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Can Burroughs be Unseated in the US?

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Will be very interesting to watch what happens.  JB basically HAS to come back right?  Would be shocked if he ended his career on that note.  And gotta think Dake is coming back down. How will JB respond?  Big cross roads in his career.  If he ended now he'd probably still be right behind Smith for US wrestlers in my book.

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2nd at Yargin is a nice result but doesn't replace all the other results where Dake defeated him head-to-head or placed higher in tournaments. There really is no debate that Dake has been the better wrestler. Howe wasn't even third at that weight. Taylor was better then Howe before he moved up. Looking ahead, I suspect Dieringer may be better then Howe by this time next year.

My point was strictly that he has done enough to be in the discussion, and could very well challenge for the spot. His biggest issue is despite great defense, against Taylor, Dake, and Burroughs, he seems to make one bad mistake that costs him. In 2013 a bad shot in overtime gave Dake a win 4-2. Then he got sloppy taking a risk and DT turned him till it was over. His issue is he has to wrestle perfect to beat Dake and burroughs, his offense isn't there enough to out score them, if they get takedowns. But he's been successful internationally, and could steal a win from either if he has a good day. Dieringer could pass Howe, he could also pass Dake and be more successful then Taylor. But with that, time will tell.

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On the merits yes, but US wrestling is too invested in JB's success. He is their golden boy, and he has been protected and coddled. I have always seen JB as a classic frontrunner. He is also a guy who bends the rules to win. (Go look up his match with Jordan Leen). It got exposed in this Olympics. Losing to Geduev was one thing. But should we then overlook how badly he crumbled in losing his next match? Any other athlete would be called out for giving up. Not JB. Something didn't go his way and he imploded, the poster child of US wrestling crapping out, and he is still somehow a hero.

 

Look I saw Dake go through the challenge tournament and the absurd physical disadvantage it creates not seen in any other sport, then outwrestle and beat JB in their first match and he still got screwed. Then to top it off JB did his vintage Leen match whistle jump. It was so ridiculous that Dake went off on an adventure wrestling at 86 against guys like Cox that outweigh him by 20-25 pounds and probable got reinjured because of it. Not that JB has ever had the integrity to call out the process that shielded him. That was never in his DNA as a competitor. The only consolation is that the Russians were paying attention and had a roadmap to dethroning him.

 

I would love to see your whole future, livelihood, and provision come down to one day of performance and see how you would do, straggler. It would probably be ok for you though, since I'm sure you've been the best in the WORLD at whatever it is that you do for many years now.

 

You're right though, let's throw out Jordan's career and focus on one day when evaluating his status as a wrestler. Questioning his integrity over a rule he had nothing do with is LOL funny. I suspect you are trolling, in which case you got me. Life well spent I suppose.

 

System seemed to work out well for Snyder.

Edited by steen-hooph

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Big fan of all our guys who wrestle 74 Kg. I think the future belongs to Dieringer not Dake though. As far as this upcoming year, I said it befor and I'll say it again, I think that if Jordan has the fire burning brightly enough to propel him back to the top, the other guys in the weight don't have much of a shot in my book. You can say what you want about JB, and I get it that he's not perfect, but at the end of the day Jordan is a four time Gold medalist along with his World Bronze. This is a big hill for Dake, Howe, Dieringer and others to climb. I know that one of the other posters mentioned that JB may have gotten old over night so to speak, and if that's actually the case, well then I think the door is open for someone else.

But if we look at Howe, who has done well overseas, he has a style that is a little straight forward and will need a little bit more variation before becoming a legitimate threat to win a World medal.

Dake, crazy talented, but often injured, but if he can put it altogether against JB, (and as some may suspect be in decline), who knows, maybe. But then can Dake get it done against the international guys at 74. I think Dake's overseas experience if less than Howe's. I know international experience isn't everything, but I believe it's relatively important. I know someone will immediately say but look at James Green! I understand, that international competition isn't the complete measuring stick, but still important in my book.

Dieringer, may be behind Dake and Howe for the moment, but I can see him overtaking everyone, simply because he has youth on his side. Now, if he is training hard and doing all the right things and remains injury free, I think the period leading up to the 2017 WTT, will be very telling. (But that goes for all our wrestlers as well). It will be interesting to see which overseas tourneys he attends and how he fares.

Lastly, I think Jordan is sitting at home right now absolutely bent on redemption, and barring something physical, I say to the other guys at 74, look out a train is coming.

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I think Dieringer is awesome, a bruiser, but in my opinion, he is not quite athletic enough to overtake either JB or Dake, who are by far the most athletic guys at the weight and it's not close. If JB has lost a step, I suppose anything is possible.... I just don't see Dieringer developing the catlike quickness and explosiveness that separate JB in particular and Dake to a lesser degree from the rest of the domestic guys at the weight. When everyone is well-conditioned and has elite technique, it's those little things (along with mental toughness) that make all the difference.

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It is not trolling to be critical. Every Olympian has the same pressure. This is it for four long years. JB was even being considered to bear the flag during the opening ceremony. Well that kind of acclaim comes with responsibilities. In the repechage match he lost 11-1. Maybe it was explainable due to the disappointment, but distraught or not it clearly was what it was. 

 

Having rewatched the Geduev match it is clear that the Russians studied the Dake match. In their first match during the qualifying tournament JB never got to Dake's legs at all. Dake was able to neutralize JB's offense by staying in contact and being physical. That is exactly what Geduev did. Only this time the game was not completely rigged. If Dake could do that immediately after the challenge tournament when JB had much fresher legs than someone else could too when the playing field was equal. And remember that Geduev did not even win the gold medal, so it is not like JB lost to a world beater. I predicted on this board that JB would not win the gold because the vulnerability was there and US wrestling would not be able to bail JB out. I just did not predict he would crash right out of the tournament.

 

And if we are being honest did the US qualifiers help JB or hurt him? If he was losing a step it may have been nice to find out under pressure as opposed to during the Olympics when it was too late to adjust. Real competition does not care about past results. I do not criticize JB for our stupid system. I criticize him for not using his status to try to change it. It did him no favors this time around.

 

All you can ask for is a fair competition. When the entire system is weighted to protect a spot based on past results so blatantly that challengers are being subject to physical disadvantage, overwhelming favoritism is being built in. Given how subjective freestyle rules can be, that creates an natural impulse for bias. Everyone knows who the system wants to win and who is supposed to win. Maybe a guy is so good (Snyder) that it does not matter. But in JB's case I think it did. 

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I too think the system sucks but I think you're being too critical of JB. He had a bad day. Getting life-changing new responsibilities (i.e. having a wife and two kids plus a job) was possibly a factor. We can't overthink his bad performance too much until he competes again to provide more than a single day of evidence to ponder.

 

That said, if you really did predict JB would lose, I will give you props for that because you may have been the only poster in America to have predicted that.

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Whether or not the system is fair there's little evidence that Dake would have beaten JB in the Olympic Trials finals in any version of the system. Dake is a great competitor and may one day overtake JB in my opinion but this was not likely to be his year just looking at Dake's successes and failures internationally vs JB's. 

 

That said, as I have argued many times, Dake's going up to 86kg and not wrestling JB for a year gives him the best opportunity to defeat JB going forward. This is exactly along the lines of what happened with Dave Schutlz vs Lee Kemp. Recall that Schultz moved up to 82kg (from 74kg) in 1982, made the world team and took a legit bronze while in the same year Lee Kemp won the gold. In 1983 Kemp took the year off, Schultz went back to 74kg and won gold. In 1984, when Kemp was 28 years old and Schultz was 25 they met in the Olympic trials finals and the rest was history. To that point Schultz had never defeated Kemp in any match.Then what happened? In 1988 Monday defeated Schultz and took over the mantel. Monday was born in 1961 (Schultz 1959, Kemp 1956). 

 

What I am getting at as wrestlers get into their late twenties they become more vulnerable. We see it again and again. It's at exactly that when a few years can really make a difference. As it happens JB was born in 1988 and Kyle Dake was born in 1991. This is the most likely time for Dake to overtake JB*. One further thing is that Ringer is 23, born in 1993, only a couple of years younger than Dake. 

 

 

* By the way, Taylor and Dake are almost exactly the same age. 

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I think Dieringer is awesome, a bruiser, but in my opinion, he is not quite athletic enough to overtake either JB or Dake, who are by far the most athletic guys at the weight and it's not close. If JB has lost a step, I suppose anything is possible.... I just don't see Dieringer developing the catlike quickness and explosiveness that separate JB in particular and Dake to a lesser degree from the rest of the domestic guys at the weight. When everyone is well-conditioned and has elite technique, it's those little things (along with mental toughness) that make all the difference.

I agree that Ringer is not as athletic as JB, but I think Dake and Ringer are pretty even in their athletic abilities.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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I agree that Ringer is not as athletic as JB, but I think Dake and Ringer are pretty even in their athletic abilities.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No way. Dake can be extremely slick and make you hit the rewind button to catch what he did. He is one of the most explosive guys in the US at any weight. Some of the stuff he pulls off defensively is almost incredible and impossible to teach or replicate, for example.

 

Ringer is more of a bruiser, physically strong as a bull with very sound fundamentals. But I've never been wowed by any of his moves as a display of raw athleticism. He is clearly an awesome wrestler, but I don't see him taking over the weight class for a while.

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It is not trolling to be critical. Every Olympian has the same pressure. This is it for four long years. JB was even being considered to bear the flag during the opening ceremony. Well that kind of acclaim comes with responsibilities. In the repechage match he lost 11-1. Maybe it was explainable due to the disappointment, but distraught or not it clearly was what it was. 

 

Having rewatched the Geduev match it is clear that the Russians studied the Dake match. In their first match during the qualifying tournament JB never got to Dake's legs at all. Dake was able to neutralize JB's offense by staying in contact and being physical. That is exactly what Geduev did. Only this time the game was not completely rigged. If Dake could do that immediately after the challenge tournament when JB had much fresher legs than someone else could too when the playing field was equal. And remember that Geduev did not even win the gold medal, so it is not like JB lost to a world beater. I predicted on this board that JB would not win the gold because the vulnerability was there and US wrestling would not be able to bail JB out. I just did not predict he would crash right out of the tournament.

 

And if we are being honest did the US qualifiers help JB or hurt him? If he was losing a step it may have been nice to find out under pressure as opposed to during the Olympics when it was too late to adjust. Real competition does not care about past results. I do not criticize JB for our stupid system. I criticize him for not using his status to try to change it. It did him no favors this time around.

 

All you can ask for is a fair competition. When the entire system is weighted to protect a spot based on past results so blatantly that challengers are being subject to physical disadvantage, overwhelming favoritism is being built in. Given how subjective freestyle rules can be, that creates an natural impulse for bias. Everyone knows who the system wants to win and who is supposed to win. Maybe a guy is so good (Snyder) that it does not matter. But in JB's case I think it did. 

 

facepalm

Edited by CoachWrestling

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Straggler, okay how about

option A, The champ is the top seed and gets a first round bye but competes in the mini tourney like everyone else.

option B, the champion of the mini tourney wrestles the Champ the following afternoon.

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I know this is beating a horse to death a little here, but when one of the posters said that he thought JB got old overnight, it got me wondering if what happened to JB, was the same thing that happened to Metcalf.

In 2015 Brent seemed to be rolling along, has a good World Cup, and unfortunately falls a little short at the World's. Then afterwards he competes at Yarygin, and does not do well at all. Goes to the Pan Am's and loses, although very controversially, ( so not sure if that even needs to be mentioned), but we're these warning signs of things to come? And as we know Brent goes to the trials, and loses twice, and GHulk emerges as our rep for 65.

So JB, goes to the German Grand Prix and barely beats the guy in the finals, (3-0 I believe). At first blush no one probably notices, but now with his performance at Rio I begin to wonder.

I always thought that Brent had been maintaining such tremendous training regimen that ultimately his body just wasn't able to perform anymore. Now I'm not sure what happened to JB, but could it be that he also fell victim to the same rigorous training and weight management that possibly felled Brent.

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Straggler, okay how about

option A, The champ is the top seed and gets a first round bye but competes in the mini tourney like everyone else.

option B, the champion of the mini tourney wrestles the Champ the following afternoon.

I prefer option A. However I think option B is the one that has a better chance of being implemented and is the one I have advocated in the past. Both are a clear improvement over the status quo.  

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