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(PA, CA, NJ, OH) Will they ever have a female state qualifier or champion?

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Politics, politics, and more politics! If it were up to the sport of wrestling, the city sections would have been absorbed into the larger sections many decades ago, but it's not. The California Interscholastic Federation (ran by administrators) is the governing body that manages the state level competitions for both men's and women's sports. Providing each of the ten sections an opportunity to be represented at the CIF State Championships is among the CIF's top priorities and to convince them otherwise is an uphill battle, regardless of decades worth of data showing zeros. The following is this year's stats for the Oakland and San Francisco Sections at the CIF State Championships:

 

San Francisco City Section (SF)

- Weight Groups represented: 13/14 (93%)

- Schools represented: Balboa (2), Galileo (6), Lincoln (1), Lowell (3), Washington (1)

- Total matches won: 0/26 matches contested (0%)

- Total matches lost: 26/26 (100%)

- Total matches lost by pin: 21/26 (~81%)

- Total matches lost by TF: 2/26 (~8%)

- Total matches lost by MD: 2/26 (~8%)

- Total matches lost by decision: 1/26 (~4%)

 

Oakland City Section (O)

- Weight Groups represented: 12/14 (86%)

- Schools represented: Castlemont (4), McClymonds (1), Oakland (2), Oakland Tech (1), Skyline (4)

- Total matches won: 1 out of 25 contested (4%): dec. 7-5 in consolation round (285s)

- Total matches lost: 24/25 (96%)

- Total matches lost by pin: 20/25 (80%)

- Total matches lost by TF: 1/25 (4%)

- Total matches lost by MD: 1/25 (4%)

- Total matches lost by decision: 2/25 (8%)

 

The above is the "norm" not the exception, each and every year. The Los Angeles City Section on the other hand has gone from around 7 schools to over 40 in the last decade, and more recently has seen several kids place at state meet. Pending the CIF were to provide a "thumbs up" to this proposal, the sections likely to get the additional three qualifiers would be the southern and central sections...their stats speak volumes.

 

On a side note Al, what would you think about an East meets West 16 man tournament every season right after the official season begins? I have been curious about suggesting a rotating tournament that can pit the CA boys versus the OH boys which can rotate each season to different locations (ie: Cleveland to LA or Sacramento to Cincinnati). Something like the Big Ten/ACC Challenge. The logistics would take awhile to work out but it may be something that could bring both excitement and a lot of attention to the sport. It would also allow the kids to get more attention right off the bat when the season begins. 

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Politics, politics, and more politics! If it were up to the sport of wrestling, the city sections would have been absorbed into the larger sections many decades ago, but it's not. The California Interscholastic Federation (ran by administrators) is the governing body that manages the state level competitions for both men's and women's sports. Providing each of the ten sections an opportunity to be represented at the CIF State Championships is among the CIF's top priorities and to convince them otherwise is an uphill battle, regardless of decades worth of data showing zeros. The following is this year's stats for the Oakland and San Francisco Sections at the CIF State Championships:

 

San Francisco City Section (SF)

- Weight Groups represented: 13/14 (93%)

- Schools represented: Balboa (2), Galileo (6), Lincoln (1), Lowell (3), Washington (1)

- Total matches won: 0/26 matches contested (0%)

- Total matches lost: 26/26 (100%)

- Total matches lost by pin: 21/26 (~81%)

- Total matches lost by TF: 2/26 (~8%)

- Total matches lost by MD: 2/26 (~8%)

- Total matches lost by decision: 1/26 (~4%)

 

Oakland City Section (O)

- Weight Groups represented: 12/14 (86%)

- Schools represented: Castlemont (4), McClymonds (1), Oakland (2), Oakland Tech (1), Skyline (4)

- Total matches won: 1 out of 25 contested (4%): dec. 7-5 in consolation round (285s)

- Total matches lost: 24/25 (96%)

- Total matches lost by pin: 20/25 (80%)

- Total matches lost by TF: 1/25 (4%)

- Total matches lost by MD: 1/25 (4%)

- Total matches lost by decision: 2/25 (8%)

 

The above is the "norm" not the exception, each and every year. The Los Angeles City Section on the other hand has gone from around 7 schools to over 40 in the last decade, and more recently has seen several kids place at state meet. Pending the CIF were to provide a "thumbs up" to this proposal, the sections likely to get the additional three qualifiers would be the southern and central sections...their stats speak volumes.

Why do the SF & Oakland sections even exist?  SF only has 17 schools and Oakland only has 20, so even in sports in which they field more teams it doesn't make sense for them to be independent sections. 

I understand LA being a section own, they have about 140 schools.

 

 

In regards to the LA Section being absorbed by the Southern section, how much of the resistance is because of the resulting section will be so enormous?  Is this proposal just for wrestling or are other sports included?

 

 

 

The division of the CA sections has always seemed odd to me, the way the sections are divided around the bay area:  Vallejo is in the Sac Joaquin section yet schools south of them in Concord and down in Livermore are in the North Coast section. 

Why are Crescent City and Livermore in the same section? 

I remember seeing an old football conference championship trophy - El Dorado High (the one in the Sierra Nevada foothills) and Armijo High School (Fairfield) were in the same conference!??!  They're 85 miles apart. 

 

 

Shoud float a proposal that has the city sections absorbed by other sections, peel some counties off of the Southern Section then divide it in two and dissolve the north coast section - merge the northern part with the North Section and eastern bay area goes with central coast or sac joaquin. 

Then duck for cover as heads explode.

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Again, very informative post. In the case you weren't already aware your state tournament is highly regarded outside your state. Now if only we could get Clovis and Buchanan to come to Ironman while we send a few schools to your DocB.

 

To my understand some plans are underway to copy your model for our state tournament to bid for the year 2019. There are some contractual issues that need to expire before it could take effect such as current state tournament location but it has been widely agreed upon, for a long time now, that we should go to a single tournament format. The only issue has been location since some want a rotating location and others prefer a centralized locale. How is that working out for you guys to have the tournament right in the midsection of your state every season? Any complaints?

 

Anyhow, yeah, I could definitely see why it would be fairly aggravating to have some paper pushers who likely know nothing about the sport dictating things such as that. Given the stats from the Oakland and SF sections there is just no reason they should still be in play. That just doesn't give the best 32 wrestlers in your state the best chance and comes off as some hand out bid when the other kids are going through so many weeks just to get a spot. 

The California State Championships is a very humbling experience for a majority that have had the opportunity to compete in during their respective prep careers, but not get past the round of 12 to stand on the medal platform of eight. The one thing that makes the post season experience so tough for the kids in California is the month long process "aka, the grind" to earn a very hard fought state medal. For instance, the CIF Southern Section wrestlers (350 to 400 schools) have to qualify via their area leagues (most likely an 8 to 12 man bracket), CIF Divisional (32 man bracket), Masters Meet (32 man bracket known as the Meat Grinder), and then to Bakersfield for the state championships (40 man bracket). The CIF Central Section is a lot smaller with approximately 90 schools, but packs a heavy punch with the likes of Clovis, Buchanan, Clovis West, Bakersfield, and Selma in the mix. These kids have to qualify via their leagues, divisional (Yosemite and Sequoia divisions), and Masters Meet "aka, the Valley." Although the bracket sizes are much smaller than the Southern Section, the quality of competition during the qualifiers reminds me of the Big 10 for college wrestling. It's not uncommon for a kid to place 3rd in league, 5th or 6th in their divisional, 3rd at Valley, and then win state (very narrow gap between the top tier wrestlers). Per capita, the Central Section is among the toughest areas of wrestling in the country. Other sections, such as the Sac-Joaquin, Northern, and San Diego qualify via their leagues, sub-sections, Masters, and then to state (all competitive sections). The North Coast and Central Coast Sections qualify via their leagues, sections (32 man bracket) and then to state; whereas, the city sections (Oakland and San Francisco) qualify straight from league (5 to 8 schools each). I believe the Los Angeles City (approximately 40 schools) qualifies from their leagues, Section, and state (growing section).

 

In summary, the California State Championships is a representation of the state’s cream of the crop and the gap between placing in the top 8 and those that fail to get past the round of 16 and 12 is only by a slim margin. For example, it’s not uncommon for a kid to lose a double overtime match in the round of 16 and fail to place, but the wrestler that won that match make the finals or place in the top 4. A large percentage of the wrestlers losing in the round of 12 “blood round” are more than capable of medaling on any given day (many have beaten eventual medalist during the regular and post season qualifiers). The BIG negative is the harsh reality that so many quality wrestlers fail to ever earn a state medal.   

Edited by Coach_Al

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On a side note Al, what would you think about an East meets West 16 man tournament every season right after the official season begins? I have been curious about suggesting a rotating tournament that can pit the CA boys versus the OH boys which can rotate each season to different locations (ie: Cleveland to LA or Sacramento to Cincinnati). Something like the Big Ten/ACC Challenge. The logistics would take awhile to work out but it may be something that could bring both excitement and a lot of attention to the sport. It would also allow the kids to get more attention right off the bat when the season begins. 

This is a great idea, but conducting it early in the season would likely result in California not assembling a team representing our top tier kids. The football season extends into early December for those programs lucky enough to make it to the CIF State Champions and many of our elite wrestlers attend the Walsh Ironman during the same month. Making two trips back east would be very expensive for our kids. Worth discussing further though...

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The CIF Central Section is a lot smaller with approximately 90 schools, but packs a heavy punch with the likes of Clovis, Buchanan, Clovis West, Bakersfield, and Selma in the mix. These kids have to qualify via their leagues, divisional (Yosemite and Sequoia divisions), and Masters Meet "aka, the Valley." Although the bracket sizes are much smaller than the Southern Section, the quality of competition during the qualifiers reminds me of the Big 10 for college wrestling. It's not uncommon for a kid to place 3rd in league, 5th or 6th in their divisional, 3rd at Valley, and then win state (very narrow gap between the top tier wrestlers). 

Coach_Al, not doubting that the Cali tourney is a meat grinder and placing/winning it is a big deal, but I'd be curious how many times the above scenario has played out. Can you give a few examples? Thanks

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Coach_Al, not doubting that the Cali tourney is a meat grinder and placing/winning it is a big deal, but I'd be curious how many times the above scenario has played out. Can you give a few examples? Thanks

The following are a few examples:

 

126 - David Campbell - Mission Oak HS (CS)

1st East Yosemite League

6th Yosemite Valley Div.

3rd Central Section - Masters

CIF State Champion

 

106 – Eric Rivera – Clovis North (CS)

2nd TRAC Leage

2nd Yosemite Valley Division

3rd CIF Central Section Masters

3rd CIF State Championships

 

106 – Izzak Olejnik – Bakersfield (CS)

1st SW Yosemite League

4th Yosemite Valley Division

8th CIF Central Section

5th CIF State Championships

 

120 – Robert Garcia IV – Selma (CS)

2nd Central Sequoia League

1st Sequoia Sierra Valley Division

5th CIF Central Section

3rd CIF State Championships

 

138 – Joel Romero – Buchanan (CS)

2nd TRAC League

2nd Yosemite Valley Division

5th CIF Central Section

3rd CIF State Championships

 

138 – Bobby Miguel – Clovis West (CS)

3rd TRAC League

3rd Yosemite Valley Division

4th CIF Central Section

5th CIF State Championships

 

220 – Tyler Collier – Clovis (CS)

3rd TRAC League

2nd Yosemite Valley Division

4th CIF Central Section

3rd CIF State Champions

 

In short, the CIF Central Section is a highly competitive area of California. The city of Clovis fielded two nationally ranked teams (top 10) in Clovis and Buchanan, each only a few miles apart. The Tri-Rivers Athletic Conference (TRAC League) is NAILS! It includes Clovis, Buchanan, Clovis West, Clovis East, Clovis North, and Central High Schools. These kids are battling at the state and national level on a weekly basis. Many of the JV squads would be varsity teams in other areas.

Edited by Coach_Al

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i wonder how any of our Olympic Representatives did in high school...Maroulis or some of the other top women.

Maroulis placed 6th at Maryland states as a 10th grader at 106 lbs (the MD 3A/4A Division, which is for large schools). She placed 6th in the state again as an 11th grader at 113 lbers. She left her HS team to train in the mid-west with a special female freestyle program. She was going to be a contender her senior year, maybe not win..but since she'd have likely stayed at 113, she would have likely finished in the top 3.

 

That's Maryland...not PA, OH, CA, NJ...but should would have had a good shot at being a state qualifier in those states as a senior.

 

She is significantly better now than when she was in high school...so it would be an interesting match, to see her vs. some of the state champs today at her weight. My guess is that Spencer Lee beats her, but she would beat her fair share of state champs today.

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I watched her wrestle at this tournament. She was in 7th grade at the time. I think she could've potentially placed at 105 in almost any state.  

 

105

1st      Dylan Alton                           Lock Haven, PA

2nd    CJ Cobb                                  Williamstown, 

3rd     Ed Shupe                                Philadelphia, PA

4th     Helen Maroulis                      Rockville, MD

5th     Kevin Matyas                        Johnson City, NY

6th     David Lucykanish                  Lehighton, PA

7th     Nam Dunbar                           Arlington, VA

8th     Jonathan Glennon                  Ithaca, NY

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I watched her wrestle at this tournament. She was in 7th grade at the time. I think she could've potentially placed at 105 in almost any state.  

 

105

1st      Dylan Alton                           Lock Haven, PA

2nd    CJ Cobb                                  Williamstown, 

3rd     Ed Shupe                                Philadelphia, PA

4th     Helen Maroulis                      Rockville, MD

5th     Kevin Matyas                        Johnson City, NY

6th     David Lucykanish                  Lehighton, PA

7th     Nam Dunbar                           Arlington, VA

8th     Jonathan Glennon                  Ithaca, NY

Pennsy,

 

I disagree.  I have coached one girl in my life, who was dominating some boys (not the elite) when she was 10/11/12.

The difference kicks in when the boys hit puberty, and the physical gap simply becomes too much regardless of skill set.

 

By the time they're 15/16, these girls would get hurt on the mat with good male wrestlers.

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I watched her wrestle at this tournament. She was in 7th grade at the time. I think she could've potentially placed at 105 in almost any state.  

 

105

1st      Dylan Alton                           Lock Haven, PA

2nd    CJ Cobb                                  Williamstown, 

3rd     Ed Shupe                                Philadelphia, PA

4th     Helen Maroulis                      Rockville, MD

5th     Kevin Matyas                        Johnson City, NY

6th     David Lucykanish                  Lehighton, PA

7th     Nam Dunbar                           Arlington, VA

8th     Jonathan Glennon                  Ithaca, NY

pennsyrules, by any chance was that a MAWA tournament? of no real bearing to the overall discussion, just curious. 

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Pennsy,

 

I disagree.  I have coached one girl in my life, who was dominating some boys (not the elite) when she was 10/11/12.

The difference kicks in when the boys hit puberty, and the physical gap simply becomes too much regardless of skill set.

 

By the time they're 15/16, these girls would get hurt on the mat with good male wrestlers.

 

 

I agree with this statement.

 

Over the last 15 years my kid wrestled a lot of the "Elite Women" wrestlers getting beat by some when he was in 10U or 12U but by 15U he was smoking them in every facet of the sport. He beat many of the national champs / placers and even two world team members. In fact he was able to dominate them so easily I always reminded him to be careful not to hurt them. 

 

 

Don't get me wrong I'm all for women wrestling, but to think there will be many who can be competitive in some of the meat-grinder states is wishful thinking. The difference between a 16 year old male and female (even one who trains all the time) is bigger than most people will admit. 

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