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Cadet Worlds: Greco

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Day 1 preliminary action at Cadet Worlds is wrapping up now.  In the first of two Greco days, we get Jack Davis at 58kg to the bronze medal match with a couple victories on the day.  Our other 4 weights go a combined 1-4, with none brought into the repechage rounds.

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Lindland needs for these guys to do well. We had a terrible showing at the Olympics.

 

His whole strategy revolves around our young guys, so he has been mostly forgiven for the Olympics. We had a better than expected showing in Juniors as well, which has helped his case. We need to show up here to help this argument along. 

 

If we can get 2 medals, I expect for him to be happy.

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Not to be Debbie Downer, but I don't know that a free pass is deserved for our Senior team.  We had a 2x world medalist and a 2x world 5th completely underachieve (save the excuse about tough draws--failing to improve placement is failure to improve placement).  As a whole, the team could neither apply nor defend a gut wrench, the experienced guys included.  The overall performance was painfully bad.

 

Regarding our juniors, our medals came from guys who were hammers in the making already (Lamont in the bronze bout at Cadets the year before and Hancock medaling in senior level events). What did the rest of the team do?  A solid coach can bring those on the cusp over the top, but a great coach creates the unexpected from the overlooked or previously underdeveloped.

 

So I think the performance of the Cadets is especially important to see how Lindland is shaping the program.  Still very early in the Lindland regime, but this will be telling as far as what has been accomplished so far.  JMHO

Edited by Coach_J

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I don't agree with judging performances based solely on placement at world and Olympic events. I don't think it's helpful. Better to take a holistic approach. Is the wrestler more or less prepared to compete for the Olympics and what else could or should Lindland have done to prepare them. 

 

the idea that results are the only thing that matter and the only thing a coach should be judged on is a horrible idea (imo) brought over from pro sports. the main differences with pro sports (eg MLB, NFL, NBA etc) are you often get results that are more closely related to coaching performance (but not always) and fans (ie customers) to appease that may have very poor skills as performance analysis. 

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So if we don't use results, what do we use?  Was the complete inability to apply or defend a gut wrench an appropriate measure of their preparation?  The fact that they couldn't score any takedowns?

 

Outside the coach, the bigger question is how are we allocating our resources?  Cuba has just over 11 million people and pitiful resources and was the best in the world.  We have bigger and better wrestling rooms, weight rooms, doctors, dietitians, a college program at NMU, etc.  We did win a greco world team title in my lifetime, so there is a precedent for success, and yet now our results stink.

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So if we don't use results, what do we use?  Was the complete inability to apply or defend a gut wrench an appropriate measure of their preparation?  The fact that they couldn't score any takedowns?

you don't have to ignore results but just use them as a starting point. who their competition was and how they did against them - so they examples you give sound like great places to look next. 

 

 

Outside the coach, the bigger question is how are we allocating our resources?  Cuba has just over 11 million people and pitiful resources and was the best in the world.  We have bigger and better wrestling rooms, weight rooms, doctors, dietitians, a college program at NMU, etc.  

yes Cuba is a fascinating example. If all it took was getting their coaches, though, why don't we just hire them? would Cuban coaches be able to replicate their success in America? How many athletes can Cuban coaches get into their Cuban greco program? what other sports or opportunities are diverting Cuban athletes from greco? how much choice do the individual Cuban athletes even have in the matter?

 

Clearly there has to be something that allows Cuba to make up for the disparity in funding and facilities, but I believe it is far more than quality of coaches (although I'm not saying that has nothing to do with it). 

 

 

We did win a greco world team title in my lifetime, so there is a precedent for success, and yet now our results stink.

But the competitive environment has drastically changed since then and other programs have drastically changed and improved since then. Our current coaches have no control over Iran, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Russia, etc and their ability to raise the quality of their wrestlers. Trying to hold coaches in 2016 to results from the 70's, 80's and 90's is not fair, nor reasonable. 

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We did win a greco world team title in my lifetime, so there is a precedent for success, and yet now our results stink.

 

 

But the competitive environment has drastically changed since then and other programs have drastically changed and improved since then. Our current coaches have no control over Iran, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Russia, etc and their ability to raise the quality of their wrestlers. Trying to hold coaches in 2016 to results from the 70's, 80's and 90's is not fair, nor reasonable. 

 

Dude we won a Greco-Roman World Team title in 2007. Hamid Soryan, Mijain Lopez, Mark Madsen, Ghasem Rezaei, and Mijain Lopez were all competing back then, its not like that took place a long time ago in a galaxy far far away in which everyone was wearing low cut singlets.

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Lindland needs for these guys to do well...seriously?  How many hours has Lindland had a chance to work with the cadet team?  I don't think you can compare our national coaches to coaches who get to impact their wrestlers all year or at least all wrestling season.  

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to be fair, Lindland has worked with Schultz a bunch over the past year or two... as in has convinced him to quit folk and full time greco...

 

the results did not show that this morning, but, results are not the be all end all for a cadet...

 

the senior level is entirely results based...

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to be fair, Lindland has worked with Schultz a bunch over the past year or two... as in has convinced him to quit folk and full time greco...

 

the results did not show that this morning, but, results are not the be all end all for a cadet...

 

the senior level is entirely results based...

Exactly why I like the state of Greco in the US. It would be a shame to ruin a promising career

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Well I'm sure Coach Lindland is feeling the pressure to produce. And he knows what it will take to get it done since he did it himself. So I'm am not too worried with our recent results. If things don't turn around for us, I'm sure Coach Lindland will implement the changes needed to become more successful. As far as our Cadets are concerned, it's kind of hard to judge. These kids in these other programs in other countries may, or have been strictly wrestling Greco for some time now, and because of this, just may have the advantage of time and experience.

I guess my question is, ( just like it is with all our wrestling programs ), is how do we stack up to the programs the other successful countries run? Now I am sure that the brain trust of USA Wrestling, looks and analyses what the other successful countries do to train and get their athletes prepared. So where are we in compared to them, and if we are running a program that is similar to these other programs, why are they consistently more successful?

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As Smedley pointed out, we were greco world champs less than a decade ago, so that's not comparing today to the 70s, 80s, or 90s.  One official I discussed this with said we are not recruiting the same base-level athlete to greco we once were--guys like Durlacher, Warren, Ruiz, Vering, etc. were very competitive D-I wrestlers while guys like Lester and Byers had that ability level.  Our greco teams aren't drawing that type of guy with the same frequency or consistency.

 

Regarding Cuba, I had the pleasure of having Alberto Rodriguez as an assistant for one year and have known him for 20 (he is a 2x World Games bronze, World Cup champion, and Pan Am champ with wins over Monday and Schultz).  Cuba's best athletes are drawn to baseball, track,and boxing before wrestling, so they are dealing with the same talent drain we have but with a drastically smaller pool to draw from.  As he told me, at their senior nationals he might have 6-10 men in his weight.  

 

We can make excuses for our poor recent performances, but I'm not buying it.  And here's a question:  why is the NMU team going to Panama for a tournament?  What is the point of that?  Wouldn't it be better to hit something in Europe?  I'm not seeing how this fits in with a coherent program of grooming our future greco contenders.

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When at one point own national resources are not very effective and there is the possibility of using a positive resource from another country (other than Cuba or is Japan not matter) I believe that it is lawful and proper to use this opportunity for growth.

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coach momir is from serbia... coach ahad was from iran...

 

we already do this and it does not show in the results...

 

the main problem is our kids do greco 2-3 months a year and our hamstrung by a lifetime of being taught how to stall out and ride while the rest of the world focuses on the real styles of wrestling...

 

cant expect much success when you consider that...

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Yes, that's exactly what I said.

how much of a difference would having the cuban coaches here in America make? if not much, what are the other factors? and are those factors under the control of the USA head coach? if not, why are we holding him accountable for these uncontrollable factors?

 

all questions but the 1st one are rhetorical. 

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I understand what a rhetorical question is and, get this, I can even identify one, but you've missed my point entirely.  You don't need Cuban coaches to understand and/or employ their method of training wrestlers--that's what's important, the method, not that it's done by a Cuban guy (or a Russian, Bulgarian, Iranian, Turk, Azeri, etc.).  A head coach should have studied successful programs and methods of training the world over, observing, studying, picking people's brains.  He should bring a solid base but also explore new and developing methods.  And it will take years.  That said, the Rio team actually regressed from the year before.  Growing pains?  Adjusting to a new system?  I guess we'll see, but if we're being honest it was not a grand entrance.

 

And in answer to the non-rhetorical question, I think the Cuban coaches or Americans coaches borrowing from the Cuban system would have made a difference, even if a small one (scoring one takedown or completing one gutwrench).

Edited by Coach_J

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