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Congratulations to Helen!

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Just reading what the article say, it makes me angry. Her rushing back just seems totally irresponsible — and the people around her seem irresponsible as well.

 

I have limited info and I am no doctor ... but it seems she needs better people around her rather than those that let her push into wrestling so quickly during that series in India and now.

 

It seems to be a horrible example to set for others and young folks. An over abundance of caution should be used.

 

Again, just know what I read in the article. Would welcome other perspectives and facts.

 

Sad and angry .... does USA wrestling have any say? Suppose if doctor says she is good to go ... they don’t. Curious to hear what her doctor is saying.

 

Scary.

When it comes to the brain, and concussions, the doctors don't know as much as you would hope they do. The extreme light sensitivity is a really bad sign. As is needing to avoid outside stimuli. That it took 4 months to clear is also a really bad sign. Doctors don't have a good handle on this. Doctors gave up on my kid. Her functions came back little by little over time. The loss of some IQ, and the personality changes are permanent. The military and its doctors seem to have the best grasp on on various Traumatic Brain Injuries, which is what a concussion is. It is filtering down to the medical community at large but neurologists as a group, especially at the better medical centers, are fairly arrogant, and don't take to new information they didn't come up with themselves

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I remember my son winning his first two bouts at Fargo and then being on the wrong end of a nasty suplex in round three.  He hit the mat, got up, and walked into the circle on the adjoining mat ready to go.  Having sustained several severe concussions in the day, I knew what the long-term consequences might be.  Coaches wanted him to keep going but there has to be a point where logic and common sense prevail so I pulled him--no medal is worth the long-term side effects.  JMHO

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I remember my son winning his first two bouts at Fargo and then being on the wrong end of a nasty suplex in round three. He hit the mat, got up, and walked into the circle on the adjoining mat ready to go. Having sustained several severe concussions in the day, I knew what the long-term consequences might be. Coaches wanted him to keep going but there has to be a point where logic and common sense prevail so I pulled him--no medal is worth the long-term side effects. JMHO

Obviously the right call. These things can get out of control quickly. Hate to say it but strategy wrestling Helen is heavy hands on the head. Snaps and so on.

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Sgallan, your post unsettles me. Hate to think someone would do that. Then it makes me think .... well ... kind of a ****ty situation for the opponent. Go for it full bore to win and risk causing brain damage to your opponent or don’t go for it and accommodate her because you don’t want to cause brain damage — and perhaps lose.

 

Just not a good situation for either competitor.

 

We need a good journalist to dig into this. Shine a light on the situation overall for the sport and these situations in particular. Weigh the different perspectives and pros/cons. Provide insight into the power or lack thereof related to the sport’s regulatory body. Would be very interesting read.

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Sgallan, your post unsettles me. Hate to think someone would do that. Then it makes me think .... well ... kind of a ****ty situation for the opponent. Go for it full bore to win and risk causing brain damage to your opponent or don’t go for it and accommodate her because you don’t want to cause brain damage — and perhaps lose.

 

Just not a good situation for either competitor.

 

We need a good journalist to dig into this. Shine a light on the situation overall for the sport and these situations in particular. Weigh the different perspectives and pros/cons. Provide insight into the power or lack thereof related to the sport’s regulatory body. Would be very interesting read.

Worse is head/ hands, and being heavy, is fundamental technique in any event.

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Hate to think someone would do that. Then it makes me think .... well ... kind of a ****ty situation for the opponent. Go for it full bore to win and risk causing brain damage to your opponent or don’t go for it and accommodate her because you don’t want to cause brain damage — and perhaps lose.

Just not a good situation for either competitor.

 

The opponent should always go full bore, it is not his or her responsibility. Each wrestler assumes his or her own risk when stepping on the mat.

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Haywood - I get your post from the perspective of a robot. But if you have an ounce of compassion and you walk onto the mat with a wrestler you know is at high risk of a life altering brain injury, you are going to care and stress about it .... and if that person experiences the injury .... you are going to blame them and also feel like crap.

 

Read the Schalles interview posted on here. He was even more insulated —- sounds like just a freak accident to the opponent’s neck via a move the opponent hit — but Schalles suffered anyway. He isn’t a robot.

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Haywood - I get your post from the perspective of a robot. But if you have an ounce of compassion and you walk onto the mat with a wrestler you know is at high risk of a life altering brain injury, you are going to care and stress about it .... and if that person experiences the injury .... you are going to blame them and also feel like crap.

Read the Schalles interview posted on here. He was even more insulated —- sounds like just a freak accident to the opponent’s neck via a move the opponent hit — but Schalles suffered anyway. He isn’t a robot.

And how would that person feel if they held back and lost a close match? I would imagine that would also haunt them as well. Helen will make her choice, if she steps on the mat her opponents should consider her healthy and bring there full arsenal to give themselves every opportunity to win. And I am not a robot just a competitor.

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I'll probably mangle this, but I remember a story of one of the Petersons having to wrestle an opponent who had suffered a knee injury and he was conflicted over attacking the damaged leg.  I can't remember if it was Gable or Rick Saunders or someone else who told him to the effect, "If you only attack his good leg, you make the poor guy hop around and balance on a bad leg."  Please, one of our history wizards, give us the full, accurate story.  Basically, you're screwed no matter what you do if you try to accommodate an opponent's injury.

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I'll probably mangle this, but I remember a story of one of the Petersons having to wrestle an opponent who had suffered a knee injury and he was conflicted over attacking the damaged leg. I can't remember if it was Gable or Rick Saunders or someone else who told him to the effect, "If you only attack his good leg, you make the poor guy hop around and balance on a bad leg." Please, one of our history wizards, give us the full, accurate story. Basically, you're screwed no matter what you do if you try to accommodate an opponent's injury.

Both Smith and Cejudo attacked blown knees with zero mercy. Edited by sgallan

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Yes this is a real decision time for Helen and whoever advises her.  With that in mind, it would be well for USAW to do what has been suggested here and gather all the concussion evidence so that wrestlers will have all the details.  I'm afraid it won't help.  These people are still young and indestructible, in their own minds.  But it would be out there.  Perhaps USAW could also have a concussion doctor from the military (as sgallan mentions) so that they get the proper diagnosis and long term probabilities. 

 

mspart

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If one steps on the mat they should be considered healthy and wrestled as such. JMO

I agree, but it’s one thing to hit a low single on a wrapped leg, another to go heavy on the head with someone who is dealing with a major concussion situation.

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I agree, but it’s one thing to hit a low single on a wrapped leg, another to go heavy on the head with someone who is dealing with a major concussion situation.

Agree to an extent, but heavy on the head is a big part of wrestling. Not saying one should target that particularly injury. For example if one’s style is to stay out of ties and wrestle from space, but then changes their game plan to go heavy on the head against that particular opponent and their injury, that’s one thing. But it shouldn’t be up to the opponent to not wrestle their match because of an injury situation. It’s up the injured athlete/coaches not to put themselves in harms way.

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I agree with you guys, just saying I wouldn’t lose sleep over reinjuring a knee or shoulder of an opponent.

Permanent brain trauma would give me pause.

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wow... i totally missed this thread somehow...

 

closed head injuries are not anything to be messed with... i come from racing and have had my share, most of my friends have had as well, know several people in 100% care and in wheel chairs from head injuries... one of those even made it back to the pits appearing just fine after a major crash... 15 minutes later he was in a coma and life flighted out of there from brain swelling... physically he has never recovered... he was 16 at the time...

 

my youngest got a concussion last year wrestling and i kept him out for over two months after the symptoms had totally subsided before i would allow him to do anything... my oldest claimed i was babying him... it was a thing... last week at cadet duals, the oldest got popped pretty good and got concussed... didn't realize it in the match, but, he was up big and then just went to his back and got stuck... it was weird... diagnosed after match with concussion... he doesn't remember anything... i got in contact with the coaches just to verify he was done for the rest of the tourney... USA wrestling red carded him immediately and i was very thankful for that, so, at least in age group they are making the right calls...

 

i am not sure who is advising maroulis, but, i am not impressed... a friend (kid) was at the OTC awhile back (within the last 2 months) and they asked if he would roll with maroulis a little bit... she was in sunglasses indoors... they told him light drilling and nothing to the head... she should have been at home in a nice dark, quiet place... no ifs ands or buts... the fact she was moving around was scary to me...

 

with that being said, if she steps on the mat she should be considered fair game to all opponents... and if an opponent knows the situation and has any misgivings about it at all, then it is up to them to not wrestle her forfeit or not...

 

i am not sure if there is any kind of process to formally object to her being in a competitive environment, but, that should be handled the moment the wrestler in question was listed on the bracket for anyone who is unsure of whether or not they want to compete with anyone in a similar situation...

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I agree with you guys, just saying I wouldn’t lose sleep over reinjuring a knee or shoulder of an opponent.

Permanent brain trauma would give me pause.

Yes true point.

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@LJB - wow! I had no idea that head injuries were something racers deal with but it makes sense.

 

I'm sure Helen has a lot of pressure to go out and compete for the sake of Team USA, for the sport, for her sponsors and for herself but hopefully she will do what's best for her long-term livelihood and vitality.  Those brain injuries sound pretty serious and scary.

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