Storniolo idea on mini-tournaments

[nom 1,209]

Listening to the T-Row and Funky show today, they had Northwestern head coach Matt Storniolo on.  Storniolo discussed that he isn't a fan of duals.  He'd propose replacing some of them with mini-tournaments.  Believes they'd be more fan friendly and more cost effective.  Listen to the show, it's interesting.

 

But basically, he'd propose 4 teams get together, with each being able to enter 2 wrestlers, and hold a mini tournament.  8 person brackets.   Not sure if there would be wrestle backs or not.  

 

On the one hand, with the travel involved in competition, the wrestler will wrestle more than one match.  Also, you'd expect more folks in the stands with 80 competitors and four teams there. 

 

On the other hand, traveling with 20 wrestlers is a lot and would increase the cost of travel I'd figure.  Unless total travel days are cut through fewer competition days.  Also, teams will not be able to say team A beat team B.  I suppose there could be some mini-tournament scoring but not quite the same as saying my team beat your team.  

 

I think the idea has some merit.  Storniolo said he is looking for feedback and if enough folks think its a good idea, he'd look to try to test and learn next year.  

 

I'm in the camp of saying to give it a try.

 

Let's discuss!

[preceptor 19]

In my opinion, the only way to grow the sport is to foster methods that support the idea of supporting programs. If you look at the successful sports it's about team support not individual support. We have to find ways to get people to support programs. If I only follow an individual athlete then I'm only interested in four years. We need to generate fans of programs. Individual sports will always be fringe sports.

[wrestlingnerd 3,012]

In my opinion, the only way to grow the sport is to foster methods that support the idea of supporting programs. If you look at the successful sports it's about team support not individual support. We have to find ways to get people to support programs. If I only follow an individual athlete then I'm only interested in four years. We need to generate fans of programs. Individual sports will always be fringe sports.

 

Couldn't agree more. Great post.

[wnywrestling 71]

I'm not a fan of all-day tournaments and support replacing those with mini-tournaments.

[SetonHallPirate 993]

Matt Storniolo is, in my opinion, wrong. Dual meets are not only fan-friendly, but they're also television-friendly, in a way such mini-tournaments would not be. Also, I suspect there would be pushback from some coaches who would think it is too hard on their wrestlers.

 

That said, last time Northwestern wrestled Penn State in Evanston, they didn't mention an attendance figure, but the time before that, a whopping 719 fans showed up. No, I'm not making that figure up, or forgetting a zero somewhere. When Iowa wrestled in Evanston last year, attendance was 960. Given those numbers, and I'm guessing a large number of those fans were rooting for the opposing school, I could understand that sort of stance from Storniolo, wrong as it may be (in my opinion).

Edited October 20, 2016 by SetonHallPirate

[gowrestle 697]

I disagree. In NJ there are duals that close the door because the gym becomes filled to capacity. Until college wrestling figures out how to develop that degree of fan interest, the sport will continue its trend to oblivion.

Edited October 20, 2016 by gowrestle

[tigerfan9311 223]

Stupid idea.  In duals, every match matters.  Fans can tell from the rankings, (or with help from a good announcer) which matches are toss-ups, must wins, and where to hope for bonus points.  It's vital to get the best performance possible from each member of your TEAM.  That builds excitement and drama.  How many times have you seen a back-up go against a defending champ, or AA and fight to a major or tech fall, avoiding the pin and the crowd is cheering because they know he saved the team an important point?  Storniolo's mini tournament idea is silly.  I would assume you'd have the backups paired with the starters in the first round.  Who cares if you your returning AA majors or techs their backup?  Big deal.  And you'd have no idea of any TEAM implications at that point, even if you could figure out a scoring rubric that made sense.

 

Northwestern is a team of individuals and has been for a decade.  Doesn't look like Storniolo looks to change that culture much. 

[BobDole 1,231]

Only the top 5 teams sell out duals, all others call it a good day when 500 fans show up.

 

People tend to live in a fantasy world where they think everyone has the following of Iowa, Penn State, or Okie State. 

[gowrestle 697]

Only the top 5 teams sell out duals, all others call it a good day when 500 fans show up.

 

People tend to live in a fantasy world where they think everyone has the following of Iowa, Penn State, or Okie State.

Agreed. But Storniolo's proposal will not increase fan interest.

[rlw028 106]

I think a lot of you guys are missing the boat on what he said.

 

He mentioned cost/APR as being 2 things that kill college programs. This would decrease travel, which would in turn cost the programs less money in travel, as well as less time away from the classroom which would hopefully translate to better grades.

 

I'm not 100% sold on his idea, but I see how this would help save money/keep kids from missing class.

 

In addition, he thinks attendance would improve as there would be 8 sets of parents per weights as opposed to 2. Bob mentioned above that 500 fans is a good showing for most programs, and this would hopefully garner more people in the stands.

[T-nigs23 90]

Stupid idea. In duals, every match matters. Fans can tell from the rankings, (or with help from a good announcer) which matches are toss-ups, must wins, and where to hope for bonus points. It's vital to get the best performance possible from each member of your TEAM. That builds excitement and drama. How many times have you seen a back-up go against a defending champ, or AA and fight to a major or tech fall, avoiding the pin and the crowd is cheering because they know he saved the team an important point? Storniolo's mini tournament idea is silly. I would assume you'd have the backups paired with the starters in the first round. Who cares if you your returning AA majors or techs their backup? Big deal. And you'd have no idea of any TEAM implications at that point, even if you could figure out a scoring rubric that made sense.

 

Northwestern is a team of individuals and has been for a decade. Doesn't look like Storniolo looks to change that culture much.

Why not have the backups wrestle each other in a sort of pigtails round. starters will have a bye til the round of 4. then have the two winners of the pigtails wrestle a starter from an opposing school so they avoid going up against their teammate. Imagine if a backup who otherwise wouldntve had the oppourtunity caught fire and beat out some noteworthy starters. I could see how the chance of your starter losing to a backup might scare some coaches but from a fan perspective that would be fun to watch. Just a thought though. Edited October 20, 2016 by T-nigs23

[KTG119 820]

other than the back ups getting matches, is there any advantage to this idea over just having a good old quad? 

[SetonHallPirate 993]

I think a lot of you guys are missing the boat on what he said.

 

He mentioned cost/APR as being 2 things that kill college programs. This would decrease travel, which would in turn cost the programs less money in travel, as well as less time away from the classroom which would hopefully translate to better grades.

 

I'm not 100% sold on his idea, but I see how this would help save money/keep kids from missing class.

 

In addition, he thinks attendance would improve as there would be 8 sets of parents per weights as opposed to 2. Bob mentioned above that 500 fans is a good showing for most programs, and this would hopefully garner more people in the stands.

How would it decrease travel? Teams have 16 dates of competition (if any of those are either duals on back-to-back dates or a two-day tournament, the first two of those count as a single date), regardless of whether there is one match or twenty-five on each of those dates. Problem is, instead of having half of the teams at home, as you have for duals, you'd have one-quarter of the teams at home, meaning, if a team wrestles 12 mini-tournaments instead of 12 duals, they'd now have three home dates instead of six.

 

If he wants to talk about cutting the number of dates, that's another argument. But otherwise, to quote Brian Smith on a totally different topic, "that's just stupid...that's just stupid".

[Pinnum 846]

I would want to have a system that supported individuals if I was coaching Northwestern too.  Over the last ten years they have done a great job of producing individuals but struggled with the depth needed to built a competitive dual program. 

 

Of course, that is a different thing that advocating for what is good for college wrestling as a whole.

[rlw028 106]

How would it decrease travel? Teams have 16 dates of competition (if any of those are either duals on back-to-back dates or a two-day tournament, the first two of those count as a single date), regardless of whether there is one match or twenty-five on each of those dates. Problem is, instead of having half of the teams at home, as you have for duals, you'd have one-quarter of the teams at home, meaning, if a team wrestles 12 mini-tournaments instead of 12 duals, they'd now have three home dates instead of six.

 

If he wants to talk about cutting the number of dates, that's another argument. But otherwise, to quote Brian Smith on a totally different topic, "that's just stupid...that's just stupid".

 

SHP, part of his argument was to decrease dates as well, I should have mentioned that in my original post.

[wnywrestling 71]

SHP, part of his argument was to decrease dates as well, I should have mentioned that in my original post.

 

At 32:45 he says there will be less dates to save money, decrease weigh-ins, keep kids in classroom (& thus increase APR). Then at 35:30, he suggests going from approx. 12 duals to 6, promoting each event that much more & making each one more special.

[aknipp 131]

I also think it a solid idea.  Esp with some planning, you can do IL/NW/NC/NCState (either in IL or NC).  Then mix teams that allow a short commute and 2 long.  IMHO, this is better than NU doing a friday at NC and then a Sunday at NCS (plus a meet with IL) 

 

If this was done on a Saturday, 1 day of school is missed. I also like the idea of including backups, who typically get time in open tournaments and that is it. With backups, travel budget may still get hit pretty hard, but teams typically bring some backups anyway, don't they?

[wnywrestling 71]

So let's say there are 4 teams.  In a quadrangular dual, you would wrestle 3 starters, one from each of the 3 other teams. You'll always get 3 matches against other starters.

 

In a Storniolo mini-tournament (aka "Storn"ament?), you will never get 3 matches against other starters.  Instead, you'll wrestle a backup in the round of 8, and then if you win (and other starters win too), a starter in the semis and finals.  So, best case you'll get 2 matches against other starters.

 

Worst case, you lose first round & just get one match against a backup. Or, if you win, you might get stuck wrestling the backup from your own team in the finals. Seems like that might happen a lot with the deeper teams.

Edited October 21, 2016 by wnywrestling

[Jaroslav Hasek 2,067]

I'm all for being creative with tournaments and events (moar round robins please), but I really don't like it as a complete substitute for dual meets.

[de4856 379]

I like the idea. I think that it would be useful early in the season. Now I'm not saying that we are to replace duals or tournaments, I'm just saying if you had one or two of these scheduled early in the year, it could be beneficial for the wrestlers, especially the number 2's, the coaching staff, and family and fans.

Edited October 27, 2016 by de4856

[scribe 1,848]

You could have a mini dual tournament to help with travel and schedule, etc... Same thing as mini individual tournamnet, same number of teams, fewer bouts for backups (which wouldn't kill fan interest anyhow)

[LemonPie 1,368]

Basically the old Oklahoma Open.  I don't know that there ever was a worse tournament.

[Pinnum 846]

Basically the old Oklahoma Open.  I don't know that there ever was a worse tournament.

 

Riveting entertainment.

 

http://www.soonersports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?ATCLID=208403712

[KTG119 820]

didn't Minnesota do a similar event in Hawaii and a few years back?

[NYWRESTLER94 221]

didn't Minnesota do a similar event in Hawaii and a few years back?

they skipped out on the scuffle for it. I believe it was a round robin individual tournament though. Does that event still even exist?