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J'Den Cox is better than Kyle Dake

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At this point going forward, Dake cannot even hang with J'den's jock strap, much less hang with him in an actual match. With the improvement J'den has shown in the past several weeks, their next match could get ugly, real quick for Dake.

Edited by greco_gilligan

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At this point going forward, Dake cannot even hang with J'den's jock strap, much less hang with him in an actual match. With the improvement J'den has shown in the past several weeks, their next match could get ugly, real quick for Dake.

I love Cox and he's got a genuine shot at a medal.  But let's not take too much out of an exhibition match where he's fully energized, up 15 pounds, and wrestling an opponent that doesn't have near as much motivation in the exhibition setting as J'Den.  Those factors make a big, big difference.  I hope he's really improved to the level that he can run away from guys like Jokar, but the match yesterday doesn't prove that.

Edited by maligned

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At this point going forward, Dake cannot even hang with J'den's jock strap, much less hang with him in an actual match. With the improvement J'den has shown in the past several weeks, their next match could get ugly, real quick for Dake.

Not an insider but I'm pretty sure Dake is thankful that his go-to move is not hanging with J'den jock strap.

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I love Cox and he's got a genuine shot at a medal. But let's not take too much out of an exhibition match where he's fully energized, up 15 pounds, and wrestling an opponent that doesn't have near as much motivation in the exhibition setting as J'Den. Those factors make a big, big difference. I hope he's really improved to the level that he can run away from guys like Joker, but the match yesterday doesn't prove that.

Just wait

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I'm not ready to say Cox is a better freestyler than Varner, Burroghs, Snyder, or Dlegnav.   I just don't see it. 

 

I meant no disrespect to Tervel; he is undoubtedly a phenomenal freestyler, and I love watching him wrestle.  The only reason I would count Cox above him is health.  Varner is an interesting case, but I think I would have to concede that he is a better freestyler than Cox for the time being.  Still, Cox jumping into discussion with these guys so fast is freaking amazing.

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It is always funny to read the posts of the pessimists and armchair analysts.  J'den is a great wrestler and has proved himself thus far.  The only person in his way at him being a 4 time NCAA champ won a world title after his first year of college.  I am one who just likes to hope and enjoy. What a fun event that was last night and J'den looked sharp. 

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Even if we are talking right at this moment I still put Tervel and Varner above Cox. I think Cox would have placed 3rd at 213. I would rank our p4p guys:  But next cycle Cox, Snyder and Burroughs will be an amazing 1, 2, 3 punch!

 

1. Burroughs

2/3. Snyder

3/2. Varner (A fresh Varner is a even with Snyder) Does he retire?

4. Tervel  He will retire after Olympics

5. Cox

6. Dake at 163

7. Taylor at 163

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Why do the weightclasses matter for dake and taylor when doing a p4p ranking. The fact that they can bump up and immediately challenge for a spot shows they deserve to be on a p4p list no matter which weight version of themselves. Also i think taylor/Dake now would destroy taylor/dake at 163

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Dake and Taylor are our 2 and 3 at 163.  They're very, very good, but they're 2 and 3.  Cox barely beat Dake.  I'm not saying he won't be great, but let's calm down and wait until Cox wins something at Worlds or the Oympics before we crown him.  He best asset right now is that he is massive for this weight and really tough to score on.  It'll be interesting to see if he can maintain this cut for the next few years (as his best freestyle wrestling is almost certainly in front of him).  If not, he could be a big 213.  

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His best asset his is size... have you watched him wrestle? Cox has some of the best positioning of any America, and can score from anywhere. I encourage you to further watch Jden and look his history up. Never has got the "best" training. (Eierman is one of the best if you ask some people) and never has had the best practice partners like Snyder of others have. Yet he has took it to everyone put in front of him. Now that he's on the team and has some great wrestlers to sharpen him and more coaching he is going to get better and better. I don't think there's a wrestler out there who's as elite as Jden yet still has so much potential left. He gets exponentially better all the time. He will win gold.

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Armdrag, we get all that. But let's not get too excited. Do you really see him beating Sadulaev, let alone winning gold? How often have we been really excited about our guys only to get a reality check when they wrestle that tough Russian or Iranian? 

 

Cox definitely has a lot of progression ahead, but the guy he beat at Beat the Streets was a far cry from the guys he'll have to beat to win gold. I would be doing jumping jacks from joy if he "just" got a bronze, as he would have outperformed everyone's expectations except maybe yours.

 

It's weeks til Rio, not years or months. All the training partners and coaches in the world aren't going to change Cox THAT much.

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I agree and can't dispute your point. It's just something with him for me that I feel it this year. I have watched Jden grow up so maybe I'm a little bias. But I've always thought "Man if you could just get the best guys in the room with him he'll become unstoppable" and it finally happened! But respect your logic, it makes sense. Hope I'm right though!

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I've watched him a lot.  I'll add good positioning to great size.  Good point.  I don't see a ton of varied offense. He won an NCAA title as a freshman on a stall call, got beat by Snyder last year, and then won it this year, with a very good takedown.   I'm just not ready to crown him, sorry.  I think a world medalist at that weight would take Dake/Taylor/and company fairly easily and that just didn't happen when they met.  I'm not sure he'd have beat Taylor.  Again, I guess we'll see in Rio.  

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2/3. Snyder

3/2. Varner (A fresh Varner is a even with Snyder) Does he retire?

 

In the last 12 months, there's a 5-1 record one way with a 23-7 cumulative score (19-3 outside of Jake's 4-4 win).  Granted, it was 2-1 and 4-4 the two times when they had the most equal footing, rest wise.  But there is no empirical evidence (I've posted lots and lots of evidence and examples on this) that there is any performance drop-off by the average challenge tournament winner in these types of best-of-3's.  

 

I think a balanced view of the two of them is this:

--They're very close, probably a little closer than the 23-7 spread suggests.  

--The one match Jake took, he scored a takedown he's NEVER scored against a world medal level guy and had to work so hard for that win that he could barely move after 1 minute of the next match.  And it's the only match he's scored a takedown in all 6 matches.  These facts make Snyder the favorite, even in a one-match environment.

--No matter how equal their footing in terms of rest, Snyder will always be a heavy favorite in a best-of-3, rapid-fire series because a gas tank is one of his strong suits and it is not one of Jake's.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again: having 3 big-time matches in 3 or 4 hours is part and parcel of a world-level event.  Jake has shown his performance dips when he has to come back on the mat quickly.  Snyder does not.  Again, I agree they're very, very close if they're both fully rested and wrestling ONLY ONE MATCH.  But that will never be the case, no matter who comes out of the challenge tournament, so Snyder will always be a clear favorite.

Edited by maligned

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Like you said the fresh matches were 4-4 and 2-1. How are they not even. And the 4-4 Varner win was not fresh-Varner beat him after coming through the mini tourney. The only tourney they competed against each Varner outplaced him. You can not give two equals any advantage like the two byes Snyder had at WTT AND OTT. That is a huge advantage especially when wrestling all in same day. But with that said of course Snyder is the favorite.  

Edited by PRyan2012

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Cox is so young and has so much potential. I'm excited about his future. Very few Americans have ever medaled while still in college. Very few Americans have made a world team while still in college. Cox hasn't redshirted so is the same level as John Smith after his sophomore year. Let's think about some of the world gold medalists we've had and ask what they could have done after three years of college (excepting Smith and Snyder): Brands, Brands, Monday, Varner, Neal. I think it's a tough pull to believe any of them would have medaled in the worlds after three years of college. Cox is way ahead of the game which means I like his odds for the future. 

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