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3acoachinwyo

Weight cutting as a tradition.

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You are assuming that this is a possibility. The rules for weight classes are also there for safety so that Ruth does not break Megaludis in half. UFC began without weight classes and they quickly outlawed it due to safety.

I'll gladly discuss anything like this with you, but it's very unlikely that wrestling would ever be able to shake weight classes. so my statements above are indeed based on our current system of creating a level(safe) playing field.

 

The reason it will be tough to eliminate while there are weight classes, is the belief that there is a physical advantage to doing so.

But I have already noted that a jamboree format (as is commonly used with little kid tournaments) is one option, i.e. group participants in clusters of eight based on what they weigh in at. No predetermined weight to make; allows for teams to enter all of their guys, etc. So why don't we adopt that simple structure - it would solve so many problems?

 

And we all know the answer - because we want to see who is best - we want to see who is number one. We don't really care about the experience of the many or that the second stringer should have a chance to compete given that he too has spent countless hours in the room preparing (personally I think it is a shame that Iowa's second string at 125 won't get a chance to compete this year - what good is being served by not allowing that young man to compete against the best in the country?). We only care about who is number one - we certainly don't care about Clark.

 

That fixation Americans have with being number one is the hurdle; if we could get by our personal need to vicariously live through the success of another person or team, maybe we could actually see the forest in spite of the trees.

 

But we don't. And we refuse to consider other alternatives because we, as Americans, seem to think that being number one is the be-all-end-all of everything. Put simply, we need to get a life. This mentality is not part of the human natrure - it is culturally determined. I have lived in both Australia and Japan and while they are always ready to celebrate and have pride in the success of a fellow country-person, they have the whole thing in a far better perspective than we do.

 

P.S. wanna enjoy life? Go live in Australia. - they have it figured out.

 

We don't have to have predetrermined weights; we don't have to find out who is the absolute best. But we choose to do so, and in doing so, we create problems like cutting excessive amounts of weight and making the sport a death march for many of its particiopants and simply shrugging our shoulders about it and and saying, "that's just the way it is - there is no other way."

 

I'm saying that's BS.

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Guys who put an extraordinary amount of sacrifice, energy, and time into a sport do not want to find out if they are as good as 3 other guys who are near their weight; they want to test their skills against the best guys out there. npope, do you honestly think making college wrestling a jamboree format where you simply wrestle a few guys who are close to your size will transform the sport into something more exciting than it is now? Also, why wouldnt wrestlers cut weight in a jamboree format anyway? When you take the cutting edge of competitions out of meets, you will also eliminate cutting edge competitors; they will simply move to a different sport.

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The jamboree idea was in response to the comment that things can't be any different; the point is that they can be. Maybe not better, but different. As I have said multiple times, all things have to be on the table to change the system; if we are locked in to some aspect that simply cannot be discussed then we will be looking back fondly on our sport 20 years from now, much in the way that NCAA boxing enthusiasts nostalgically reflect on the halcyon days of that sport.

 

As for your notion that setting up a system that doesn't necessarily pit the best kids against one another will drive away the very best wrestlers...I say goodbye and hello. Hello to the likely many new participants in an activity that is not so terribly fixated on ascertaining who is number one. We might lose the top guys, but we will just as likely be pulling in massive more participants (including possibly women) who are there for reasons other than "being the best." Who's to say which motive is a healthier perspective?

 

You've got some international exposure, olddirty - do you know of any other country - any country, that spontaneously breaks into a "We're number one" chant when one of their countrymen win a match? Doesn't that seem the least bit odd to you in terms of comparing our culture with others? Nobody - and I mean nobody, has such a deep seated need to reaffirm their greatness than we Americans. And we do it through the exploits of individuals competing in athletic events. Now how silly is that, I ask you?

 

If we continue to indulge our need to be "number-one" complex, and those similar aspirations of our extraordinary athletes, we may very well find no sport to compete in come 20 years from now. Folkstyle wrestling will have gone the way of NCAA boxing. Wrestling will be reduced to a club sport in the U.S.

 

The current model for folkstyle wrestling at the collegiate level is sinking; excessive weight cutting is just one of the reasons; but it is sinking, none-the-less. It needs to change, and I think all possibilities should be put on the table - including eliminating the motivations for excessive weight loss.

 

BTW olddirty, how many guys win the Boston Marathon? How many guys participate? Just wondering.

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do you know of any other country - any country, that spontaneously breaks into a "We're number one" chant when one of their countrymen win a match?

 

In the wrestling world, I'm pretty sure there are a half dozen other countries with more vocal and ridiculous fan bases than we have. Iranian fans blow horns and such when one of their wrestlers names is merely announced.

 

You may be right, however, that Americans are obsessed with being number one (even though curiously we are not #1 in wrestling). But it should come as no surprise then that we are the most powerful country in the world. Without a strong desire to be the best at something, the overall level of achievement is much lower. What if Steve Jobs had said he wanted Apple to be a really good company when compared to a random selection of 3 or 4 companies? One that made computers that worked, but didn't require much commitment on his part? It's human nature for elite competitors (either athletic or other) to try and be the best.

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He is a full sized 165lber, who is adding mass by growing. He goes up in weight between seasons because he is growing out of the previous weight. Every season they have had a difficult time keeping in his early season weight class.

He's not cutting is he? Isn't that what we are debating - the value of cutting? If growin into your weight class is your proposal then I fear I have been wasting signficant amounts of my day at this keyboard debating you on a matter that we already would seem to agree upon.

 

Boy, do I feel foolish.

 

He's definitely cutting weight. He's as big as any of them out there (and literally getting bigger again) except for a handful of them like Caldwell who came down from wrestling 174.

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In the wrestling world, I'm pretty sure there are a half dozen other countries with more vocal and ridiculous fan bases than we have. Iranian fans blow horns and such when one of their wrestlers names is merely announced.

 

Crazy fans - definitely yes. We're number one? No way. There is a difference. One extrapolates from the singular experience of one competitor or team, the other merely lives vicariously through the exploits of one of its countrymen. There's a difference.

 

Attributing the success of guys like Jobs to our deep seated insecurities as an international power (at the end of the American Century) may be a bit of a reach; I'm not sure. There are driven people in all countries, I am not entirely sure that Jobs would have broken out in a "We're number one" chant if Apple were to have definitively supplanted HP or Dell.

 

American Exceptionalism...real or imagined...or merely hoped for. I'm not sure on that one. But I am sure that Jobs wouldn't have cut weight - does that get us back on target here?

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He's definitely cutting weight. He's as big as any of them out there (and literally getting bigger again) except for a handful of them like Caldwell who came down from wrestling 174.

 

Others on this forum say he isn't cutting at all to make 165. Doesn't he know that he would be a better wrestler down at 157?

 

Anyway...

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Others on this forum say he isn't cutting at all to make 165.

 

Depends on what you mean by cutting weight. If you mean does he drop somewhere between 5-10 pounds of water immediately before a weigh in, then he is almost assuredly cutting. It would be truly remarkable if he's walking around at 165 while eating and drinking and hops on the scale to make weight without doing anything. What Dake isn't doing this year is severe cutting, which would involve strict dieting, and tons of extra workouts to get his weight to within 10, at which point he can cut the final 10. That's what he would need to do to make 157. So it's all cutting, but one is more brutal than the other. The only guys not cutting anything in college are guys that for whatever reason are wrestling up a weight to fit in the lineup.

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I am not entirely sure that Jobs would have broken out in a "We're number one" chant if Apple were to have definitively supplanted HP or Dell.

Hard to say. He was known to be an ego driven maniac that would berate employees for not working hard enough or being too dumb. So he may well have broken down in a We're Number One chant, at least in private.

 

 

But I am sure that Jobs wouldn't have cut weight -

Although I could make the argument that cutting weight to gain a size and strength advantage (which could potentially help or potentially backfire) is analogous to shipping manufacturing costs of computers and phones overseas to China to get cheap slave labor and reduce costs compared to companies that keep jobs in the US.

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Again, why not just move to matside weigh-ins? This is the best way to address weight cutting. You actually have to wrestle at the weight of your weight class. If you want to be 8-10lbs dehydrated starting a match, go for it.

 

Odds are matside weigh-ins with no time to re-coup would nearly eliminate cutting weight.

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Matside doesn't resolve to the tournament format and the ensuing chaos of people continually trying to keep their weight perfect and in alignment with mat assignments, gear, etc.. I am not saying it isn't possible and most certainly healthier for the athletes.

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Again, why not just move to matside weigh-ins? This is the best way to address weight cutting. You actually have to wrestle at the weight of your weight class. If you want to be 8-10lbs dehydrated starting a match, go for it.

 

Odds are matside weigh-ins with no time to re-coup would nearly eliminate cutting weight.

 

I think that idea has significant merit; really should be more critically considered. One reason why it has never gained momentum (IMO) is that coaches really want to have the flexibility to have their kids truly suck weight. While coaches may not aspire to sucking down their kids, they may still want the ability to do so if it suits their purposes.

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I am a big proponent of mat-side weigh-ins at the youth level, not so sure about college but I wouldn't be against it at that level. It's crazy what some parents have their young kids do.

 

As for Dake, two years ago in the post match interview after his win at 149 in the NCAA's, the interviewer asked him about his weight and he said he weighed 170ish for his finals match. And he looks much bigger now.

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I am not of the belief that matside weigh-ins would have ANY effect on cutting.......... wouldn't have had any on me. And I DID cut hard, been told my pics back then looked like I was in a concentration camp. The best result from my cutting hard was, as a coach I could recognize it much better than my coaches were able to and tell a kid......NO you are not cutting that far. I think most coaches CAN see it nowdays.

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I am not of the belief that matside weigh-ins would have ANY effect on cutting.......... wouldn't have had any on me.

Matside weigh ins might present a logistical nightmare, but they would absolutely have an effect. The two options a wrestler would face at a tournament, would be to either wrestle at a weight class that they can comfortably maintain all day for repeated weigh ins before bouts, or stay sucked down all day. If they choose the latter, their performance will be orders of magnitude less than what it would be under the current weigh in rules. Imagine wrestling your 5th match of the day at 7pm, having stayed sucked down all day with no fluid recovery and multiple bouts. It would have an effect one way or another.

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When I see the Russians, Iranians or some other European/Asian country whip us in International competition, I see them do it with bodies far less ripped than our wrestlers'. I have noticed that as far back as the 80s. Wrestling in its best form is a tecnhique and endurance sport.

 

Power (by cutting to a weight that allows you to be "bigger") and size are elements but without technique you won't reach the higher levels.

 

Burroughs and Varner win withour big cuts. Sure, they are in great shape but it isn't the result of cutting but fitness.

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Others on this forum say he isn't cutting at all to make 165.

 

Depends on what you mean by cutting weight. If you mean does he drop somewhere between 5-10 pounds of water immediately before a weigh in, then he is almost assuredly cutting. It would be truly remarkable if he's walking around at 165 while eating and drinking and hops on the scale to make weight without doing anything. What Dake isn't doing this year is severe cutting, which would involve strict dieting, and tons of extra workouts to get his weight to within 10, at which point he can cut the final 10. That's what he would need to do to make 157. So it's all cutting, but one is more brutal than the other. The only guys not cutting anything in college are guys that for whatever reason are wrestling up a weight to fit in the lineup.

 

I remember Ryan Churella writing about his NCAA tournament one year (I think the year he went to the finals). If I recall correctly, he wrote that he ate normally and did not have to cut during to make weight on the second and third days. Maybe someone else remembers this, or has a link?

 

Matside weigh-ins would pretty much solve the weight-cutting issue.

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When I see the Russians, Iranians or some other European/Asian country whip us in International competition, I see them do it with bodies far less ripped than our wrestlers'. I have noticed that as far back as the 80s. Wrestling in its best form is a tecnhique and endurance sport.

 

Power (by cutting to a weight that allows you to be "bigger") and size are elements but without technique you won't reach the higher levels.

 

Burroughs and Varner win withour big cuts. Sure, they are in great shape but it isn't the result of cutting but fitness.

 

AbbasJadidi.jpg

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Right after that picture was taken Kurt Appeared at Ken Chertow's in Happy Valley for a camp. Not only did he not cut for the Olympics but he actually built up into the wgt. This from his own speech to the young people. He explained a lot of the program concerning how your "best" wgt can be chosen and stressed being the most fit through aerobics, and iso as well as the standard run lift drill roll.

 

At the time he was adamant about kids avoiding steaming and saunas in baggies. The crowd of parents asking questions was impressive but the old mustache Pete coaches for the most part claimed BS. He also wrestled entire wgt groups 10 or more on 1 for the little guys and 5 or6 to 1 for the HS kids.He wrestled every kid who stepped out on the mat. At that point in time he was, in my opinion , the quintessential role model for kids. Everyone of those kids hung on his every word and had the best week of their young lives.

 

Over time many came on here to disparage some of his later choices. For me the picture is him and a crowd of little crumb crunchers, including my two boys battling it out. They still remember it and loved watching him on fake wrestling. Kurt is one of 4 US wrestlers to win the Grand slam. Jun Nats, NCAA, World champ and Oly champ . Many are unaware that Angle was recovering from two fractured cervical vertebrae and rupturing 2 cervical discs at the Olympic trials in July 5 months prior to winning over Jaddidi on an officials decision.

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Great thoughts in here. I love the matside weigh-in idea, but then you risk many other things like even sipping water before a match could put you over, or maybe not, if guys were fully hydrated all the time.

 

I see weight-cutting declining, and many HS coaches I know are all about the lift/grow strategy. Also, parents need to understand not eating deep fried food every day and two pizzas and ice-cream for dinner isn't really weight cutting.

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I am not of the belief that matside weigh-ins would have ANY effect on cutting.......... wouldn't have had any on me.

Matside weigh ins might present a logistical nightmare, but they would absolutely have an effect. The two options a wrestler would face at a tournament, would be to either wrestle at a weight class that they can comfortably maintain all day for repeated weigh ins before bouts, or stay sucked down all day. If they choose

 

Maybe a good point if you had to weigh in for EVERY match at a tourney.....had not considered that.

I was thinking one weigh in before your first match of the day.

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Maybe a good point if you had to weigh in for EVERY match at a tourney.....had not considered that.

I was thinking one weigh in before your first match of the day.

Yes, if matside weigh-ins were implemented you would weigh in before every match. That would be the whole point. Otherwise it wouldn't accomplish anything. The idea would be there would be a scale next to the mat, and both competitors would step on it, while wearing shoes, singlet, and ready to go. The ref would check the weight, and then they would shake hands and wrestle. For each and every match. It would revolutionize the concept of what weight to wrestle. Many guys would actually start wrestling at whatever their natural weight was. If you weigh 164 while hydrated and wearing shoes and singlet, you'd probably wrestle 165 at a tournament whereas normally you'd be going 157.

 

Guys could still cut weight if they wanted, but the risks would be higher. Wrestling has always been about beating an opponent of equal size, so it's a little silly that you can weigh in at 149 in the morning, wrestle a few matches probably weighing in the 150s, and then wrestle a guy at night weighing 170. The weight class doesn't mean anything anymore. Matside weigh-ins would guarantee that both competitors weigh the same when the match begins.

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