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Cejudo

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The difference between mma and wrestling in term of injuries is simple. mma injuries are permanents.

 

One of my high school teammates who was a multiple time state champion has shoulder problems that will never go away.  He didn't even wrestle in college either.  I can think of many others I know from wrestling who have injuries that will never quite heal up or be the same.  MMA carries roughly the same risk, but it is true that the risk for a catastrophic brain injury is much higher because you're dealing with being punched or kicked in the face. 

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The Cejudo's way to win is called wrestling + grappling. He has also boxing experience but without ko power striking isn't the best weapon.

I'm surprise about his coaching staff. He needs the best in the business with top sparring partners.

He spent a lot of time at Evolve with multi time muay thai world champions...this is the mistake.

You can very well be a really good striker without KO power. He told the media his plan was to use the clinch and slowly wrestle Demetrious (he was confident he was going to dominate the clinch because of his wrestling background), he was caught by a knee on the midsection and that was it. Training Muay Thai at Evolve had nothing to do with it, he just wants to improve his MMA game, it's not like he wants to become a striker.

Edited by Axe_Spartan

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Cejudo was fighting one of the top 3, and arguably the best, pound for pound fighter on the face of the Earth.  There is simply no good way to prepare for the kind of laser precision aim and constant danger mighty mouse can get you in.  There is no strategy that he could have switched to at any point which would have made him any other than a huge underdog in this fight.  Saying that he shouldn't fight because the best there is laid him out seems like a stretch to me, but I wouldn't fault him at all for retiring at this point, having made a nice run at the title and probably a fair amount of dough along the way.

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You can very well be a really good striker without KO power. He told the media his plan was to use the clinch and slowly wrestle Demetrious (he was confident he was going to dominate the clinch because of his wrestling background), he was caught by a knee on the midsection and that was it. Training Muay Thai at Evolve had nothing to do with it, he just wants to improve his MMA game, it's not like he wants to become a striker.

Yes but if you haven't ko power the submission way is a priority. Nurmagomedov is a good example of successful wrestler with a very effective ground game. He is the best in his weight class...

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Not that it's any of your business, but no.  I think it's a stupid comment that you've based on a handful of experiences and has obviously shaped your bias against the sport.  As for whether it causes injuries or not, any combat sport does.  I've had more serious injuries from wrestling than I have from MMA, and since you apparently know me, you obviously know I've competed in both.  Any apology from you is going to be hollow.  You have your opinions, which are wrong and based on a few instances of people who live that way or whatever you want to call it.  Based on my experiences, since I don't know you, or if I do correct me, but I've seen very few instances of anything "gay" occurring in the MMA world. 

 

So what if Henry lost?  Are you going to take issue with people who cry after losing a wrestling match curled up and defeated because they don't like the fact they lost?  I can think of plenty of wrestlers who've done that.  Maybe they just should do something else since they apparently can't handle defeat or being embarrassed by losing. 

 

 

You're being intentionally obtuse, pretending you don't know brain injuries are far more severe than joint injuries.   You've also created a strawman for this  being about embarrassing losses, when the point i made is about devastating physical trauma, related, losses.    I've been to Arizona and oversaw workouts in your town.   Your gym, actually.   Ever hear of a  guy named Dewey Cooper?  Of course you have.  Mark Kerr?   I've seen you train.   Lots of heart and desire, no question there.   But because you haven't seen what I've seen., now it's not so?  

 

I can't tell you what the small time is like, but I can tell you at the highest levels, the MMA game is as dirty as boxing.   It's just something I don't wish for you, let alone our Olympic Champions.  Be glad you never made it.   It was down right heartbreaking to see Henry laying there, taking a beating.   I much would have rather seen him delivering a paid speaking for a fortune 500 company.   Or read about his recent real estate endeavors.  Fist fights inside a steel cage and getting annihilated inside of 3 minutes?   Any bum off the streets can do that.   

 

We know Henry wanted to do it.  No we don't think he was blackmailed into the UFC.    It's still a shame, no matter how dumb you may play.   You may have been thrilled to see it.   I wish I could wipe it from my memory.   

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I'm about as big of an MMA fan as I am a wrestling fan and follow it as closely, if not closer (a hell of a lot closer than I do international wrestling). Cejudo is a wrestler who can kind of box. Johnson is a complete MMA fighter. Cejudo never had a shot in hell at holding DJ down. DJ is an exceptional scrambler. Cejudo didn't not keep him on the mat not because he was afraid of submissions. DJ doesn't have a potent guard game. He didn't hold him down because he couldn't. DJ got butterfly guard, created distance, and neutralized any offense Cejudo could muster. It was a squash match at this point in Cejudo's career, plain and simple. He's not ready for DJ, or Benevidez, or even McCall at this stage of his development. Dodson would flatline him faster than DJ did. He needs time. He has a ton of potential on his wrestling ability alone but the rest of his game needs to develop before he can seriously contend for a title.

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The difference is brain injuries.

 

Outside of Goodridge (who I doubt you even know who he is based on this level of ignorance and most of his issues are from kickboxing anyway), please enlighten me as to all these MMA fighters with permanent brain injuries. I'll wait. 

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Outside of Goodridge (who I doubt you even know who he is based on this level of ignorance and most of his issues are from kickboxing anyway), please enlighten me as to all these MMA fighters with permanent brain injuries. I'll wait. 

It takes time (decades) for many of the effects of traumatic brain injury to reveal themselves.  Look at the NFL.

 

Taking lots of blows to the head is probably not a good idea for your health, long-term.  I doubt getting blood choked is good for you either.

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It takes time (decades) for many of the effects of traumatic brain injury to reveal themselves.  Look at the NFL.

 

Taking lots of blows to the head is probably not a good idea for your health, long-term.  I doubt getting blood choked is good for you either.

 

BJJ has been around for over a century. Submissions date back to pankration. Outside of someone intentionally holding a choke for too long, I've yet to EVER hear of an issue as a result of a blood choke. Obviously, getting punched in the face isn't good for you. But, the inherent risk is grossly exaggerated as it pertains to MMA. Outside of the Travis Fulton, Jeremy Horn, Shannon Ritch style journeymen, very, very few fighters actually have the number of fights to really deal that potential for long term damage; especially with the current movement that is moving away from live sparring to a more safe style of training (read up on Hendricks' position on this if you're unfamiliar). 

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And Trip,

 

look up guys like

 

Diego Sanchez, slurring his words

 

George Sullivan, memory loss

 

Junior Dos Santos, can't remember his championship fight against Cain Valasquez

 

Ronda Rousey, no memory of the bout she was destroyed in by Holly Holm, suicide thoughts

 

TJ Grant, reoccurring concussion symptoms

 

Gary Goodrich, diagnosed with dementia pugilistica

 

George St Pierre once eluded to sleeplessness, blurred vision, and a feeling of going crazy, in a post bout interview

 

Chuck Liddell several successive KO's where he had his toes stiffened and left postured up, while unconscious, slurs even when he's rarely sober.

 

Stephan Struve had to be pulled from a bout as he was overcome with anxiety.   He too has been put to sleep several times, inside the octagon.   

 

Joao Carvaho died a couple weeks ago from the beating he took inside the cage

 

Dada5000 was nearly killed in his MMA bout last month against street fighting legend, Kimbo Slice.  He was hospitalized for 3 weeks

 

 

 

This is the aspect of MMA I don't like and why I am disappointed Cejudo went this route.   The above, just off the top of my head, you could probably google 100 other examples, if you're not already keenly aware of this.   The Olympic champion is far too good for the barbaric spectacle of cage fighting.   That's my take.   That's my problem with it, and yes we know he wants to do it, we get it.   

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You're being intentionally obtuse, pretending you don't know brain injuries are far more severe than joint injuries.   You've also created a strawman for this  being about embarrassing losses, when the point i made is about devastating physical trauma, related, losses.    I've been to Arizona and oversaw workouts in your town.   Your gym, actually.   Ever hear of a  guy named Dewey Cooper?  Of course you have.  Mark Kerr?   I've seen you train.   Lots of heart and desire, no question there.   But because you haven't seen what I've seen., now it's not so?  

 

I can't tell you what the small time is like, but I can tell you at the highest levels, the MMA game is as dirty as boxing.   It's just something I don't wish for you, let alone our Olympic Champions.  Be glad you never made it.   It was down right heartbreaking to see Henry laying there, taking a beating.   I much would have rather seen him delivering a paid speaking for a fortune 500 company.   Or read about his recent real estate endeavors.  Fist fights inside a steel cage and getting annihilated inside of 3 minutes?   Any bum off the streets can do that.   

 

We know Henry wanted to do it.  No we don't think he was blackmailed into the UFC.    It's still a shame, no matter how dumb you may play.   You may have been thrilled to see it.   I wish I could wipe it from my memory.   

 

Yeah I know who Cooper is and way back in the day I trained a few times at Kerr's spot in Phoenix.  And yes head injuries are more serious than a knee or a shoulder, but I guess it depends what you consider serious or not.  Up until the last few years nobody really thought concussions were serious.  I hate to sound old fashioned, but the guys who I came up wrestling and doing MMA with I'm sure there were a lot of unknown concussions or other injuries.  Not that they didn't happen, but it just wasn't perceived as being a serious problem.  I've probably had a few that weren't diagnosed.  I'm almost positive I got one in an MMA fight in Mexico.  Of the guys who I remember who took MMA a step further, I don't think any of them have any real adverse medical problems.  Riggs is still competing and now given the scrutiny the promotions are under I don't think they'd let you compete unless they made damn sure you were OK.  Back in the pre sanctioned days though you're right, it was a free for all with not much emphasis on that kind of injury.  Times have changed, so I don't think any promotion wants the bad publicity of letting a guy fight who might end up dead in the cage.  One of the guys I was helping train got knocked out horribly last year and the Arizona Commission refused to let him fight again, not because of repeated knockouts, since he'd only been knocked out 3 times in 8 years, but because he basically didn't mind being punched in the head a lot, would gladly take 3 to get his 1.  The commission was really uncomfortable with him doing that, and adding to that was he flat out told one of the commissioners that he didn't care if he died in the cage.  But as far as I know even with the repeated head trauma, he's suffered no ill effects even though he's been in some absolute wars, and not with local tough guys, but guys who've been in UFC, Bellator, WSOF, etc.  Usually taking them to a decision, so it's not as if he was getting steamrolled really. 

 

If it hurts you to watch guys lose then don't watch.  People lose in all kinds of combat sports.  I've seen plenty of guys get hurt at grappling tournaments.  Hell I even saw Henry's brother hurt a guy (by accident) his senior year of wrestling.  They had to take the kid away on a stretcher.  Cejudo could do those other things, but he apparently doesn't want to or figures he can do something else athletically.  I don't see him playing in the NFL or anything, so if he is going to continue on and hope to make a living at it, MMA is basically it.  It's hard to watch guys you're a fan of lose, but you have to know that can happen in anything.  If you're a fan of Stephen Abas, do you think it was a good idea for him to try to wrestle for the spot in 2008 only to have Cejudo injure him further and beat him for the spot? 

 

Also I find it strange that I've only encountered maybe one guy who acted or was kind of somewhat open about his personal life in MMA, but you've apparently seen it a lot more times than I have.  Maybe I was just training at the right place?  I remember one guy used to come around and I'm pretty sure he was gay.  He never made me feel uncomfortable or anything, but oh well.  I figured if he'd ever tried to grab or touch anyone they'd have hurt him or something.  I don't think it's a widespread problem like you say it is.  It's definitely not indicative of the kinds of people in MMA. 

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You are cherry picking examples.  I am sure all of us remember people getting knocked out in the wrestling room too.  I remember the special "stormtrooper" headgear 2 of my teammates had to wear because of concussion problems.  I remember guys wearing masks to protect their broken noses or shattered orbital bones.  I remember a teammate posting on a mat return and destroying his arm.  I won't get into details but it was disgusting and he never wrestled again despite a promising start in college.  I remember seeing at least 2 other people taken off to the ambulance after unfortunate accidents (one going head first into a gymnasium wall a few feet out of bounds and the other with a neck injury following a brutal head and arm).  Wrestling is dangerous too.  

 

Dada5000 should not be included in any serious discussion regarding MMA.  He is a street brawler, not an athlete.  Struve's anxiety may or may not have anything to do with prior knockouts.  Some guys suffer from performance anxiety, and after a string of losses, he was fighting for his job.  GSP has stated multiple times that his problems were stress related.  The rigour of the promotion is allegedly what caused his problems.  Maybe you know something he doesn't.   He is not the first person to hate promoting fights though.  ROnda ROusey briefly considered suicide but there is absolutely no proof that had anything to do with concussion symptoms and more to do with self imposed expectations and a self image too influenced by what the media and promotion made her out to be.  Junior Dos Santos took an absolute beating.  I agree with you on that one.  Diego Sanchez made little sense at the start of his career.  The guy was and is nuts but he too, has taken some beatings.  That is his style though. I will give you one you failed to include: Josh Koscheck.  He has suffered some brutal knockouts.   

 

MMA is a great sport.  I can totally understand why someone would want to give it a shot regardless of the dangers.  It isn't exactly boxing and one can use wrestling effectively to prevent exchanges that lead to long term damage if they can impose their will.   Everyone wants to challenge themselves in different ways.  Clearly you don't get the appeal of MMA but that doesn't make it any less appealing to others who do.      

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Cletus -just curious-do you feel the same way about watching football, soccer, rugby, lacrosse, etc. ?  Because a guy standing in front of you can only hit you so hard, but the head trauma when you increase the number of high velocity moving pieces can be extreme.  I currently work with a girl who suffered 4 concussions between high school and college from playing volleyball. 

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BJJ has been around for over a century. Submissions date back to pankration. Outside of someone intentionally holding a choke for too long, I've yet to EVER hear of an issue as a result of a blood choke. Obviously, getting punched in the face isn't good for you. But, the inherent risk is grossly exaggerated as it pertains to MMA. Outside of the Travis Fulton, Jeremy Horn, Shannon Ritch style journeymen, very, very few fighters actually have the number of fights to really deal that potential for long term damage; especially with the current movement that is moving away from live sparring to a more safe style of training (read up on Hendricks' position on this if you're unfamiliar). 

If blood chokes led to an increased risk of dementia later in life, would we know?  How would we know?  Have there been randomized studies?  My thinking is that cutting off the flow of blood (oxygen) to your brain, to the point that you lose consciousness, is not good for your brain.  Is it as bad as a concussion?  How many times can you do it without suffering serious effects?  Who knows?

 

You referred to Hendricks.  Robbie Lawler stopped sparring for six years because he sustained a serious concussion in practice: http://mmajunkie.com/2014/12/ufc-181s-robbie-lawler-flourishes-after-rethinking-no-sparring-policy .  I've read that Brock Lesnar's training partners were not allowed to hit him in the head.  I'm sure there are others.  Obviously they were concerned about the damage they sustained in practice, not just competitions.  The problem is, if you are not taking punches and kicks to the head in practice, is that really effective training?

 

How many concussions can you sustain without having serious long-term damage?  There are no concrete answers here.  I do know this -- if I had to choose between lifelong joint problems and lifelong brain problems, I know what I would choose.

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Cletus -just curious-do you feel the same way about watching football, soccer, rugby, lacrosse, etc. ?  Because a guy standing in front of you can only hit you so hard, but the head trauma when you increase the number of high velocity moving pieces can be extreme.  I currently work with a girl who suffered 4 concussions between high school and college from playing volleyball. 

 

 

Football?  Soccer?  Rugby?   Lets be real.    

 

I am a giant fan of the gentlemen's sport of cricket.  I enjoy equestrian, wrestling, triathlon, track and field, swimming, and golf.   

 

The barbaric sports of punching people in the head, kicking them, spearing them, etc. I have little interest in.   Sure, I'll watch any sport on a Sunday afternoon (Gymnastics, ice skating, NACAR, etc.) what's the point?  

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