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justafan

When will we realize our training system is broke

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I guess the 70's,80's and 90's we must not have had folk. Free was at least as boring in the "ball grab" era. Rule changes have helped......... as the rule changes in folk appeared to help last year. John Smith said he doesn't think wrestling folk is a detriment.

I'll go with his expertise. He seemed to do ok doing both styles........and I could name MANY MANY more that did not have issues wrestling folk and free........ we Americans look at things so superficially we rarely see the forest for the trees.

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I friggin HATE riding time.

 

I think there is a way to keep folkstyle but incorporate some of the freestyle mentality - quicker stalemate calls, if you can't turn on top within a specific time, go back to feet (so riding is still a skill b/c you aren't giving up an escape point), etc. I've got a lot of ideas, just don't have the patience to type it all on my phone.

 

 

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Jason riding time is not the issue.......the issue is refs NOT calling the rule book. WHY is a guy not called when he makes NO effort to escape..... or the top guy not called when all he is doing is riding with no effort to pin.

Wade Schalles probably has the stalling problem answer........ a "point earned is a point for your team."

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So we should be very conservative in our willingness to adapt and change? While participation rates at the youth level are dropping? Football has put olympic sports on the block all across the country and going forward that will get worse. Maybe the question about us being contenders shouldn't be 500th when the Olympics is the only time we are on the national stage every 4 years. We have much more value when we produce medals than when we dont. I wonder how medals in the past had affected women's gymnastics participation across this country?

Edited by russelscout

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Jason riding time is not the issue.......the issue is refs NOT calling the rule book. WHY is a guy not called when he makes NO effort to escape..... or the top guy not called when all he is doing is riding with no effort to pin.

Wade Schalles probably has the stalling problem answer........ a "point earned is a point for your team."

I was generalizing when I said that - I think riding time, and mat wrestling in general, needs to be revisted. Need more action on both top and bottom.

 

 

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I was generalizing when I said that - I think riding time, and mat wrestling in general, needs to be revisted. Need more action on both top and bottom.

 

 

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I Agree.  Replace top bottom with "par terre."  Gut wrenches, ankle laces, etc score for exposure.  Give each wrestler 30 seconds to score, and then bring them back to neutral if nobody scores.  That is way better than the spiral ride/ fest we currently have.  

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So we should be very conservative in our willingness to adapt and change? While participation rates at the youth level are dropping? Football has put olympic sports on the block all across the country and going forward that will get worse. Maybe the question about us being contenders shouldn't be 500th when the Olympics is the only time we are on the national stage every 4 years. We have much more value when we produce medals than when we dont. I wonder how medals in the past had affected women's gymnastics participation across this country?

Do you honestly think HS administrators care about Olympic medals?  

 

As for the National stage, the NCAA tournament gets more spectators, more viewers, and just as much US media as Olympic wrestling and it happens every year.  

 

But like I said, more power to you.  If you can rally the hundreds on here who are passionate about Olympic medals and get them to switch the entire system that currently employs thousands of Folkstyle coaches, I'd be fired up to watch, coach, compete, and support a style I think is superior (Freestyle).

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Where did I say high school administrators care about the Olympics? If you are trying to get at kids will get hurt.. easy fix. No high amplitude throws. Otherwise wtf are you talking about. I think American wrestlers winning gold on national television is good for the sport. You don't seem to think so.

Ncaa tournament gets a lot of viewers and they are all already wrestling fans. How many non wrestling fans you think are tuning into the ncaa finals. There are some, but highly unlikely that it is bringing in new athletes. Almost everyone watches the Olympics. We will have no prime time, no attention, nothing if we never win.

You really don't think coaches would be able to adapt in the information age? There is not shortage of info out there and we have plenty of competition for trial and error. Wouldn't take that long

Edited by russelscout

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Where did I say high school administrators care about the Olympics? If you are trying to get at kids will get hurt.. easy fix. No high amplitude throws. Otherwise wtf are you talking about. I think American wrestlers winning gold on national television is good for the sport. You don't seem to think so.

Ncaa tournament gets a lot of viewers and they are all already wrestling fans. How many non wrestling fans you think are tuning into the ncaa finals. There are some, but highly unlikely that it is bringing in new athletes. Almost everyone watches the Olympics. We will have no prime time, no attention, nothing if we never win.

You really don't think coaches would be able to adapt in the information age? There is not shortage of info out there and we have plenty of competition for trial and error. Wouldn't take that long

Are you just inventing things to argue with?

 

I said nothing about kids getting hurt.  I think HS administrators just won't care.  There apathy towards wrestling (and all non marquee sports) makes getting huge changes passed very difficult.  They would rather roll out the same program with zero of their time and thought invested in it. Good Luck motivating thousands of HSs with 100+ governing bodies to all change to a different sport.  Push it and I honestly think they are more likely to use the occasion to drop wrestling than to switch to a different style of wrestling.  

 

Conversely, the NHSCA can approve rule changes every year with almost nobody noticing.  You can make actual real changes that will help shrink the gap between styles, or you can have an impossible dream of removing a sport that 250K american kids do each year. 

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My whole post said why not.  I don't believe you will have much success pushing a switch to Freestyle.  I'd love to be proven wrong.  It's by far my favorite style.  I think there is about a 0% chance of getting HSs or colleges to switch to freestyle.  But if the few hundred people who want to see the switch want to push for it, good luck and let me know if I can sign an online petition.

 

Or we can look at achievable goals like reducing the differences between Free and Folk with some smaller rule changes.

 

As for when we become a legit contender, I think that question is about 500th on the list of motivations for the people who make decisions about the 250K HS wrestlers who will never compete internationally.

Surprised you didnt tell him  your post was stupid since your opinion defers from his

Edited by justafan

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Are you just inventing things to argue with?

 

I said nothing about kids getting hurt.  I think HS administrators just won't care.  There apathy towards wrestling (and all non marquee sports) makes getting huge changes passed very difficult.  They would rather roll out the same program with zero of their time and thought invested in it. Good Luck motivating thousands of HSs with 100+ governing bodies to all change to a different sport.  Push it and I honestly think they are more likely to use the occasion to drop wrestling than to switch to a different style of wrestling.  

 

Conversely, the NHSCA can approve rule changes every year with almost nobody noticing.  You can make actual real changes that will help shrink the gap between styles, or you can have an impossible dream of removing a sport that 250K american kids do each year. 

Once the NCAA changes the rules to freestyle, high school will immediately follow suit.  Too much $$$ in scholarships is on the table for them not to switch. Any state that sticks to folk will immediately be at a huge disadvantage when it comes to getting recruited.  

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Once the NCAA changes the rules to freestyle, high school will immediately follow suit.  Too much $$$ in scholarships is on the table for them not to switch. Any state that sticks to folk will immediately be at a huge disadvantage when it comes to getting recruited.  

So money will drive HSs to switch but all of the college coaches in the country who are paid for their folkstyle coaching abilities will switch for love of country and ignore their financial motivation to keep everything the same?

 

I love John Smith but he just said on the Olympic broadcast he doesn't think Folkstyle in college hurts Freestyle performance.  Do you think he is dumb enough to believe that or do you think he is paid to coach Folkstyle?

 

Would you encourage your company to switch to an adjacent field because it would help those outside your company, even if it could adversely affect you?  Tom Ryan is one of the 5 best in the country at his job, so he has one of the 5 best jobs in the country.  Do you think he is excited about changing to a style where he might not be among the 100 best coaches?  What about Rob Koll the head of the college coaches association?  Do you think he wants to eliminate the style of wrestling he is paid to coach, so non-college competitors can win more every 4 years?

 

Switching to freestyle is never happening.  It's like the metric system.  It is definitely better, but inertia and infrastructure alone stop it from happening.

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So money will drive HSs to switch but all of the college coaches in the country who are paid for their folkstyle coaching abilities will switch for love of country and ignore their financial motivation to keep everything the same?

 

I love John Smith but he just said on the Olympic broadcast he doesn't think Folkstyle in college hurts Freestyle performance.  Do you think he is dumb enough to believe that or do you think he is paid to coach Folkstyle?

 

Would you encourage your company to switch to an adjacent field because it would help those outside your company, even if it could adversely affect you?  Tom Ryan is one of the 5 best in the country at his job, so he has one of the 5 best jobs in the country.  Do you think he is excited about changing to a style where he might not be among the 100 best coaches?  What about Rob Koll the head of the college coaches association?  Do you think he wants to eliminate the style of wrestling he is paid to coach, so non-college competitors can win more every 4 years?

 

Switching to freestyle is never happening.  It's like the metric system.  It is definitely better, but inertia and infrastructure alone stop it from happening.

You may be right that it cannot be done.  I hope you are wrong.  At the very least, there needs to be a movement/group of people pushing to get the change made.  

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I can't believe that we can attribute all this misery at Folkstyles' door step. If it was truly all Folkstyles fault, we would've never seen much success on the international scene. As some other bloggers have pointed out, perhaps some changes to Folkstyles should be made that will be beneficial for us in Freestyle, but I believe the problem we are having in this tournament must be something else. I'm just not sure we prepped/trained right for this tournament. I'm sure we are aware of how the other countries are training their wrestlers, so what is it that is separating us, from them?

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I know you didn't say anything about kids getting hurt. I had to make that assumption based on the fact that you asked me about HS administraters. Out of no where. Just trying to make sense of it all. Turns out that the rules committee needs to go through every HS Administrator in the country to change rules now? That's certainly news to me. It's not like everyone has to get new mats and new equipment. It's still wrestling with different rules.

At what line boconnell is there too many rules changed that you now have to get the approval of every HS administrator in the country with wrestling? Is it 10 rules? 30? 40? I was unaware of the rules about the rules.

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I know you didn't say anything about kids getting hurt. I had to make that assumption based on the fact that you asked me about HS administraters. Out of no where. Just trying to make sense of it all. Turns out that the rules committee needs to go through every HS Administrator in the country to change rules now? That's certainly news to me. It's not like everyone has to get new mats and new equipment. It's still wrestling with different rules.

At what line boconnell is there too many rules changed that you now have to get the approval of every HS administrator in the country with wrestling? Is it 10 rules? 30? 40? I was unaware of the rules about the rules.

You can change all the rules you want and nobody cares.  You cannot change the sports a school offers without not just an administrator but likely the school board.

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I can't believe that we can attribute all this misery at Folkstyles' door step. If it was truly all Folkstyles fault, we would've never seen much success on the international scene. As some other bloggers have pointed out, perhaps some changes to Folkstyles should be made that will be beneficial for us in Freestyle, but I believe the problem we are having in this tournament must be something else. I'm just not sure we prepped/trained right for this tournament. I'm sure we are aware of how the other countries are training their wrestlers, so what is it that is separating us, from them?

So how many Worlds/Olympics will this be the response? We have one guy here and there maybe 2. And it's been that way since, what? 1996?

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so just keep calling it wrestling and we should be good right?

Honestly that might work with how little most care.  But I imagine if HS track tried to switch to indoor track it'd be denied, and I think the same here.  School Districts aren't know for how well they work and how easy it is to accomplish stuff.  All it would take is 1 (or 1000) wrestling parents/coaches complaining to the district/school that the sport is being dropped, and it's gridlocked for ever.  

 

My point is that rule changes to our existing sport can accomplish 90% of the same goal, and we can actually do it. 

 

1. add a pushout

2. Ref stands them up after :30

3. rolling around on your back is penalized instead of rewarded

 

And already you have removed all the bad habits we currently spend 2 decades building.  Like I said, as little as a generation ago, the two styles were close enough we weren't hurt by having folkstyle.  

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The difference between OD and ID track and this is the facilities. Administration definitely takes notice of cost which in this case there would be none, but I get what you mean about parent complaints too.

I agree with you that those 3 rules including no escape and riding time would do it and be enough

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This is going to be the worst showing at the Olympics for US wrestlers in at least 60 years. Ouch.

There is a lot of wrestling left to do.  JB had a really bad day for him and DD lost to a better wrestler who didn't make the finals.  I'm not giving up hopes for some mens FS medals yet.

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One bad day for one of our top 3 best wrestlers ever does not mean our "system is broken." Burroughs had a bad day. It happens to the best. Unfortunately, it happened at the Olympics. His senior level record is 130-4. This thread is a bit dramatic.

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