler ever.

 

I have great respect for Dake and thoroughly enjoy watching him compete. He's certainly an elite competitor. But i don't get the sense that I'm watching someone that transcends the sport the way I did when Cael was competing. Just my opinion...

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Koll said Dake likes to eat, and that's pretty much all there is too it. Flair for the dramatic made the move even more likely, but Dake was weighing 170 last year when wrestling 157, so there's no doubt he's probably in the 175 range this year. 165 is an easy cut for him, 157 would be brutal and no fun.

 

 

There was a video here this summer that said his walk around weight was in the low 160s. So that would mean he isn't cutting much at all. Although he has bulked up, he still looks small next to Taylor (almost as thick and a lot longer)

 

Doesn't 165 more closely mirror an Olympic weight? That and I think he wanted to prove a point. He's had pretty thin weight classes so far. He dodged bullets in Caldwell (injury) and Russell (RS). So his only really big win is Molinaro (Humphrey, St John and Marion are good wins too, but not historical opponents)

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Well, I suppose the next logical step would be to count the number of AAs these guys have beaten through their careers, so we can figure out who had the tougher competition.......?

 

What's next after that?

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157 would not be brutal at all. Dake cuts about 7-8 lbs to make 165, and that is after being constantly hydrated (i.e. not cutting the weight after already keeping it low and under control before the cut). He has mentioned this in interviews several times. He would make 157 without too much of a struggle. He was cutting more than that his freshman year a full three weights lower.

 

But the fact remains making 165 is very easy. 157 would be less fun. He's not simply going 165 just because of Taylor.

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There was a video here this summer that said his walk around weight was in the low 160s. So that would mean he isn't cutting much at all.

 

I don't think that's true. Dake was cutting quite a bit for 157, so there's no way he was in the low 160s naturally. Last year Koll said if Dake wasn't careful after a tournament his weight would shoot up into the 170s. He's not cutting much for 165, but he's dropping at least a few pounds. He's not simply a 157 pounder that is bumping up, and holding a gatorade while standing on the scale because he's so far under.

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dsnc, what is your point? Nobody knows precisely why Dake is at 165, and frankly, who cares? If you are making the argument that he is not at 157 because he can't make the weight, you are being ridiculous. He was likely cutting more weight to make 141 than he would to make 157. Is 157 harder to make than 165? Uh, yes, it's 8 more lbs. Is that much to a D1 college wrestler, though? How many guys don't cut 5-7 lbs? I'm not sure I know of even one ranked wrestler above 133 or 141 who falls in that category. 5-7 lbs is nothing. I met Cael one time when he was at 197 and he was cutting 5 lbs to get down to weight, and he was more of a 184 lber than a 197 lber. I only mention him because you brought him up as an example of a guy who must've cut nothing. By D1 standards, 5 lbs IS nothing.

 

What exactly is your point?

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Calling BS on this one too. Owings wrestled 130 the year before he beat Gable at 142.

 

The year Owings wrestled 130 (actually 134 I think) at the NCAA's, his freshman year, he won the U of Wash. invite at 177, AND won the OW award...

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dsnc, what is your point? Nobody knows precisely why Dake is at 165, and frankly, who cares? If you are making the argument that he is not at 157 because he can't make the weight, you are being ridiculous. He was likely cutting more weight to make 141 than he would to make 157. Is 157 harder to make than 165? Uh, yes, it's 8 more lbs. Is that much to a D1 college wrestler, though? How many guys don't cut 5-7 lbs? I'm not sure I know of even one ranked wrestler above 133 or 141 who falls in that category. 5-7 lbs is nothing. I met Cael one time when he was at 197 and he was cutting 5 lbs to get down to weight, and he was more of a 184 lber than a 197 lber. I only mention him because you brought him up as an example of a guy who must've cut nothing. By D1 standards, 5 lbs IS nothing.

 

 

What exactly is your point?

 

 

He even said over the summer he was lighter than he was the year before, and that he could do either weight class (then adding that winning at 4 different weight classes would be an unbeatable accomplishment).

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Calling BS on this one too. Owings wrestled 130 the year before he beat Gable at 142.

 

 

Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not since this is a pretty widely known story.

 

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... /index.htm

I wasn't calling BS on the amount he weighed, I'm calling BS on the decision to go 142 being solely a vision quest to beat Gable. In the article he basically says that 130 was too much of a cut, so he went 142. If he made 130 that year (or after that year)...that's one thing. But he says that he couldn't make 130 anymore.

 

Yes, the day of the tourney he says he wants to face Gable in the finals. Don't you think every person in that bracket would have said that? What was he supposed to say? "I don't want to make the finals?" "I hope someone else knocks Gable off?"

 

There are examples of guys going up (or down) to face someone in a specific match or tourney. I don't know of a single example of someone picking their weight for an entire season (at the college level) specifically to wrestle someone. Maybe with Dake it's about Taylor, I tend to think that it's more the 4 different weight classes and Taylor is icing on the cake. I'm sure this got into Dake's head after he throttled Taylor over the summer.

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Calling BS on this one too. Owings wrestled 130 the year before he beat Gable at 142.

 

 

 

 

Yes, the day of the tourney he says he wants to face Gable in the finals.

 

I was in the husky room many times that year.....Owings absolutely was gunning for Gable. I personally watched him do "BEAT GABLE BEAT GABLE BEAT GABLE" push ups many times.

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dsnc, what is your point? Nobody knows precisely why Dake is at 165, and frankly, who cares? If you are making the argument that he is not at 157 because he can't make the weight, you are being ridiculous.

That's not what I'm saying. Of course he could go 157. He's a proven big cutter, and he certified at 157. I'm sure he is going after Taylor to some degree, and the 4th weight thing, but I also think he's enjoying not having to suck back down to 157. If Taylor and Caldwell had throttled him, he probably wouldn't have stayed at 165, but since that didn't happen, why bother cutting back down?

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Dake could make 157. He certified there. He's going up to prove something. I'll return to the original question - When the heck has this ever happened before? Its as if Dake is saying that winning the NCAA isn't good enough. Even more, winning 4 titles isn't good enough - he wants to make it harder on himself and put the returning Hodge winner in his path. Its ridiculously gutsy - and maybe a little insane. I can't remember anyone ever doing this, it'd be interesting if starts a trend. Will Steiber chase some stud at 149 in a couple years to make things more interesting?

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