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Can Burroughs be Unseated in the US?

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Does someone else take the reigns next year in the US at 74kg?  

 

This will be the first time Burroughs has not had a bye through the mini-tournament of the WTTs.  It is very likely that Kyle Dake moves back down, and Dieringer with a full year of senior freestyle under his belt, Dieringer should prove to be a formidable opponent.  

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Andrew Howe is also going to be a factor, even though he did get destroyed with ease by JB the last time they met. You can't talk about Dieringer and Dake without also talking about Howe, who abused the former the last time they met and has always given the latter an extremely tough time.

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Anyone can be unseated, but I don't think he will be.  Despite JB's flop at the olympics, nobody else at his weight has any recent domestic or international results that suggest they are any better.  It's not like in Russia where you have Gadisov and Gatsilov sitting behind Bolt.  Or the backup 86kg winning Euros...Or Rashidov/others doing well at 57kg, etc.  

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Anyone can be unseated, but I don't think he will be.  Despite JB's flop at the olympics, nobody else at his weight has any recent domestic or international results that suggest they are any better.  It's not like in Russia where you have Gadisov and Gatsilov sitting behind Bolt.  Or the backup 86kg winning Euros...Or Rashidov/others doing well at 57kg, etc.  

I disagree.  I think this weight (with Dake healthy and back down) and Howe and JB in it is a lot like Russia in the above mentioned weights.  I think this is the only weight that we have three guys who could be a threat to place high in any international tournament.  

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JB needs to thank his lucky stars that David Taylor bumped up to 86kg. Anyone who wins the Spanish Grand Prix two times is a threat!

 

In all seriousness the answer is no. Obviously Burroughs's showing at the game revealed he has vulnerabilities, but I do not envision anyone that was listed in the OP as being a serious threat to knocking Burroughs out of the 74kg spot in the upcoming year. I will say that the spot for the 2020 games is up for grabs though, but I doubt anyone listed in the OP will represent the US. It will likely be a younger guy 

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Two theories resonate with me:

1. He had a bad day

2. He "got old" overnight

 

#2 feels stupid even writing it, but the reality is that it does happen. Given what JB said about his preparation and how cleanly and perfectly he lived his life this year, it is entirely possible that he has peaked. I have always been concerned about JB's durability as a champ because his style so heavily relies on quickness and power, which are among the first to go with age. He's not exactly John Smith or B Saitiev, i.e. a master technician. 

 

I'm very curious about how JB will look in his next few competitions. That's got to be one of the top storylines in our sport for the next year or so.

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I disagree.  I think this weight (with Dake healthy and back down) and Howe and JB in it is a lot like Russia in the above mentioned weights.  I think this is the only weight that we have three guys who could be a threat to place high in any international tournament.  

 

 

I agree with this. This board loves to put ceilings on people based on what they have not done in the past. However, wrestling doesn't work like that. Look at Snyder and Cox, who had done nothing prior to achieving their first medals. Look at the Japanese kid this year who literally came out of nowhere. There are countless such examples.

 

Dake beat Cox at 86 kg once, the same Cox who just got bronze at the Olympics and was quite possibly a finalist were it not for a massive brain fart. To suggest Dake couldn't be highly competitive at 74 kg given that fact is ridiculous. At 74 kg, he has beaten Tsargush, a two-time world champ. And he has given JB all he wants in a couple of matches (yes, he's gotten blown away too). He is still young and keeps getting better, as evidenced by his ability to crush all comers except Olympic medalists at two weights in the US.

 

Howe has done well at very tough international tournaments. 2nd at Yarigin, I believe? That is no small feat.

 

To suggest neither has done anything to suggest they could medal is false. A good draw is all it takes for either guy to be a legit medal threat.

Edited by wrestlingnerd

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Two theories resonate with me:

1. He had a bad day

2. He "got old" overnight

 

#2 feels stupid even writing it, but the reality is that it does happen. Given what JB said about his preparation and how cleanly and perfectly he lived his life this year, it is entirely possible that he has peaked. I have always been concerned about JB's durability as a champ because his style so heavily relies on quickness and power, which are among the first to go with age. He's not exactly John Smith or B Saitiev, i.e. a master technician. 

 

I'm very curious about how JB will look in his next few competitions. That's got to be one of the top storylines in our sport for the next year or so.

 

Even if age is a factor JB won't lose to anyone domestically in the next year. Its not like our cup runneth over with talent at 74kg. The only impressive win on Dake's resume is from 2013 against Tsargush and enough with this Andrew Howe nonsense.

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Even if age is a factor JB won't lose to anyone domestically in the next year. Its not like our cup runneth over with talent at 74kg. The only impressive win on Dake's resume is from 2013 against Tsargush and enough with this Andrew Howe nonsense.

 

I know you're just a troll, but you sound exactly like the Snyder and Cox naysayers did before they won world gold and Olympic bronze, respectively.

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I agree with this. This board loves to put ceilings on people based on what they have not done in the past. However, wrestling doesn't work like that. Look at Snyder and Cox, who had done nothing prior to achieving their first medals. Look at the Japanese kid this year who literally came out of nowhere. There are countless such examples.

Great point.  This would apply to most of the great ones going back through wrestling history.  J Smith, Satiev, Belaglasov, JB, Kemp, either Schulz.  They may have shown great promise @ the Jr level but until they start performing @ the senior level you just can't tell. 

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I think holding the 74kg spot is the least of JB's worries right now.  I mean, Dake, Howe, Ringer, Caldwell, etc. might give him a run for his money close to home, but it's a much steeper climb back up to the top at the World level. JB and his coaches/trainers are going to have to figure out how his offensive arsenal & technique will evolve so he can dominate internationally again.  How many times did he blast double right into a brick wall?  How many of his opponents were ready to defend his low leg re-shots?  JB's been exhaustively "gameplanned" by now. 

 

Hopefully, Rio was a wake up call, one that lights a white hot ember deep in his gut, and JB reinvents himself and comes back with the same intensity...  along with maybe some new throws, a trip series, a vicious snapdown, maybe integrate a pushout strategy like many of the Iranian wrestlers. I think the door is still wide open for JB if he wants it.

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I know you're just a troll, but you sound exactly like the Snyder and Cox naysayers did before they won world gold and Olympic bronze, respectively.

 

Got nothing but love for those two. I had my doubts about Synder before the games based off his losses, but his performance showed me the error of my ways. Cox definitely exceeded my expectations (I would like to add that he was a butt hair away from not medaling as I had predicted). IMO youth is a valuable commodity in the sport. Synder and Cox both got that going for them. Now if they can develop a parterre game and avoid being one dimensional I will be very excited for their future. As far as Howe and Dake go.... they ain't getting any younger and they ain't done nothing to impress me. I just don't get all this talk about them being the ones that might dethrone JB.

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Good Grief, he lost an incredibly close tight match to an unbelievably good wrestler built like a comic book character, and then couldn't get up for a real tough repeache match the same day, and now he is going to struggle not only internationally, but domestically as well?  If he loses on more than one day per 6 month period maybe I'll entertain that thought.  Geduev is going up, and he will blow through Yazdani-Charati, so I'm considering him the favorite for a world title next year.

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Good Grief, he lost an incredibly close tight match to an unbelievably good wrestler built like a comic book character, and then couldn't get up for a real tough repeache match the same day, and now he is going to struggle not only internationally, but domestically as well?  If he loses on more than one day per 6 month period maybe I'll entertain that thought.  Geduev is going up, and he will blow through Yazdani-Charati, so I'm considering him the favorite for a world title next year.

 

Agree with everything except a portion of the last sentence. If there ever is a JB and Yazdani match-up it will be close, but agree that he is the favorite for the World title in 2017.

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Agree with everything except a portion of the last sentence. If there ever is a JB and Yazdani match-up it will be close, but agree that he is the favorite for the World title in 2017.

 

Just seems like a terrible style match up for HYC to me, but the stronger he gets the less likely JB will be to blow through him.

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My concern about Yazdabi is that he is still very much in the steep end of his learning curve. JB has likely peaked. Think about how much IB improved between his first world title and now. Yazdani, the 2017 version, could be a different animal while JB will look a lot like the JB of today (possibly minus the Olympics day off).

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I disagree.  I think this weight (with Dake healthy and back down) and Howe and JB in it is a lot like Russia in the above mentioned weights.  I think this is the only weight that we have three guys who could be a threat to place high in any international tournament.  

 

It's a lot like Russia if you ignore all of their international success.  Dake and Howe have been wrestling internationally for years now with nothing to show for it recently.  Dake is 25 and Howe is 26.  Results suggest that Howe peaked in 2012 prior to his injury against Burroughs.  I'm not sure when Dake peaked because he has so few international results.  Burroughs is 28..Not much older than those two. 

 

Maybe Burroughs is really done, and this tournament is indicative of the fire being gone in him.  In that case, yes he may get knocked off.  However, I don't think that's the case.  

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All this talk about passes to the finals.  WTT trials procedures have not been set yet, and there is a coaching transition wrapping up.  I don't know any more than anyone else, except to say that nobody on the outside knows what those decisions will be.

 

To illustrate my point, and I think this has been done in the past, USA Wrestling could give all US Open Champions a spot in the best-of-3 final.  Or any other variation of procedures.  We shouldn't discuss at this juncture like JB won't have a bye and Kyle will, even if that is how things turn out once the new procedures are revealed.

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if dake comes back down he has a chance, albeit a small one. I don't see ringer or howe or martinez being capable of it. If the US open puts guys in the finals again, and JB wins the open, then no, I don't think dake could beat him if JB has a buy to the finals. if dake wins the open and has the buy, then id give him about a 50% of making the team. but overall the odds strongly favor JB.

Edited by newyorkwrestler

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Two theories resonate with me:

1. He had a bad day

2. He "got old" overnight

 

I'd add a third possibility: He wasn't wrestling for a medal, he was wrestling for a larger place in history -- and that big-picture pressure took him out of the moment just enough to contribute to the first loss. That's based on his interview after the second match.

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I'd add a third possibility: He wasn't wrestling for a medal, he was wrestling for a larger place in history -- and that big-picture pressure took him out of the moment just enough to contribute to the first loss. That's based on his interview after the second match.

more likely: geduev just beat him, because geduev is that good. JB was broken after this. 

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In 2015 Howe took second in the Yargin. Howe was ranked in the world, has Dake ever been? Howe is just as likely to knock off Burroughs as Dake imo. Both have solid defense and good positioning. Which is why Burroughs lost his first loss. If they can find a way to stay in position without having a mental error, they both have a chance.

Edited by maolsen

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2nd at Yargin is a nice result but doesn't replace all the other results where Dake defeated him head-to-head or placed higher in tournaments. There really is no debate that Dake has been the better wrestler. Howe wasn't even third at that weight. Taylor was better then Howe before he moved up. Looking ahead, I suspect Dieringer may be better then Howe by this time next year.

Edited by Flying-Tiger

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