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5 pages aren't enough? Everyone knows Iowa has a strong young team and they'll be in the running for a 4th national championship next March. What more is there to say at this point in the season? Iowa has a tough dual with ISU this evening and we'll have more to discuss after that. Some of you are going to whine, complain, and accuse no matter what happens. If Iowa does well and we comment, we're accused of gloating. If we don't comment enough, we're fair weather fans. And from a fan perspective, I don't know of any Iowa fans who aren't disappointed that we're not scheduled to participate in national duals.

 

UPDATE - apparently 5 pages aren't enough...up to 6 now :)

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This is a textbook description of "Fair Weather" fans:

chess wrote:Wire and others question why Iowa fans are not posting much this year and this 4 page string sums it up pretty good. Most Iowa fans know this is a rebuilding period and most of the kids are still unknowns at this point in the season. What is there to talk about yet? Last year we returned with a loaded line-up of mostly known quality that makes for more intelligent predictions and discussions early in the season.

 

That is simply wrong. If you had used the entire post, you would have found that we go other places than this board to talk about the team:

"There are other message forums specifically for Iowa fans where we can discuss our hopes and speculate without having to deal with the trolls."

 

This board is populated by trolls who will disappear as their team tanks. We would be wise to follow jmcginness's advice. Carver Hawkeye will have more than 10,000 fans for the Iowa-ISU meet tonight. How many fans will show up at your favorite school for the next meet?

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LOL! This post has made me laugh out loud several times now.

 

All it means is that wrestling season is back in full swing and I love it!

 

I love all of the story lines like having a Ivy league school coming in as the pre-season number 1. Having traditional powers like Iowa, Okie St, Penn St and Minny all having very young unproven teams. The return of Caldwell and Burroughs. It is gonna be a fun season.

 

Go Hawks!

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LOL! This post has made me laugh out loud several times now.

 

All it means is that wrestling season is back in full swing and I love it!

 

I love all of the story lines like having a Ivy league school coming in as the pre-season number 1. Having traditional powers like Iowa, Okie St, Penn St and Minny all having very young unproven teams. The return of Caldwell and Burroughs. It is gonna be a fun season.

 

Go Hawks!

Im sorry, but when has Penn State been a traditional powerhouse? Maybe im not that old.

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LOL! This post has made me laugh out loud several times now.

 

All it means is that wrestling season is back in full swing and I love it!

 

I love all of the story lines like having a Ivy league school coming in as the pre-season number 1. Having traditional powers like Iowa, Okie St, Penn St and Minny all having very young unproven teams. The return of Caldwell and Burroughs. It is gonna be a fun season.

 

Go Hawks!

Im sorry, but when has Penn State been a traditional powerhouse? Maybe im not that old.

That's probably what it is.

 

From 1960 through 1999 Penn State finished in the Top 10 at the NCAA Championships 27 times.

With placings of:


    [*:tme8fnaw]0 times
    [*:tme8fnaw]1
    [*:tme8fnaw]5
    [*:tme8fnaw]4
    [*:tme8fnaw]3
    [*:tme8fnaw]1
    [*:tme8fnaw]6
    [*:tme8fnaw]2
    [*:tme8fnaw]0
    [*:tme8fnaw]5

I'd say that qualifies as a traditional powerhouse (then again, I'm an alum and homer).

 

Penn State wrestling lost a lot of its prestige from 2000 on. Troy Sunderland's teams placed Top 10 twice from 2000 through 2009 (2003 6th and 2008 3rd). If it wasn't for powerful tradition and expectations, he'd probably still be there.

 

Cael Sanderson's team finished 9th last season. Although it is much too early to determine what kind of legacy his teams will produce, it appears he is setting the table to bring a powerful tradition back to Happy Valley.

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I can't remember the details but growing up in the 80's I remember some pretty salty Penn St teams. I remember watching them wrestle the hawks on IPTV. Granted the hawks usually got the best of them but who didn't the hawks generally get the best of in the 80's.

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I can't remember the details but growing up in the 80's I remember some pretty salty Penn St teams. I remember watching them wrestle the hawks on IPTV. Granted the hawks usually got the best of them but who didn't the hawks generally get the best of in the 80's.

Im really not that young, but I do remember some of the teams that they had in the 80s and the 90s as well. Some of the teams when they had Prescott on them and also Abe who tangled with McGinnis a few times. I guess I just didnt ever think that Penn State was a powerhouse back then, but like Old said, I was and always have been an Iowa Homer, so compared to the Hawks not many teams were beating them back then.

 

Based on the stats that old also posted, those are some pretty good placings, but in my mind you still have to win a Title to be considered a powerhouse recently such as the Minnesotas, Iowas, Ok States, and I would even throw Iowa State in there too. I would put Penn State in the lower level, although very close to elite status, and of course that could all change within the next few years since I will admit Cael has a lot of talent in that room right now.

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Hell I'm old and don't remember....maybe he meant Oklahoma?

I guess it all depends how you look at it. Remember WIN magazine's recent list of the "Top 40 All-Time Most Victorious Wrestling Programs"? They ranked Penn State #9, slightly ahead of Oklahoma at #10.

x

http://www.examiner.com/college-wrestling-in-national/college-wrestling-101-top-40-all-time-winningest-mat-programs

x

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Hell I'm old and don't remember....maybe he meant Oklahoma?

I guess it all depends how you look at it. Remember WIN magazine's recent list of the "Top 40 All-Time Most Victorious Wrestling Programs"? They ranked Penn State #9, slightly ahead of Oklahoma at #10.

x

http://www.examiner.com/college-wrestling-in-national/college-wrestling-101-top-40-all-time-winningest-mat-programs

x

 

 

That's quite an "interesting" list there.... ahead of both #9 Penn St and #10 Oklahoma.... and ahead of #5 Iowa, for that matter, is #4 Springfield (MA).

 

I wonder if some day #20 Wisconsin will catch up to #18 Olivet.

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Hell I'm old and don't remember....maybe he meant Oklahoma?

I guess it all depends how you look at it. Remember WIN magazine's recent list of the "Top 40 All-Time Most Victorious Wrestling Programs"? They ranked Penn State #9, slightly ahead of Oklahoma at #10.

x

http://www.examiner.com/college-wrestling-in-national/college-wrestling-101-top-40-all-time-winningest-mat-programs

x

 

 

That's quite an "interesting" list there.... ahead of both #9 Penn St and #10 Oklahoma.... and ahead of #5 Iowa, for that matter, is #4 Springfield (MA).

 

I wonder if some day #20 Wisconsin will catch up to #18 Olivet.

That's one way to look at the list. However, it's obviously ranked in order of the colleges wth the most dual meet wins, regardless of division. Therefore, I looked at each division separately, specifically to avoid the "apples and oranges" types of comparisons you mention above. (Top 10 D-I list below)

 

The data could also be sorted by winning percentage, in which case Oklahoma State would be ranked at the top instead of Iowa State. However, by naming it the "Top 40 All-Time Most Victorious Wrestling Programs," WIN made it pretty clear what the list represents.

 

I think its good data, but may have some limitations depending on what use one chooses to make of it. Nonetheless, I think its pertinent to the issue that was being discussed and believe that all of the below schools have great wrestling traditions. JMHO though.

 

1. Iowa State

2. Oklahoma State

3. Oregon State

4. Iowa

5. Minnesota

6. US Naval Academy

7. Lehigh

8. Penn State

9. Oklahoma

10. Michigan

x

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That's quite an "interesting" list there.... ahead of both #9 Penn St and #10 Oklahoma.... and ahead of #5 Iowa, for that matter, is #4 Springfield (MA).

 

I wonder if some day #20 Wisconsin will catch up to #18 Olivet.

That's one way to look at the list. However, it's obviously ranked in order of the colleges wth the most dual meet wins, regardless of division. Therefore, I looked at each division separately, specifically to avoid the "apples and oranges" types of comparisons you mention above. (Top 10 D-I list below)

 

The data could also be sorted by winning percentage, in which case Oklahoma State would be ranked at the top instead of Iowa State. However, by naming it the "Top 40 All-Time Most Victorious Wrestling Programs," WIN made it pretty clear what the list represents.

 

I think its good data, but may have some limitations depending on what use one chooses to make of it. Nonetheless, I think its pertinent to the issue that was being discussed and believe that all of the below schools have great wrestling traditions. JMHO though.

 

1. Iowa State

2. Oklahoma State

3. Oregon State

4. Iowa

5. Minnesota

6. US Naval Academy

7. Lehigh

8. Penn State

9. Oklahoma

10. Michigan

x

 

 

People sometimes forget about Dale Thomas and the Oregon Agricultural School ... (OSU)

 

My dad was one of Bill Koll's roommates and medical trainer at Iowa Teachers after the war, and Dale was wrestling at Cornell College at the same time. Lot's of those post WWII "kids" came out West after school. Dad had a reunion of sorts back in the 60's and Koll, Thomas, and several Ad's and Principles from Seattle and Oregon all ended up at the farm and had a couple days of Salmon fishing, and BS'ing about their good olde' days. I was pretty young at the time, and didn't really realize who all these guys were.

 

Dad is pushing 90 yo's now, and he and Mom likes to regal us with his "stories" ... from Iowa Teachers, and all those Kids, that became Teachers, AD's, Coaches at all levels, and Mom as a former "Spring Harvest" Queen .... :o

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People sometimes forget about Dale Thomas and the Oregon Agricultural School ... (OSU)

Ahh yes...I remember when OSU was still known as the state agricultural college and "Jimmie the Coyote" was the mascot. He was much better behaved that that angry beaver they have up there now.

 

BTW Wire, you've probably already seen it, but the Oregon State Wrestling Guides usually contain a lot of interesting stuff. For example, check out the picture of the ribbons on the Wrestling Queens on page 41 at the below link.

 

http://osubeavers.nmnathletics.com//pdf6/26123.pdf?SPSID=37974&SPID=1958&DB_OEM_ID=4700

x

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Just listing team's by most number of victories isn't really a fair barometer of program success, I'd say National Titles and Winning PERCENTAGE would be better indicators. In both of those, I believe, Oklahoma State is the most historically successful program. For the list presented, with just total victories, if a program has enough chances they'll eventually win the most. For instance, if a team wrestled 3,000 duals, and won 1300 and lost 1700, they would be at the top of the list, but would they belong as one of the most successful teams in history?

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Just listing team's by most number of victories isn't really a fair barometer of program success, I'd say National Titles and Winning PERCENTAGE would be better indicators. In both of those, I believe, Oklahoma State is the most historically successful program. For the list presented, with just total victories, if a program has enough chances they'll eventually win the most. For instance, if a team wrestled 3,000 duals, and won 1300 and lost 1700, they would be at the top of the list, but would they belong as one of the most successful teams in history?

Vak, I agree with a number of your points. As you will note, I specifically indicated that the data "may have some limitations depending on what one chooses to make of it." And, like you, I mentioned that sorting the data by winning percentage would lead to different results that would cause Oklahoma State to be ranked at the top of the list. Although I never specifically mentioned the # of national championships won, I think it goes without saying that would be a very heavily weighted factor; probably the most important of all, if one were ranking the most successful programs. (However, I wasn't attempting to do a strict ranking, just pointing out that the data WIN presented reflects very favorably on Penn State's program.)

 

Notwithstanding my general agreement with part of your post, I believe you overstate the case in claiming that "For the list presented, with just total victories, if a program has enough chances they'll eventually win the most." For example, you fail to define just how many chances are enough. And, while it is generally true that the schools that have wrestled the most duals generally faired better in the WIN rankings, the data presented refutes the basic premise of your argument that the team that has the most chances will win the most duals.

 

The above proposition can be borne out by totalling the number of duals wrestled to see if your argument is solidly grounded. For example, just looking at the D-I teams, one notes that Minnesota has wrestled the most duals. In fact, they are the only D-I program that has wrestled over 1300 duals. Nonetheless, they still fall behind Iowa State, Oklahoma State, Oregon State, and Iowa respectively in WIN's ranking. Now, you may wish to argue that wrestling 1303 duals (more than any other program on the list) is not "enough chances." However, it is undeniable that they have had more chances than anyone else, but have yet to win the most dual meets. While you argue that this must inevitably happen, you provide no real evidence to support that claim.

 

And while your 3000 dual example is interesting at first glance, it is also ultimately unconvincing - as there is not that much variance between the number of duals wrestled by the top D-I teams on the list. While you use this extreme example of a team with a losing record topping the list, the actual list contains no teams with losing records and merely a cursory look at the list shows that the teams with the better winning percentages, as a rule, are clustered closer to the top of the dual win rankings, as well.

 

At any rate, I was merely using existing data to support the proposition that Penn State has generally been considered as one of the tradional powers in college wrestling. They are also one of only 11 teams that have ever won the NCAA championship tournament and the list referenced discloses that they have a better dual meet winning percentage than two of the multiple national title holders (Oklahoma and Minnesota).

 

In short, Penn State's body of work over the years certainly puts them among the top programs in the country.

x

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People sometimes forget about Dale Thomas and the Oregon Agricultural School ... (OSU)

Ahh yes...I remember when OSU was still known as the state agricultural college and "Jimmie the Coyote" was the mascot. He was much better behaved that that angry beaver they have up there now.

 

BTW Wire, you've probably already seen it, but the Oregon State Wrestling Guides usually contain a lot of interesting stuff. For example, check out the picture of the ribbons on the Wrestling Queens on page 41 at the below link.

 

http://osubeavers.nmnathletics.com//pdf6/26123.pdf?SPSID=37974&SPID=1958&DB_OEM_ID=4700

x

 

 

Yeah .... It's a pretty good bunch of info .... Lot's of data and trivia.

 

And yes, the Babes were just hotties back then!! ;)

 

Mom and her "harvest Queen" outfit is just a hoot!!

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3rd - 5th in 2014? Ouch. I suspect you're picking Penn State, Oklahoma St., Minnesota, tOSU, and possibly Oklahoma to perform ahead of Iowa. Not sure how you are predicting that it gets worse for the Hawks in the years following 2014???

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I believe Iowa would have to beat either Minnesota, Okie State or Penn State to get 3rd, so I really am looking at 4th. Iowa will also have to beat out Ohio State and a revitalized Oklahoma team to claim 4th. When Ramos, St.John and Lofthouse graduate after next season, I look for a further drop. The recruiting classes from then on just do not look that good to me. Time will tell.

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saying that Brands is now wrestling a Brands team and not the leftovers from VT or Zalesky is kind of misleading. Brands recruited the guys that went to and then followed him back from Virginia Tech. They weren't guys that Z brought in.

 

You could say that last seasons team was an All Brands team.

 

-------

 

And I'm sure Wire can't wait for 2 years to pass, to see how Cael does with a true "Cael" team.

 

;-)

 

 

It appears to me that Cael's team has done pretty good the last 2 years ... ;)

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I know that this season had many ups and downs, but as Hawkeye Fans and Memebers of Brands and Co. we never look back. We keep pushing forward and distroy every obstacle that stands in our way. Here is a song about that. It features many wrestling greats. Be sure to pass it on. Thank you.

 

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