Way Too Early Hodge Talk...

[treep2000 1,140]

Hey y'all... 

 

The PSU vs. tOSU thread got me thinking... 

 

yes... it's way too early to be talking about it, so let's do it anyway. 

 

Who's your early season favorite at this point?  Much can be said about Zain and Nolf potentially running away with this, but I HAVE to throw Snyder into the mix as well.  My Top 3, as of the day after Turkey Day are:

 

1.) Zain

2.) Snyder

3.) Nolf

 

Here's why:

1.) Zain:  Prolific point scorer and completely dominant at 149.  149 is a "solid" weight class, as the top 5-6 guys are all "solid" wrestlers.  No, it's not 184... but it's a strong weight class, and Zain has the opportunity to potentially bonus every single match in a "solid" weight class.

2.) Snyder:  Undersized HWT, returning OLY and World Champion, and the very real possibility of bonusing in every single match.  HWT appears to be "weaker" this year, with the RS of Coon, and the loss of Dhesi for the season.   However, with Medberry and Walz, the only two in my mind that can keep it "close" with Snyder, he will have his hands full.  IF he bonuses Medberry and Walz on his way to his 2nd Title, I'm finding a VERY difficult argument to NOT give him the Hodge, considering the overall dominance he will have displayed, along with the credentials brought in across the board.

3.)  Nolf:  He will probably have the "most dominant" wrestler title, and can definitely foresee him bonusing in all his matches this year.  Why?  157 is "comparatively weak".  The sheer fact that folks are saying that Ryan from tOSU may be a R12 guy should be indicative of where this weight class is, this year.  I do think there is "young talent" in 157, it's just that I perceive 157 to be comparatively weaker than 149 and HWT.  

 

Thoughts?  

[Jasonmitchell32 244]

"Zain"

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LemonPie 1,368]

Snyder won't be at Vegas if he's going to Ukraine.  He won't be be at a handful of duals.  I don't see how you can give him the Hodge.  I'm sorry, but his credentials just don't factor in. 

[LoStNuMbEr 320]

Snyder just got pins #2 and #3 of his college career the other day.  I can't possibly imagine him being in the conversation, especially given that he's projected to miss a lot of time to focus on Freestyle

[LemonPie 1,368]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_JFbQx7Nji4re0zf4W4pdlTmyX1MVyOcwPRx6XXT-T4/edit?usp=sharing

 

I've been tinkering with a system of Points For/7 minutes and Points Against/7 minutes that accounts for pins   This works by recording the time of pin and adjusting the points in the scoring sequence at time of pin.  For example, in Bo Nickal's match vs. Army, the scoring sequence is recorded as 6-0, and at 25 seconds.  Takedown and 4 nearfall.   Defensive falls do not count for nearfall, and other factors will sometimes come into play.  For example, Kade Moss recorded a fall at the 5-minute mark at the Keystone classic.  After watching video, had he not secured a fall, he would have not received a full count for 4 points before the period expired.  Therefore, I only scored him 2 nearfall for that particular scoring sequence. 

 

Formula is as follows 

 

Points For/7 minutes = (420 seconds/# Seconds wrestled)*Points scored adjusted

 

Points Against/7 minutes = (420 seconds/#seconds wrestled)*Points against adjusted

 

PD/7 minutes= PF-PA

 

Zain- PF/7minutes- 28.02

         PA/7minutes- 3.42

         PD/7minutes- 24.59

 

Jason- PF/7minutes- 32.59

            PA/7minutes- 11.30

            PD/7minutes- 21.29

 

Zain has the dominance edge over Nolf right now, but Jason has had better competition.   Zain and Nolf on Sheet 2 of the document. 

Edited November 25, 2016 by LemonPie

[hammerlockthree 2,635]

Snyder just got pins #2 and #3 of his college career the other day.  I can't possibly imagine him being in the conversation, especially given that he's projected to miss a lot of time to focus on Freestyle

 

 

The guy with no feet won the hodge (Ackerman?) its not a very principled award in terms of honoring the criteria.

 

Snyder should win it this year and should have won it last year. What he is doing is unprecedented. I know the comparison seems inflammatory but if they gave the junior hodge to some kid from alaska who was 60-0 with 58 pins, everyone would say it was ridiculous.

 

Snyder is on a higher level. 

[unbiased 516]

Nickal

6 matches 6 falls. Hard to beat this.

Obviously it might change but that's what happens when there is way too early talk.

[hammerlockthree 2,635]

Nickal

6 matches 6 falls. Hard to beat this.

Obviously it might change but that's what happens when there is way too early talk.

 

actually its easy to beat because gabe dean is at his weight and just destroyed the last guy to beat nickal in folk.

Edited November 25, 2016 by hammerlockthree

[headshuck 2,604]

Yes it's way too early but I can't imagine Snyder not getting it regardless of number of pins.  His scores on the other criteria are off the charts.

[ironmonkey 157]

Zain

[de4856 371]

Well, I like all three suggestions, but for me it has to be Kyle Snyder. Actually I thought based on what Kyle accomplished last year should've earned him the trophy, but they went with the very talented Alex Dieringer, which was also a excellent choice. However,getting back to this year, what about Gade Dean ? Shouldn't he be in the conversation ? Jumping back to Zain though, I am a huge fan of the Zain Train, and I believe that he will march through this season virtually unopposed. But what I really what to see is what he can do on the Senior level, and does he inherit or wrest the mantle away from Molinaro at 65Kg, and is he capable of getting the USA back on the podium at this weight class. Anyway I am looking forward to this season getting underway in ernest, and can't wait to see how this all plays out.

[bwh27 31]

Well, I like all three suggestions, but for me it has to be Kyle Snyder. Actually I thought based on what Kyle accomplished last year should've earned him the trophy, but they went with the very talented Alex Dieringer, which was also a excellent choice. However,getting back to this year, what about Gade Dean ? Shouldn't he be in the conversation ? Jumping back to Zain though, I am a huge fan of the Zain Train, and I believe that he will march through this season virtually unopposed. But what I really what to see is what he can do on the Senior level, and does he inherit or wrest the mantle away from Molinaro at 65Kg, and is he capable of getting the USA back on the podium at this weight class. Anyway I am looking forward to this season getting underway in ernest, and can't wait to see how this all plays out.

 

I don't understand this logic at all.  The Hodge isn't Wrestler of the Year, it has specific criteria that arguably has been inconsistently applied (eg Metcalf in 08, Ackerman, etc) but there quite simply is no argument that Kyle Snyder last year should have won the Hodge Trophy.  Most impressive NCAA tournament, perhaps.  Best wrestler in college, if you include freestyle skills then obviously.  But he wrestled 11 matches with no pins.  This year I think it's very unlikely he will have the pins or the number of matches to compete against other top candidates.  If it were a year like 2008 with Keith Gavin being the most dominant undefeated wrestler then Snyder would win the Hodge, but there are too many bonus point machines out there.  Intermat Wrestler of the Year will probably go to Snyder if he dominates Walz and Medberry, and he'll deserve it.  Hodge is a different matter.

[headshuck 2,604]

The last time a pinner (criteria 1) won the Hodge was Jason Ness.  PRryan will be over shortly to say Jake Varner was more deserving of the award.  Ness had 2x more pins than Varner.

 

So if Zain or Nolf finish with 2x the pins of Snyder, they probably have a good chance.  Ignoring Snyder's Olympic gold medal and quality of prior competition of course.

[ArmDrag14 64]

I think many people forget this is an NCAA Folkstyle award

[unbiased 516]

Hamerlockthree,

Transitive property doesn't work in sports, never has, never will. Also, this isn't last year.

[denny 216]

The Hodge has its own criterion……if course.

 

That said, methinks that one (1) of the (3) Lion bash brothers will walk with this coveted, "NCAA Folkstyle award." (apologies) to ArmDrag 14)

 

May I add that olympic results will not (likely) help here. I hope that the gold medal does not come into play……regarding the Hodge voting.

[bigmik 218]

The Hodge has its own criterion……if course.

 

That said, methinks that one (1) of the (3) Lion bash brothers will walk with this coveted, "NCAA Folkstyle award." (apologies) to ArmDrag 14)

 

May I add that olympic results will not (likely) help here. I hope that the gold medal does not come into play……regarding the Hodge voting.

Past accomplishments is one of the criteria. So is quality of competition. I think Snyder's gold medalS will come into play to some degree.

[bigmik 218]

I think many people forget this is an NCAA Folkstyle award

I don't believe there is anything in the given criteria that rules out results from different styles of wrestling.

[Billyhoyle 2,479]

Kyle Snyder is probably the greatest wrestler ever to compete in the NCAA.  Aren't Smith and Uetake the only other two to compete while being a world or olympic champion?  Snyder already has 2...If Sadulaev moves up as rumored, and Snyder is able to win that head to head match up (big if I know), he will be the #1 P4P wrestler in the world. 

 

I think the wrestling world gains more by giving the award to Snyder than he would get for receiving it.  Having him be on the list of winners would give publicity/credibility to it.  

[rstrong 75]

So many if's and but's... candy and nuts - it'll be a good Christmas.

 

Since it's way too early, I'm throwing in I-Mart and NaTo, and of course J'den.

[xander 346]

The last time a pinner (criteria 1) won the Hodge was Jason Ness. PRryan will be over shortly to say Jake Varner was more deserving of the award. Ness had 2x more pins than Varner.

 

So if Zain or Nolf finish with 2x the pins of Snyder, they probably have a good chance. Ignoring Snyder's Olympic gold medal and quality of prior competition of course.

You know you are good when one can make a post and nest inside it the profile of who will respond and what the response will be. Headshuck we have been on this forum too long. I love it. Made my day. :-)

[headshuck 2,604]

Yes we have xander. I miss the good old days when Iowa was the obvious target for forum fun.

[FATMANROLL 54]

I think many people forget this is an NCAA Folkstyle award

 

Giving Snyder the Hodge because of his international success would be like giving a NASCAR racer NASCAR driver of the year because he won the Formula One championship the year before

[de4856 371]

The Hodge trophy is awarded based on seven criteria:[1][2] 1. Record 2. Number of pins 3. Dominance 4. Past credentials 5. Quality of competition 6. Sportsmanship/citizenship 7. Heart.

Now I'm not sure who makes up the committee, and if the committee members give more weight to one categories over another, and I don't know if they employ a specific formula, but If I would venture a guess, I would think that the committee probably looks at the overall body of work, and based on that, members form an opinion and then come to a general consensus.

However, if you look at Category 6, Sportsmanship/Citizenship, the committee must be influenced somewhat by achievements outside of what happens on the mat.

Lastly (and this is just me speaking), but I don't know how a World or an Olympic medal/title couldn't or wouldn't be a some sort of factor.

[ironmonkey 157]

I am certain it is a factor.  That is why he will be considered with about 10-12 matches under his belt at the end of the season.  Nevertheless, the most dominant college wrestler probably will (and arguably should) wrestle a full season.