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WildTurkey44

Iowa/Msu Throwing puches?

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Hurricane could you please show the stills of the Msu wrestler throwing wild punches aswell? In all fairness to both wrestlers that is. DSJ is ussually calm cool and collected. It does indeed appear that Derek threw a jab. Did you do any research to see why Derek did that? Maybe it was a reaction to something Watts did previously. Nobody wants to show or even talk about what the Msu wrestlers did. Wonder why that is? Haters gonna hate!

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clearly the still show that Watts was pushing and shoving while well out of bounds. That was what started it. DSJ had no choice but to retaliate to the blatant shoving while well out of bounds and then almost got his ass whooped for it.

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Hurricane could you please show the stills of the Msu wrestler throwing wild punches aswell? In all fairness to both wrestlers that is. DSJ is ussually calm cool and collected. It does indeed appear that Derek threw a jab. Did you do any research to see why Derek did that? Maybe it was a reaction to something Watts did previously. Nobody wants to show or even talk about what the Msu wrestlers did. Wonder why that is? Haters gonna hate!

 

 

Pretty sure I mentioned the MSU wrestlers and their wrongdoings in almost every response.

This really isn't the issue, and there me be some haters in the thread. Seems like it's pretty equal to the guys in complete denial.

They might say for example that DSJ was defending himself from a late shove out of bounds, which by the way the same guys earlier said they appreciated that sort of style.

Yet when the MSU wrestler responds to the same late shoves out of bounds, Evans was completely innocent in his match.

Just so you can read it one more time..... the punches the MSU wrestlers threw had much more intent to do damage than the little hook DSJ threw.

There were six people that were all equally to blame imo in this little incident, and there is no sarcasm in "little". two from IA two from MSU and the two officials. We won't even get into the coaches.

I do realize that you acknowledged the jab, but could you please also acknowledge that some of your fellow fans are in denial here.

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I have watched both matches a couple of times now and St. John got frustrated when Watts got a take down. Watts started getting more confident and started pushing the pace. They were going out of bounds and St. John clipped him. In the Evan match Evan was frustrated the guy from MSU fled the mat during a takedown attempt and then started to put the hammer down on the kid from MSU. Evan raked his hand across the MSU kids face which I have seen before and would not have been a big deal if he had not immediately done it again with purpose.

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Watts did a good job considering he shouldn't be wrestling without an injury to the starter...DSJ is not tournament ready let alone dual meet ready...Iowa ducking the Midlands and Scuffle is not paying dividends...Looking forward to CHA!!!

 

P.S. The PSU "Train"!!!

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Hurricane could you please show the stills of the Msu wrestler throwing wild punches as well? In all fairness to both wrestlers that is. DSJ is ussually calm cool and collected. It does indeed appear that Derek threw a jab. Did you do any research to see why Derek did that? Maybe it was a reaction to something Watts did previously. Nobody wants to show or even talk about what the Msu wrestlers did. Wonder why that is? Haters gonna hate!

WildTurkey44, my interest was in seeing what caused Watts to start throwing all those punches. When I noticed it was because of one thrown by DSJ, I captured the stills relating to that. Also, keep in mind that some were denying that DSJ did anything at all, while no one's denied that Watts threw multiple punches. I think I may have counted as many as six, although a couple may have glanced off or missed altogether (it's hard to connect when the refs are restaining you).

 

As far as determining why DSJ apparently threw first, yes, I was interested in seeing if Watts did anything untoward right before that punch or earlier in the match. If he did, I wasn't able to pick up on it. But there were some quick flurries so it might be worthwhile for you or other interested parties to investigate further. While right now all the evidence points to DSJ as the instigator, new or previously overlooked facts could possibly prove otherwise. I'm certainly open to changing my position if such turns out to be the case.

 

I'd have to disagree with you that no one wants to talk about what the MSU wrestler did. I've seen several posts that say that both were in the wrong; DSJ for sneaking a quick one in, and Watts for overreacting with multiple punches.

 

But, as you say haters gonna hate. Someone's always trying to cause trouble, it seems. As a matter of fact, WildTurkey44, there's a guy over on the Hawk board named WildTurk who claims he's the one who started this thread just to stir the pot. Below's part of one of his posts and the link to the thread is here.

 

I thought you'd like to know because it seems like someone may have stolen your identity. :lol:

 


[highlight=#fff0b1]Originally posted by WildTurk:[/highlight]

[highlight=#fff0b1]...I stirred the pot and got a lot of negative response. In the thread I started [/highlight][highlight=#fff0b1]I[/highlight]

[highlight=#fff0b1]thought I sounded unbiased as to the guilty party's in the scuffle at the dual...[/highlight]

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uh oh.... Hurricane did his homework. Despite that the op was trolling(stirring) apparently, it doesn't change anything. Does explain why the thread still lives, they are still stirring it.

Yep, and some are obviously still be in denial. But actually, I think this whole thread is pretty funny!

A Hawk starts it to stir the pot, apparently thinking only MSU threw punches. Then, it's pointed out that DSJ instigated the fisticuffs at 157 by taking the first shot (and that Watts overreacted). Next the Hawks issue denials that DSJ did anything wrong. Some even add that MSU wasn't being criticized at all, despite the fact that many took Watts to task, as well.

 

When further evidence proves the case (to any reasonable person), some Hawks appear to modify

their positions. One, for example, acknowledges that DSJ was the instigator and said he definitely

did something in Watts' face. At least, you can have a reasonable conversation with someone like

that. Others, however, stick their heads in the sands and issue even more ridiculous denials than before. Some of them are quite comical. :)

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(Note: rossel3 wrote the below in response to silverback's post: "I thought both 157 pounders should have been DQed. And yes the ref's didn't handle this situation properly.")

 

-----

 

DSJ did nothing to warrant a DQ. The only thing he did that I could see was some minor mutual shoving as they went out of bounds at end of 1st.

 

Watts, on the other hand, seemed out of control, left jabbed DSJ a couple of times, and had the right cocked looking for the big one. He had to be calmed down by Minkel at the end of the first.

Apparently, your video skipped some intervening frames, Rossel. While it started off with mutual shoving (as shown in frame #1 below), the following frames show that DSJ was the instigator. (It was like a football play where the first guy takes a quick shot, but the second guy over-reacts and is perceived as starting the fracas.)

 

Mutual shoving as the wrestlers go OOB...

8401898505_a3cb08a989_m.jpg8409187556_ebe1205937_m.jpg

 

Watts' left foot is leaving the "cylinder"...

8402995696_76eb6fe858_m.jpg8409187486_909a1bc864_m.jpg

 

The ref can be seen raising his right arm

to stop the action. Watts releases DSJ's left

arm, and DSJ immediately draws it back...

8402996688_b88ee061bf_m.jpg8408093027_16d3bd986f_m.jpg

 

DSJ brings the left up towards Watts' chin...

8401907911_b10892b054_m.jpg8409187314_628e9661a0_m.jpg

 

DSJ appears to make contact to the left

side of Watts' jaw and/or chin...

8401909351_5fb4ab037d_m.jpg8408818438_d7989126dd_m.jpg

 

DSJ follows through with his "left hook"...

8403033546_c1a266814e_m.jpg8407725037_2cc6ae48b6_m.jpg

 

It wasn't until after the above frame that Watts retaliated. And even assuming that DSJ was "shoving" Watts, slapping an opponent in the face with a left-hooking motion is inviting fisticuffs. That said, I'd agree with you that Watts should have kept himself more composed. However, let's not pretend that DSJ was blameless, particularly in view of the fact that his OOB left-hook (whether punch or slap) is what provoked Watts' reaction.

-------

 

1. The ref is raising his right arm? Hurricane, the ref's hand stays below his waist in all your pictures. Fanning his fingers maybe?

 

2. You say Watts releases StJ's arm. That's your interpretation. From your images, it could just as credibly be said St J is releasing Watt's right forearm after frame 2. Then Watts proceeds to grab StJ's arm.

 

3. In summary, your video capture shows is two guys going out of bounds with their hands still on each other. Watt's right hand remains on StJ's left forearm and elbow, while Watt's left arm is on StJ's right shoulder.

 

4. One thing your video capture apparently missed, was StJ's mouth piece falling onto the mat while the shoving was going on, likely due to Watts shoving StJ's head. St J is shoving too, but imo, nothing too serious by either guy. There is no "left hook" as you call it. A mild face shove at worst. A left hook is a punch. StJ threw no punch.

 

5. What your video capture also left out is 3 closed fist swings by Watts at St J's head, including a left jab to the face. St J shows remarkable restraint, and does nothing except back away, pick up his mouthpiece and does not swing back.

 

6. Following that, you see 2 MSU coaches running out to try to calm the clearly out of control Watts down.

 

7. For anyone interested, watch the video before judging.

 

8. I realize that some, like Wire, don't need to. They are able to discern the Iowa is always guilty, no matter what the facts are. But for others, watch the close of the first period, and make up your own mind.

I agree with you 100% Rossel3 - with regard to #7 above; anyone interested should watch the video before judging. It's up an Flo now. Here's the link.

 

As to your other points, they consist of strawman arguments, faulty reasoning, erroneous assumptions, ad hominem attacks, and outright falsehoods. I numbered them in case I decide to respond to any of them later. I also added screen shots from the other camera to show the action from that point of view. These stills are just to the right of the original ones. Of course, they're not perfectly synchronized but they're fairly close. Two of them appear identical, but they're actually not. (You'll notice the only really observable difference in their corresponding frames is the position of Evans' arm. However, that arm is blocked from the other angle.)

 

If you ever decide to come back down to reality and acknowledge that the above shows more than just "a mild face shove at most" as you termed it, let me know. If not, perhaps you'd be kind enough to explain why the announcers called it a punch, as well as why the referee called DSJ for unsportsmanlike conduct (among many other questions your interpretation of the video raises).

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I have watched both matches a couple of times now and St. John got frustrated when Watts got a take down. Watts started getting more confident and started pushing the pace. They were going out of bounds and St. John clipped him. In the Evan match Evan was frustrated the guy from MSU fled the mat during a takedown attempt and then started to put the hammer down on the kid from MSU. Evan raked his hand across the MSU kids face which I have seen before and would not have been a big deal if he had not immediately done it again with purpose.

 

 

That's how I saw it. The ref was an idiot, particularly in the Evan's match, for 30 seconds he was fixated on a non-pin (not even close) and missed a few WWF face rakes by Evans. He also missed an illegal headlock that the MSU coaches pointed out.

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Here's my take on the DSJ and Watts punches: At :06 left in the first as they were both working heads, Watts digs in with his right fist that wasn't exactly a "thrown" punch, but more like a dig for an underarm that was to DSJ's mouth (DSJ's mouth guard pops out). It was like a slow motion punch. DSJ then retaliates with a quick left upper cut that makes some contact with Watts' chin. Things digress from there.

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Gotta love the "outrage" from the usual suspects:

 

Hurricane expertly dissecting some still frames ..."the ref is raising his arm" despite the hand being below his waist in every frame. But I will give you some credit Hurricane, admitting that Watts' reaction was "so extreme, it could be deemed the greater transgression." Yes, just just possibly.

 

Wire and Hurricane bringing up matches from years prior... Metcalf, DSJ allegedly doing bad things, thereby supporting the current condemnations.

 

And at the same time, Headshuck reminding us that bringing up a years prior Sanders stomping on Robles was not relevant, and "silly."

 

No matter what, if it's Iowa, some posters will take it to the max. Metcalf pressing his forearm down on D Schlatter's head becomes "infamous," while Metcalf getting repeatedly and intentionally knee'd in the face, leading to DQ of opponent gets little or no outrage from the Iowa haters.

 

Brands stepping out on mat. Some illegal hunting adventure. Iowa scheduling non d1 opponents. Iowa skipping nat'l duals. No matter what... some folks love to blow minor and relatively non events into something more.

 

It's a recurring theme.

 

:lol: What a whiner you are Rossel3. A Hawk started this thread just to stir the pot. Then you made the ridiculous claim that DSJ was only involved in some minor mutual shoving prior to Watts starting to throw punches. I merely pointed out that DSJ wasn't blameless in the incident as he instigated it with that sneaky left hand. That's hardly an expression of "outrage".

 

And I know you think you're being clever in pretending that I "dissected" some still frames in isolation. However, the fact is that I watched the video in several modes (slow motion, regular speed, freeze frame, etc) because I was interested in seeing what may have set Watts off. My descriptions of the frames were based on the actions I saw in the video.

 

Also, most everyone else who's expressed an opinion, says they saw essentially the same thing I did.

I think you and dback_5 may be the only ones still insisting that DSJ did absolutely nothing that could have possibly precipitated Watts' punches. (If so, you've fallen to a great depth indeed, Rossel.)

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Hurricane, as you are wont to do, you've falsely attributed words to me. I didn't insist "that DSJ did absolutely nothing."

 

If you'll reread your own nicely referenced numeration of my post for "future reference" #4. You'll see that I said there was shoving by each guy, and that DSJ could've given "a mild face shove at worst." Prior to that I'd said DSJ "did nothing to warrant a DQ," which is different, and I still believe that.

 

And, in your saner earlier post, you actually referred to DSJ's offense as "lazy... after the bell good round punch." So I think we're not that far apart, regarding the severity of DSJ's actions. Which is to say.... mild.

 

In your scenario, everything starts with DSJ. He was the "instigator" according to you. You've apparently not studied the video close enough. Look what happens before what you call DSJ's "left" or face shove. You'll see Watts pushing up on DSJ and DSJ's mouthpiece falls out. I think one could say things escalated from there. I'm not the only one who has commented on this. See Tony Rotundo's post.

 

Not sure if you chose to ignore that part of the video or perhaps you subconsciously filtered it out. And heaven forbid that you post some pictures of Watts throwing left jabs and right cross haymakers... that just wouldn't fit in with your anti-Iowa narrative.

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Here's my take on the DSJ and Watts punches: At :06 left in the first as they were both working heads, Watts digs in with his right fist that wasn't exactly a "thrown" punch, but more like a dig for an underarm that was to DSJ's mouth (DSJ's mouth guard pops out). It was like a slow motion punch. DSJ then retaliates with a quick left upper cut that makes some contact with Watts' chin. Things digress from there.

Interesting, I couldn't locate DSJ's mouthpiece until after he'd already punched Watts. Below's the frame where I first saw it, just before it hit the floor. Sounds like you were able to pick it up much earlier. Would you mind posting the frame where you first saw it? That could also help clarify your take on the situation. I'm not sure I understand what you mean (my bad, probably been looking at too many videos, LOL).

 

8409953475_52885b2a4f_z.jpg

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Hurricane could you please show the stills of the Msu wrestler throwing wild punches as well? In all fairness to both wrestlers that is. DSJ is ussually calm cool and collected. It does indeed appear that Derek threw a jab. Did you do any research to see why Derek did that? Maybe it was a reaction to something Watts did previously. Nobody wants to show or even talk about what the Msu wrestlers did. Wonder why that is? Haters gonna hate!

WildTurkey44, my interest was in seeing what caused Watts to start throwing all those punches. When I noticed it was because of one thrown by DSJ, I captured the stills relating to that. Also, keep in mind that some were denying that DSJ did anything at all, while no one's denied that Watts threw multiple punches. I think I may have counted as many as six, although a couple may have glanced off or missed altogether (it's hard to connect when the refs are restaining you).

 

As far as determining why DSJ apparently threw first, yes, I was interested in seeing if Watts did anything untoward right before that punch or earlier in the match. If he did, I wasn't able to pick up on it. But there were some quick flurries so it might be worthwhile for you or other interested parties to investigate further. While right now all the evidence points to DSJ as the instigator, new or previously overlooked facts could possibly prove otherwise. I'm certainly open to changing my position if such turns out to be the case.

 

I'd have to disagree with you that no one wants to talk about what the MSU wrestler did. I've seen several posts that say that both were in the wrong; DSJ for sneaking a quick one in, and Watts for overreacting with multiple punches.

 

But, as you say haters gonna hate. Someone's always trying to cause trouble, it seems. As a matter of fact, WildTurkey44, there's a guy over on the Hawk board named WildTurk who claims he's the one who started this thread just to stir the pot. Below's part of one of his posts and the link to the thread is here.

 

I thought you'd like to know because it seems like someone may have stolen your identity. :lol:

 


[highlight=#fff0b1]Originally posted by WildTurk:[/highlight]

[highlight=#fff0b1]...I stirred the pot and got a lot of negative response. In the thread I started [/highlight][highlight=#fff0b1]I[/highlight]

[highlight=#fff0b1]thought I sounded unbiased as to the guilty party's in the scuffle at the dual...[/highlight]

 

 

Another impenetrable wall of text.

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Hurricane, as you are wont to do, you've falsely attributed words to me. I didn't insist "that DSJ did absolutely nothing."

 

If you'll reread your own nicely referenced numeration of my post for "future reference" #4. You'll see that I said there was shoving by each guy, and that DSJ could've given "a mild face shove at worst." Prior to that I'd said DSJ "did nothing to warrant a DQ," which is different, and I still believe that.

 

And, in your saner earlier post, you actually referred to DSJ's offense as "lazy... after the bell good round punch." So I think we're not that far apart, regarding the severity of DSJ's actions. Which is to say.... mild.

 

In your scenario, everything starts with DSJ. He was the "instigator" according to you. You've apparently not studied the video close enough. Look what happens before what you call DSJ's "left" or face shove. You'll see Watts pushing up on DSJ and DSJ's mouthpiece falls out. I think one could say things escalated from there. I'm not the only one who has commented on this. See Tony Rotundo's post.

 

Not sure if you chose to ignore that part of the video or perhaps you subconsciously filtered it out. And heaven forbid that you post some pictures of Watts throwing left jabs and right cross haymakers... that just wouldn't fit in with your anti-Iowa narrative.

What? Watts threw left jabs and haymakers? I don't believe it, Rossel! I only saw one mild face shove:

 

8403614581_cd60e8190f_z.jpg

 

BTW, Rossel, you claimed earlier that two MSU coaches ran out to calm Watts down. However, only one coach ran out initially and he walked right past Watts, over to the referee and began yelling at him, while all the time pointing directly at DSJ. (See the guy with the bald spot above on the left.) What's up with that, Rossel?

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uh oh.... Hurricane did his homework. Despite that the op was trolling(stirring) apparently, it doesn't change anything. Does explain why the thread still lives, they are still stirring it.

Yep, and some are obviously still in denial. But actually, I think this whole thread is pretty funny!

A Hawk starts it to stir the pot, apparently thinking only MSU threw punches. Then, it's pointed out that DSJ instigated the fisticuffs at 157 by taking the first shot (and that Watts overreacted). Next the Hawks issue denials that DSJ did anything wrong. Some even add that MSU wasn't being criticized at all, despite the fact that many took Watts to task, as well.

 

When further evidence proves the case (to any reasonable person), some Hawks appear to modify

their positions. One, for example, acknowledges that DSJ was the instigator and said he definitely

did something in Watts' face. At least, you can have a reasonable conversation with someone like

that. Others, however, stick their heads in the sands and issue even more ridiculous denials than before. Some of them are quite comical. :)

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Hurricane i can understand where you are coming from, however i feel that you took my stirring the pot comment to far. Just to clarify "Stirring the pot" in this case simply meant i created a thread on themat.com to discuss and get feedback concerning the punches thrown at 57 and 74. I am sorry if you misconstrued that statement.

 

What is your response to the new evidence that shows Watts "slow motion pushing,punching, shoving" dsj in the face prior to the left jab by Derek? Who truly instigated the instigater? :D

 

Fyi i have had a lot of fun with this thread and i appreciate everyones contribution, good or bad. We all love college wrestling and i am thrilled to have fellow fans of the sport discuss it with me. Cheers to you all!

 

Remember to have a shot of Wildturkey today and KCCO!

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Yes, I am a DSJ fan, so I know what I post about this will be looked at with that in mind. It hoonestly appeared to me that what DSJ did with the little mini left hook appearing action was accidental. The MSU kid over-reacted a bit to a whole lot of nothing. DSJ did the classy thing, IMO, and walked straight away from the street brawl.

 

Head grabbing is part of the sport. To allow that to take you out of your game and lose control of what you are on the mat to do is a mistake.

 

 

OK - commence beating on me over this post. :)

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Hurricane i can understand where you are coming from, however i feel that you took my stirring the pot comment to far. Just to clarify "Stirring the pot" in this case simply meant i created a thread on themat.com to discuss and get feedback concerning the punches thrown at 57 and 74. I am sorry if you misconstrued that statement.

 

What is your response to the new evidence that shows Watts "slow motion pushing,punching, shoving" dsj in the face prior to the left jab by Derek? Who truly instigated the instigater? :D

 

Fyi i have had a lot of fun with this thread and i appreciate everyones contribution, good or bad. We all love college wrestling and i am thrilled to have fellow fans of the sport discuss it with me. Cheers to you all!

 

Remember to have a shot of Wildturkey today and KCCO!

Fair enough, as Wild Turkey is my favorite bourbon! From looking at the video, I didn't see anything I'd consider more than hard shoving while fighting for control. I never saw a striking motion and the other posters indicated it wasn't exactly a punch. Sounded somewhat like a hard crossface to me.

 

Now, I'd agree that shove likely prompted DSJ to punch Watts. However, the two incidents are too different in circumstances and degree to be a tit-for-tat situation. Traditionally, when two guys get into a fist-fight whoever "threw the first punch" is considered the instigator. A prior act by the other guy would have to be similarly aggressive in order to tip the scales and turn him into the instigator.

 

Good thread and I appreciate you acknowledging that it appeared to you that DSJ threw a jab. I'm interested in how and why fights start and unless we discuss what really happened, we won't learn much. (And the fact that DSJ threw first doesn't mean I consider him more blameworthy than Watts. We can't overlook the fact that he threw far more punches that DSJ.)

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OK, on my laptop I was not able to stop the video in the proper spots, it isn't powerful enough. On my Linux machine I watched the video and was able to get every frame. DSJ was (imo) responding to an uppercut from Watts. As I said before, it's irrelevant because both teams threw shots. It now appears though, that outside of a late push from DSJ earlier in the match this incident was started by MSU.

In the Evans match, both incidents out of bounds were instigated by late shoves from Evans, and in both cases the MSU wrestler went overboard and tackled Evans once and hit Evans with a right cross another time.

The other incident with the claw, has not changed in my opinion. There is no way anyone other than Evans himself knows whether there was intent.

 

Here is your still of Watts uppercut with a very blurry mouthpiece coming down.

 

image.jpg

image.jpg

image.jpg

image.jpg

image.jpg

 

If there still isn't enough evidence that both teams were guilty here, we may have to wait for a time machine and go back to see it in person. Probably still wouldn't stop some of you.

That's what the op was all about , why wasn't there some "real" punishment dished out here.

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