Iowa/Msu Throwing puches?

[pm-01 25]

In 79 or 80 I was wrestling a guy from Illinois who was head-butting and landing short swing upper cuts when we tied up.

 

In the second or third period I had enough. I stepped back and hit him with a right hand body shot followed with a quick right cross that dropped him. I was dq'd. F him.

 

And F those posting like Perry Mason. **** happens on the mat that screen shots, refs, and the crowd don't see.

[dback_5 0]

In 79 or 80 I was wrestling a guy from Illinois who was head-butting and landing short swing upper cuts when we tied up.

 

In the second or third period I had enough. I stepped back and hit him with a right hand body shot followed with a quick right cross that dropped him. I was dq'd. F him.

 

And F those posting like Perry Mason. **** happens on the mat that screen shots, refs, and the crowd don't see.

Hahaha.....Thats an awesome story. And, you are also correct that the refs and the goody 2 shoes dont realize what you mentioned above.

[lil_red 1]

After viewing multiple times it does appear the MSU wrestler popped DSJ first while fighting for the inside tie (position). DSJ quickly did the same thing with his uppercut punch. I don't have a dog in the fight either way. You really need to look but the MSU does pop DSJ first.

[OtisCampbell 94]

I was once in on a head on the inside single when a guy crapped his pants. Not only did I not punch him, He took a injury timeout and came back and beat me.

[OtisCampbell 94]

After viewing multiple times it does appear the MSU wrestler popped DSJ first while fighting for the inside tie (position). DSJ quickly did the same thing with his uppercut punch. I don't have a dog in the fight either way. You really need to look but the MSU does pop DSJ first.

He will know be known as Saint Derek John

[WildTurkey44 321]

Everyone in this thread that accused Saint Derek John of instigating the fight with a left hook should eat a little crow. .DSJ only threw on weak left jab in retalliation before absorbing a flurry of haymakers from Watts. Then Derek walked back to the center of the mat instead of responding.

 

Also Evans never threw a punch just absorbed a couple. He is guilty of punishing the crybaby with crossfaces while trying to secure the pin. i would have done the same thing.

 

So in conclusion Iowa threw a total of 1 punch to Msu's what 7 or 8? Interesting development!

[CTMopar 17]

Billy,

I was looking forward to that HWT bout...Inflated records won't get the job done(184 for example)...If J Rob comes out on crutches the HAWKS are in trouble!!!

 

After viewing multiple times it does appear the MSU wrestler popped DSJ first while fighting for the inside tie (position). DSJ quickly did the same thing with his uppercut punch. I don't have a dog in the fight either way. You really need to look but the MSU does pop DSJ first.

He will know be known as Saint Derek John

[HurricaneWrestling 1,123]

OK, on my laptop I was not able to stop the video in the proper spots, it isn't powerful enough. On my Linux machine I watched the video and was able to get every frame. DSJ was (imo) responding to an uppercut from Watts. As I said before, it's irrelevant because both teams threw shots. It now appears though, that outside of a late push from DSJ earlier in the match this incident was started by MSU.

In the Evans match, both incidents out of bounds were instigated by late shoves from Evans, and in both cases the MSU wrestler went overboard and tackled Evans once and hit Evans with a right cross another time.

The other incident with the claw, has not changed in my opinion. There is no way anyone other than Evans himself knows whether there was intent.

 

Here is your still of Watts uppercut with a very blurry mouthpiece coming down.

 

 

If there still isn't enough evidence that both teams were guilty here, we may have to wait for a time machine and go back to see it in person. Probably still wouldn't stop some of you.

That's what the op was all about , why wasn't there some "real" punishment dished out here.

Nice work - and a potential game changer, two-six.This reopens the whole issue in my mind. Playing devils advocate for a minute, let me ask you about two of your stills. (This isn't criticism, just trying to process things in my own mind.)

 

Still 1: How can we tell if that's a fist or a cupped hand? It's not as easy to make out fingers and knuckles on Watts as compared to DSJ (no offense intended to anyone).

 

Still 2: If Still #1 is an uppercut on its way, then this should be around the time it makes contact. However, Watts' body doesn't resemble a fighting stance, IMO. Should we be comfortable in concluding this image resembles a boxing stance more than just a hard shoving stance?

 

Those questions aside, you've been a consistent voice of reason and objectivity in this thread. Therefore, I'm changing my position to not knowing who instigated the fisticuffs in this incident - undetermined and under further review.

[DAA 15]

I hate to interject here especially when I never saw the fight(s) -- nor have I read most of the previous posts -- but I could swear that when I watched a couple of MSU matches last year at Iowa, this same sort of thing happened -- pushing and shoving off the mat, etc. (It was particularly embarrassing for me when it appeared that the Spartan wrestler was afraid to shoot the move on the mat -- but was willing to shoot and follow through 10 feet off the mat [i think] because he knew there it didn't count.)

 

Frankly, when I watched matches -- or participated in matches -- back in the "old" days (60's) I do not remember ever seeing -- in any match -- this (wrestling / fighting off the mat) happening -- Not one.

 

I'm just curious, I guess, because I seldom watch wrestling any more -- Is this restricted to Iowa and MSU -- or does it happen all over now? If it does, IMO, it's another sad commentary about wrestling. I wonder what coaches say to their wrestler(s) when they wrestle or fight off the mat. As far as I'm concerned, it's bush league and should be condemned immediately -- by all.

 

This is not to say I've seen it much myself. In fact I have watched some great matches recently -- guys executing great moves in the MIDDLE of the mat -- so I don't want to paint with too broad a brush -- just asking.

 

And if the answer is yes -- there is more wrestling -- and fighting -- off the mat -- does anybody want to offer an opinion as to why?

 

Best -

 

DA

[madcat11 436]

clearly the still show that Watts was pushing and shoving while well out of bounds. That was what started it. DSJ had no choice but to retaliate to the blatant shoving while well out of bounds and then almost got his ass whooped for it.

 

 

Haha what a hypocrite.

[two-six 1]

Hurricane, I don't know for certain that it was a uppercut, but in fairness if we (including myself) are going to call DSJ's shot a punch then these stills certainly show about as much evidence of Watts doing the same.

Frankly I'm tired of this thread, as we have still gotten nowhere. I don't want to see either team punished or suspended now (unlike some of these same posters did in "another thread involving psu") just that there should have been action taken then to gain control of the match.

 

This is also another example of why they have to nip this extra crap in the bud. No need for shoves out of bounds, and before anyone jumps on me again, throwing punches isn't an appropriate response to shoves out of bounds.

Hopefully we will have some other controversy soon because this thread is ridiculous now.

[rossel3 77]

Hurricane, as you are wont to do, you've falsely attributed words to me. I didn't insist "that DSJ did absolutely nothing."

 

If you'll reread your own nicely referenced numeration of my post for "future reference" #4. You'll see that I said there was shoving by each guy, and that DSJ could've given "a mild face shove at worst." Prior to that I'd said DSJ "did nothing to warrant a DQ," which is different, and I still believe that.

 

And, in your saner earlier post, you actually referred to DSJ's offense as "lazy... after the bell good round punch." So I think we're not that far apart, regarding the severity of DSJ's actions. Which is to say.... mild.

 

In your scenario, everything starts with DSJ. He was the "instigator" according to you. You've apparently not studied the video close enough. Look what happens before what you call DSJ's "left" or face shove. You'll see Watts pushing up on DSJ and DSJ's mouthpiece falls out. I think one could say things escalated from there. I'm not the only one who has commented on this. See Tony Rotundo's post.

 

Not sure if you chose to ignore that part of the video or perhaps you subconsciously filtered it out. And heaven forbid that you post some pictures of Watts throwing left jabs and right cross haymakers... that just wouldn't fit in with your anti-Iowa narrative.

What? Watts threw left jabs and haymakers? I don't believe it, Rossel! I only saw one mild face shove:

 

 

BTW, Rossel, you claimed earlier that two MSU coaches ran out to calm Watts down. However, only one coach ran out initially and he walked right past Watts, over to the referee and began yelling at him, while all the time pointing directly at DSJ. (See the guy with the bald spot above on the left.) What's up with that, Rossel?

 

 

-------

 

Indeed, it appears true that one of the MSU coaches, before turning toward Watts, does bark at the ref. Nice detective work, Sherlock.

 

You've amply examined a small branch. Now take a step back and try to observe the forest. ;)

[rossel3 77]

Hurricane, I don't know for certain that it was a uppercut, but in fairness if we (including myself) are going to call DSJ's shot a punch then these stills certainly show about as much evidence of Watts doing the same.

Frankly I'm tired of this thread, as we have still gotten nowhere. I don't want to see either team punished or suspended now (unlike some of these same posters did in "another thread involving psu") just that there should have been action taken then to gain control of the match.

 

This is also another example of why they have to nip this extra crap in the bud. No need for shoves out of bounds, and before anyone jumps on me again, throwing punches isn't an appropriate response to shoves out of bounds.

Hopefully we will have some other controversy soon because this thread is ridiculous now.

 

-----

 

I agree. This thread has pretty much run its course. With another round of matches coming up (e.g. Northwestern v MSU, PSU v Nebr, Iowa v Minn this weekend, it will fade soon enough, thankfully.

[Perry 1,429]

I hate to interject here especially when I never saw the fight(s) -- nor have I read most of the previous posts -- but I could swear that when I watched a couple of MSU matches last year at Iowa, this same sort of thing happened -- pushing and shoving off the mat, etc. (It was particularly embarrassing for me when it appeared that the Spartan wrestler was afraid to shoot the move on the mat -- but was willing to shoot and follow through 10 feet off the mat [i think] because he knew there it didn't count.)

 

Frankly, when I watched matches -- or participated in matches -- back in the "old" days (60's) I do not remember ever seeing -- in any match -- this (wrestling / fighting off the mat) happening -- Not one.

 

I'm just curious, I guess, because I seldom watch wrestling any more -- Is this restricted to Iowa and MSU -- or does it happen all over now? If it does, IMO, it's another sad commentary about wrestling. I wonder what coaches say to their wrestler(s) when they wrestle or fight off the mat. As far as I'm concerned, it's bush league and should be condemned immediately -- by all.

 

This is not to say I've seen it much myself. In fact I have watched some great matches recently -- guys executing great moves in the MIDDLE of the mat -- so I don't want to paint with too broad a brush -- just asking.

 

And if the answer is yes -- there is more wrestling -- and fighting -- off the mat -- does anybody want to offer an opinion as to why?

 

Best -

 

DA

 

 

I wouldn't say it's overly common, which is probably why this thread is getting so much attention. Sometimes things escalate though, and to be honest, Iowa is often the target of attention when it does occur (whether it's legit or not). I can't recall things getting escalated this far at a big stage tournament (Scuffle, Midlans, NCAA's, etc.), although I'm sure it does happen from time to time, it is a highly physical sport after all.

[HurricaneWrestling 1,123]

Hurricane, I don't know for certain that it was a uppercut, but in fairness if we (including myself) are going to call DSJ's shot a punch then these stills certainly show about as much evidence of Watts doing the same.

Frankly I'm tired of this thread, as we have still gotten nowhere. I don't want to see either team punished or suspended now (unlike some of these same posters did in "another thread involving psu") just that there should have been action taken then to gain control of the match.

 

This is also another example of why they have to nip this extra crap in the bud. No need for shoves out of bounds, and before anyone jumps on me again, throwing punches isn't an appropriate response to shoves out of bounds.

Hopefully we will have some other controversy soon because this thread is ridiculous now.

Yeah, it's turned into another thread where its difficult to have an honest discussion of what happened. Although I've seen only hard shoving by Watts so far, I've given DSJ the benefit of the doubt concerning who was the instigator. However, that's mainly because that term means different things to different people. I see it essentially as identifying who "threw the first punch," without sufficient provocation. However, others argue that if the punch was thrown in reaction to something the other guy did (even if far less aggressive), then the other guy caused the fight. For example, Rossel objected to DSJ earlier being called an insigator with this counter-argument:

[highlight=#efeed9]Look what happens before what you call DSJ's "left" or face shove. You'll see Watts pushing up on DSJ and DSJ's mouthpiece falls out. I think one could say things escalated from there.[/highlight]

However, identifying where things started escalating doesn't necessarily tell you who was the instigator in a fist fight. For example, lets say Wrestler "A" shoves Wrestler "B" out-of-bounds, over the scorer's table, and into the bleachers. Wrestler "B" then retaliates by punching "A". In that case, I'd say "A" instigated the fight. Now, let's say Wrestler "A" was only shoving hard as they went out-of-bounds, and then let up immediately. Could "B" then punch "A" in the face and still claim "A" instigated the fight? IMO, "no," although others apparently see that differently.

[dback_5 0]

I enjoy these threads. Lets be honest during down time there isnt much to talk about, and with Iowa involved you will get everybody out of the woodwork to take shots or defend. What we have surmised those is that Watts did in fact do extra shoving out of bounds which provoked Saint Derek to retailiate, and then vice versa

 

As far as Evans, the MSU kid may not have liked a few questionable shoves out of bounds, and then went off the deep end. Later in the match Evans was going for the fall, and unintentionally raked his face causing blood to run. Later the kid cried like a baby.

 

That pretty much sums this whole thread up

[headshuck 2,610]

See Mike scratch.

See blood flow.

Mike like.

Mike scratch again.

Run blood run.

[HurricaneWrestling 1,123]

 

-------

 

Indeed, it appears true that one of the MSU coaches, before turning toward Watts, does bark at the ref. Nice detective work, Sherlock.

 

You've amply examined a small branch. Now take a step back and try to observe the forest. ;)

Oh, I think I've observed the forest well enough. I'd say you'd be better served by following your own

advise. I'd also suggest you watch the video again, as you're still confused about what happened. ;)

 

A minor point, but since you couldn't resist the little Sherlock dig, let's be clear who first brought up the MSU coaches' reaction to the fight. It was you, Rossel, while arguing that DSJ never threw a punch (a delusion from which you apparently still suffer). Here's what you claim occurred after Watts had thrown three punches at DSJ:

 

[highlight=#ebeadd]Following that, you see 2 MSU coaches running out to try to calm the clearly out of control Watts down.[/highlight]

However, the video doesn't show it happened that way. Only one coach ran out initially, which you've now acknowledged. However, you also said he did that "before turning towards Watts." Apparently, you want to leave the impression that your claim of two coaches "running out to calm ... Watts down" is still essentially true. And that would be fine with me if that's what the first coach eventually did. But it never happened that way.

 

The first coach never turned towards Watts. He continued barking at the referee, while pointing most of the time directly at DSJ. All during the fight sequence, he never once tried to calm Watts down. Therefore, I think its pretty obvious that you're falsifying your story again to avoid the clear implications of that coach's actions. Obviously, he was raising hell with the referee and claiming DSJ started the fight by landing the first punch.

 

Below is a frame captured at the time they finally were getting things under control. The first MSU coach is still barking at the referee (which the videos also confirm). Minkel is the only MSU coach who ran over to calm Watts down. Minkel and Watts are both in this frame, but mostly obscured by the referees.

 

 

In conclusion, Rossel, I'd also suggest you drop your silly little pretense that certain posters go out of their way to express "outrage" at anything Iowa does. This thread was started by a Hawk who later said he "stirred the pot." And you contributed your share by continually insisting that DSJ gave Watts "a mild face push at worst." Hell, even the thread-starter eventually admitted there was indeed a punch.

 

And, when I said that DSJ threw the first punch, I also made it clear that Watts overreacted. In fact, I later added that if both wrestlers were sanctioned, "Watt's reaction was so extreme that it could be deemed the greater transgression." Nonetheless, you kept on with your petty bickering, suggesting that I "subconsciously filtered out...pictures of Watts throwing left jabs and right cross haymakers." And that I didn't post any of those images because that wouldn't fit in with an "anti-Iowa narrative."

 

What a joke you are, Rossel. The only pertinent difference of opinion we had was whether or not DSJ threw a punch. I said he did (even adding that it didn't seem to have a lot of steam on it). However, you stuck with your mantra that it was "a mild face push at worst." I posted stills pertinent to that difference of opinion. DSJ's punch was a sneak left, that wasn't very obvious. Watts' punches were apparent to everyone. And you and I never had any difference of opinion that Watts overreacted and threw multiple punches. We both had already made posts about that, but you still wanted to whine because I didn't post any images of Watts' punches. Hell, I even eventually put his best shot up there (the left jab) just to satisfy your crying. But, I got no "thank you" in return, just another petty insult.

 

In summary Rossel, I think the only one with a real agenda is you. Anytime an Iowa topic comes up, you go into "spin-doctor" mode. Heaven forbid that anyone make an observation, however accurate, that doesn't cast Iowa in the most favorable light possible. Hopefully this is the end of our conversation. However, if you want to continue it, please answer the following question first:

 

From all of the evidence currently available, which of the following best describes DSJ's actions:

 

[*:2cyjia1t]DSJ threw a punch at Watts that connected, although it may not have had a lot of steam on it.
[*:2cyjia1t]DSJ never threw a punch. His actions should be characterized as "a mild face shove at worst."

[HurricaneWrestling 1,123]

See Mike scratch.

See blood flow.

Mike like.

Mike scratch again.

Run blood run.

:lol: That's hilarious, headshuck!

[HurricaneWrestling 1,123]

Hurricane, I don't know for certain that it was a uppercut, but in fairness if we (including myself) are going to call DSJ's shot a punch then these stills certainly show about as much evidence of Watts doing the same.

Frankly I'm tired of this thread, as we have still gotten nowhere. I don't want to see either team punished or suspended now (unlike some of these same posters did in "another thread involving psu") just that there should have been action taken then to gain control of the match.

 

This is also another example of why they have to nip this extra crap in the bud. No need for shoves out of bounds, and before anyone jumps on me again, throwing punches isn't an appropriate response to shoves out of bounds.

Hopefully we will have some other controversy soon because this thread is ridiculous now.

Yeah, it's turned into another thread where its difficult to have an honest discussion of what happened. Although I've seen only hard shoving by Watts so far, I've given DSJ the benefit of the doubt concerning who was the instigator. However, that's mainly because that term means different things to different people. I see it essentially as identifying who "threw the first punch," without sufficient provocation. However, others argue that if the punch was thrown in reaction to something the other guy did (even if far less aggressive), then the other guy caused the fight. I'm not saying that's your position, as you see more evidence right noew than I do. However, Rossel for example, objected to DSJ earlier being called an insigator with this counter-argument:

[highlight=#efeed9]Look what happens before what you call DSJ's "left" or face shove. You'll see Watts pushing up on DSJ and DSJ's mouthpiece falls out. I think one could say things escalated from there.[/highlight]

However, identifying where things started escalating doesn't necessarily tell you who was the instigator in a fist fight. For example, lets say Wrestler "A" shoves Wrestler "B" out-of-bounds, over the scorer's table, and into the bleachers. Wrestler "B" then retaliates by punching "A". In that case, I'd say "A" instigated the fight. Now, let's say Wrestler "A" was only shoving hard as they went out-of-bounds, and then let up immediately. Could "B" then punch "A" in the face and still claim "A" instigated the fight? IMO, "no," although others apparently see that differently.

[dback_5 0]

 

-------

 

Indeed, it appears true that one of the MSU coaches, before turning toward Watts, does bark at the ref. Nice detective work, Sherlock.

 

You've amply examined a small branch. Now take a step back and try to observe the forest. ;)

Oh, I think I've observed the forest well enough. I'd say you'd be better served by following your own

advise. I'd also suggest you watch the video again, as you're still confused about what happened. ;)

 

A minor point, but since you couldn't resist the little Sherlock dig, let's be clear who first brought up the MSU coaches' reaction to the fight. It was you, Rossel, while arguing that DSJ never threw a punch (a delusion from which you apparently still suffer). Here's what you claim occurred after Watts had thrown three punches at DSJ:

 

[highlight=#ebeadd]Following that, you see 2 MSU coaches running out to try to calm the clearly out of control Watts down.[/highlight]

However, the video doesn't show it happened that way. Only one coach ran out initially, which you've now acknowledged. However, you also said he did that "before turning towards Watts." Apparently, you want to leave the impression that your claim of two coaches "running out to calm ... Watts down" is still essentially true. And that would be fine with me if that's what the first coach eventually did. But it never happened that way.

 

The first coach never turned towards Watts. He continued barking at the referee, while pointing most of the time directly at DSJ. All during the fight sequence, he never once tried to calm Watts down. Therefore, I think its pretty obvious that you're falsifying your story again to avoid the clear implications of that coach's actions. Obviously, he was raising hell with the referee and claiming DSJ started the fight by landing the first punch.

 

Below is a frame captured at the time they finally were getting things under control. The first MSU coach is still barking at the referee (which the videos also confirm). Minkel is the only MSU coach who ran over to calm Watts down. Minkel and Watts are both in this frame, but mostly obscured by the referees.

 

 

In conclusion, Rossel, I'd also suggest you drop your silly little pretense that certain posters go out of their way to express "outrage" at anything Iowa does. This thread was started by a Hawk who later said he "stirred the pot." And you contributed your share by continually insisting that DSJ gave Watts "a mild face push at worst." Hell, even the thread-starter eventually admitted there was indeed a punch.

 

And, when I said that DSJ threw the first punch, I also made it clear that Watts overreacted. In fact, I later added that if both wrestlers were sanctioned, "Watt's reaction was so extreme that it could be deemed the greater transgression." Nonetheless, you kept on with your petty bickering, suggesting that I "subconsciously filtered out...pictures of Watts throwing left jabs and right cross haymakers." And that I didn't post any of those images because that wouldn't fit in with an "anti-Iowa narrative."

 

What a joke you are, Rossel. The only pertinent difference of opinion we had was whether or not DSJ threw a punch. I said he did (even adding that it didn't seem to have a lot of steam on it). However, you stuck with your mantra that it was "a mild face push at worst." I posted stills pertinent to that difference of opinion. DSJ's punch was a sneak left, that wasn't very obvious. Watts' punches were apparent to everyone. And you and I never had any difference of opinion that Watts overreacted and threw multiple punches. We both had already made posts about that, but you still wanted to whine because I didn't post any images of Watts' punches. Hell, I even eventually put his best shot up there (the left jab) just to satisfy your crying. But, I got no "thank you" in return, just another petty insult.

 

In summary Rossel, I think the only one with a real agenda is you. Anytime an Iowa topic comes up, you go into "spin-doctor" mode. Heaven forbid that anyone make an observation, however accurate, that doesn't cast Iowa in the most favorable light possible. Hopefully this is the end of our conversation. However, if you want to continue it, please answer the following question first:

 

From all of the evidence currently available, which of the following best describes DSJ's actions:

 

[*:13o7pyot]DSJ threw a punch at Watts that connected, although it may not have had a lot of steam on it.
[*:13o7pyot]DSJ never threw a punch. His actions should be characterized as "a mild face shove at worst."

Are you kidding me Hurricane? You need to settle down on the long winded responses. Just because you write a lot of jibberish doesnt mean that you sway peoples opinion. I could write a long essay as well, but want to save people their valuable time.

[HurricaneWrestling 1,123]

Are you kidding me Hurricane? You need to settle down on the long winded responses. Just because you write a lot of jibberish doesnt mean that you sway peoples opinion. I could write a long essay as well, but want to save people their valuable time.

Wasn't intended for you, dback. It's a reply to Rossel about some ad hominem attacks.

 

Say, if you're really concerned about long posts, why'd you reply to the entire message? That just displays it again. You could've cut out nonessential stuff and still replied (as I'm doing here.) Anyway, I apologize for wasting your "valuable" time. Please remember you can always skip posts or use the "ignore" function. The latter tells you who posted, but nothing else is displayed (unless you click on "display"). That's what I do when someone gets a little too annoying. For example, if you reply to this message, I'll see only this: This post was made by dback_5 who is currently on your ignore list.

[AKHUNTER 316]

with no dog in this fight.... there was enough blame to go around in both the 157 and 174 matches. That being said in both matches the MSU wrestlers threw HAYMAKERS, tho missing, and should have been dq'd imo.

[rossel3 77]

 

-------

 

Indeed, it appears true that one of the MSU coaches, before turning toward Watts, does bark at the ref. Nice detective work, Sherlock.

 

You've amply examined a small branch. Now take a step back and try to observe the forest. ;)

Oh, I think I've observed the forest well enough. I'd say you'd be better served by following your own

advise. I'd also suggest you watch the video again, as you're still confused about what happened. ;)

 

A minor point, but since you couldn't resist the little Sherlock dig, let's be clear who first brought up the MSU coaches' reaction to the fight. It was you, Rossel, while arguing that DSJ never threw a punch (a delusion from which you apparently still suffer). Here's what you claim occurred after Watts had thrown three punches at DSJ:

 

[highlight=#ebeadd]Following that, you see 2 MSU coaches running out to try to calm the clearly out of control Watts down.[/highlight]

However, the video doesn't show it happened that way. Only one coach ran out initially, which you've now acknowledged. However, you also said he did that "before turning towards Watts." Apparently, you want to leave the impression that your claim of two coaches "running out to calm ... Watts down" is still essentially true. And that would be fine with me if that's what the first coach eventually did. But it never happened that way.

 

The first coach never turned towards Watts. He continued barking at the referee, while pointing most of the time directly at DSJ. All during the fight sequence, he never once tried to calm Watts down. Therefore, I think its pretty obvious that you're falsifying your story again to avoid the clear implications of that coach's actions. Obviously, he was raising hell with the referee and claiming DSJ started the fight by landing the first punch.

 

Below is a frame captured at the time they finally were getting things under control. The first MSU coach is still barking at the referee (which the videos also confirm). Minkel is the only MSU coach who ran over to calm Watts down. Minkel and Watts are both in this frame, but mostly obscured by the referees.

 

 

In conclusion, Rossel, I'd also suggest you drop your silly little pretense that certain posters go out of their way to express "outrage" at anything Iowa does. This thread was started by a Hawk who later said he "stirred the pot." And you contributed your share by continually insisting that DSJ gave Watts "a mild face push at worst." Hell, even the thread-starter eventually admitted there was indeed a punch.

 

And, when I said that DSJ threw the first punch, I also made it clear that Watts overreacted. In fact, I later added that if both wrestlers were sanctioned, "Watt's reaction was so extreme that it could be deemed the greater transgression." Nonetheless, you kept on with your petty bickering, suggesting that I "subconsciously filtered out...pictures of Watts throwing left jabs and right cross haymakers." And that I didn't post any of those images because that wouldn't fit in with an "anti-Iowa narrative."

 

What a joke you are, Rossel. The only pertinent difference of opinion we had was whether or not DSJ threw a punch. I said he did (even adding that it didn't seem to have a lot of steam on it). However, you stuck with your mantra that it was "a mild face push at worst." I posted stills pertinent to that difference of opinion. DSJ's punch was a sneak left, that wasn't very obvious. Watts' punches were apparent to everyone. And you and I never had any difference of opinion that Watts overreacted and threw multiple punches. We both had already made posts about that, but you still wanted to whine because I didn't post any images of Watts' punches. Hell, I even eventually put his best shot up there (the left jab) just to satisfy your crying. But, I got no "thank you" in return, just another petty insult.

 

In summary Rossel, I think the only one with a real agenda is you. Anytime an Iowa topic comes up, you go into "spin-doctor" mode. Heaven forbid that anyone make an observation, however accurate, that doesn't cast Iowa in the most favorable light possible. Hopefully this is the end of our conversation. However, if you want to continue it, please answer the following question first:

 

From all of the evidence currently available, which of the following best describes DSJ's actions:

 

[*:15jl2zu8]DSJ threw a punch at Watts that connected, although it may not have had a lot of steam on it.
[*:15jl2zu8]DSJ never threw a punch. His actions should be characterized as "a mild face shove at worst."

 

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*yawn*

 

dude.... have you had your Ritalin level checked recently? You may need your dose adjusted.

[leshismore 216]

DSJ is not innocent here. He punched the guy from Michigan and he punched the Michigan State kid in back to back matches, both of them when his opponent gave a little "Iowa-style" OOB shove.

 

I really don't have a huge problem with it but don't act like this is a one-time thing for DSJ. He did it twice in 3 days.

I like it. The guy has fire and the will to be great.

What a tough guy you are. Real class and character. Douche.