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17 hours ago, irani said:

I think any of the three 92 Kg contenders would beat the two 97 contenders

I don't think Karimi beats Shabani at 97kg, I think Karimi is too small for the weight.

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1 minute ago, Uwwdoc said:

I don't think Karimi beats Shabani at 97kg, I think Karimi is too small for the weight.

I would love to find out.  No question Karimi is too small for 97,  I think he would be in 86 if it wasn't of Yazdani, but I still consider him the favorite against Shaabani and Goleji

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3 of our guys have drawn Americans in the first round at worlds, lets see what they're made of

Is Abdollahi the kinda crazy guy that's always in high scoring matches? I remember the last time we saw him he lost by a huge score, maybe that was cadets a few years ago? I'm not sure. 

Edited by The Genius

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1 minute ago, The Genius said:

3 of our guys have drawn Americans in the first round at worlds, lets see what they're made of

Is Abdollahi the kinda crazy guy that's always in high scoring matches? I remember the last time we saw him he lost by a huge score, maybe that was cadets a few years ago? I'm not sure. 

Yeah lol. He won cadet worlds in 2018 but had a disastrous/funny loss to Germany in 2019 juniors. To me it looks like he has good genetics/talent but poorly trained. 

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16 hours ago, AnklePicker said:

Was really surprised Mohammadian lost pretty badly to Odikadze. What are your thoughts on his performance?

For me it was the most disappointing performance of all Iran's fs team. Actually for me worse than Yaz losing with 15s to go.

I disagree with some of my friends here that he peaked early or declined significantly since the Rome tournament when he smoked Nickal and Snyder. Only a few months ago he competed at Asian Qualifiers for Olympics and in Poland in June he looked just as good (teching one of the bronze medalists at Tokyo). Anyone that was not a compatriot he destroyed in similar fashion to Rome. And it is completely understandable that teammates will have lower scoring matches.

I don't think it was a physical or technical issue. By his own admission he has recently said that his mind was so preoccupied at how to wrestle Sadulaev in the next round, that he completely goofed against Georgia. In the end I believe it was a mental issue and the pressure got to him. Which is very disappointing.

I also feel he shouldn't now be written off. Since his return from suspension that was his only loss against international competition. He is 28 and unless I see something better from someone else I still feel he is Iran's best at 97kg and if the draw had favoured him better we may have been talking about a silver or bronze medalist now. I hope he doesn't just disappear and can make a comeback with better mental psyche.

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1 minute ago, Uwwdoc said:

 

I don't think it was a physical or technical issue. By his own admission he has recently said that his mind was so preoccupied at how to wrestle Sadulaev in the next round, that he completely goofed against Georgia. In the end I believe it was a mental issue and the pressure got to him. Which is very disappointing.

 

I think that is oversimplifying the issue.  He also looked weak against Shabani in the trials and failed to impress.  He was not the same wrestler he was when he beat Snyder

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1 minute ago, irani said:

I think that is oversimplifying the issue.  He also looked weak against Shabani in the trials and failed to impress.  He was not the same wrestler he was when he beat Snyder

Weak how? Physically?

If you are talking about the trials in January when he lost to Shabani he was injured.

If you are talking about the tournament in Poland he teched Moore who had actually recently come off a win against Karimi. Teched the Cuban Italian who won bronze in Tokyo. Beat Karimi as well. And of course wrestled and won a very tough match vs Shabani which considering what was at stake and how they know each other I am not surprised.

He looked just as good to me and you can't deny his results. Most of us didn't think he looked a shadow of himself prior to Tokyo and Iranians and non Iranians had him down as a dark horse.

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As far as I can recall off memory this is Mohammadian's results since he returned:

Lost to an Iranian in Iran when he first came back, forgot the guys name. Not one of the main guys in contention for the Olympic team. We talked about it in this thread, probably @wrestfan knows who it was

Went to world military games - teched Baitsaev 11 - 0, but then won the finals over Hushtyn 3 -2 

Went to the Alrosa tournament, lost to Sharifov (controversy or not), teched Urishev for bronze

Went to Italy and had the performances he became "famous" for

Wrestled in the league, almost lost to Shabani but won with a end of match takedown

Wrestled in the trial for world cup, lost to Shabani twice, beat Goleij in a close match and beat Sharitnia

Went to the recent Poland tournament and came first, no need to say results as it was so recent 

Went to the Olympics, lost to Odikadze. 

In my opinion he is simply an inconsistent wrestler. 

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2 minutes ago, Shiraz123 said:

Lost to an Iranian in Iran when he first came back, forgot the guys name. Not one of the main guys in contention for the Olympic team. We talked about it in this thread, probably @wrestfan knows who it was

 

Esmaeil Nejatian

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16 minutes ago, Shiraz123 said:

As far as I can recall off memory this is Mohammadian's results since he returned:

Lost to an Iranian in Iran when he first came back, forgot the guys name. Not one of the main guys in contention for the Olympic team. We talked about it in this thread, probably @wrestfan knows who it was

Went to world military games - teched Baitsaev 11 - 0, but then won the finals over Hushtyn 3 -2 

Went to the Alrosa tournament, lost to Sharifov (controversy or not), teched Urishev for bronze

Went to Italy and had the performances he became "famous" for

Wrestled in the league, almost lost to Shabani but won with a end of match takedown

Wrestled in the trial for world cup, lost to Shabani twice, beat Goleij in a close match and beat Sharitnia

Went to the recent Poland tournament and came first, no need to say results as it was so recent 

Went to the Olympics, lost to Odikadze. 

In my opinion he is simply an inconsistent wrestler. 

Think a lot of you guys have the retrospectoscope out for a skewed look at things. I don't remember people mentioning words like inconsistent, weak, or unimpressive in the lead up to Tokyo. One loss there and it seems minds go fickle.

Since his return. He only lost twice to international competition. One controversially as Shiraz says, and the other this disaster at the Olympics. He isn't someone who flip flops results to be described as inconsistent.

The match against Georgia was a disaster. Did he choke at the highest stage? Maybe, but I don't recall many if any expecting him to bomb out first match against Georgia. If he was inconsistent then a lot could have expected that possibility prior to the match. The very fact it made it so shocking is that he was on a tear since Jan 2020. He isn't famous for smashing big names and then losing to nobodies.

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30 minutes ago, Uwwdoc said:

Think a lot of you guys have the retrospectoscope out for a skewed look at things. I don't remember people mentioning words like inconsistent, weak, or unimpressive in the lead up to Tokyo. One loss there and it seems minds go fickle.

Since his return. He only lost twice to international competition. One controversially as Shiraz says, and the other this disaster at the Olympics. He isn't someone who flip flops results to be described as inconsistent.

The match against Georgia was a disaster. Did he choke at the highest stage? Maybe, but I don't recall many if any expecting him to bomb out first match against Georgia. If he was inconsistent then a lot could have expected that possibility prior to the match. The very fact it made it so shocking is that he was on a tear since Jan 2020. He isn't famous for smashing big names and then losing to nobodies.

I think this is what we all agree with:  At his best, he is amazing, and a favorite to win the silver with an outside shot at gold.  His performance at the Olympics was beyond disappointing.  It wasn't just that he lost to an inferior opponent.  When he fell behind, I did not see him try to win.  Compare that to Mohammad Ali Gerarie in GR, when he fell behind, he did everything in his power to win.

The explanation that he was so focused on Sadulaev that he was not prepared to for his first match is a very weak argument.  Even if you are not prepared, I want to see you try to fight like hell, he simply did not do that.

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8 minutes ago, irani said:

I think this is what we all agree with:  At his best, he is amazing, and a favorite to win the silver with an outside shot at gold.  His performance at the Olympics was beyond disappointing.  It wasn't just that he lost to an inferior opponent.  When he fell behind, I did not see him try to win.  Compare that to Mohammad Ali Gerarie in GR, when he fell behind, he did everything in his power to win.

The explanation that he was so focused on Sadulaev that he was not prepared to for his first match is a very weak argument.  Even if you are not prepared, I want to see you try to fight like hell, he simply did not do that.

Agreed. It was poor and a poor excuse as well which makes it more sour.

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1 hour ago, Uwwdoc said:

Think a lot of you guys have the retrospectoscope out for a skewed look at things. I don't remember people mentioning words like inconsistent, weak, or unimpressive in the lead up to Tokyo. One loss there and it seems minds go fickle.

Since his return. He only lost twice to international competition. One controversially as Shiraz says, and the other this disaster at the Olympics. He isn't someone who flip flops results to be described as inconsistent.

The match against Georgia was a disaster. Did he choke at the highest stage? Maybe, but I don't recall many if any expecting him to bomb out first match against Georgia. If he was inconsistent then a lot could have expected that possibility prior to the match. The very fact it made it so shocking is that he was on a tear since Jan 2020. He isn't famous for smashing big names and then losing to nobodies.

He is undoubtedly inconsistent going by his results since returning. Loss (whatever tournament he wrestled Nejatian at) - Win (Military games) - Loss (Alrosa) - Win (Italy) - Win (Undefeated in the league) - Loss (World cup Trial) - Win (Asian qualifier) - Win (Poland) - and then the loss at Olympics confirmed that, loss meaning he didn't win the tournament/trial. Snyder is also inconsistent if you take into account every tournament, but he gets at least something whenever he goes to worlds or olympics. Mohammadian has only been on 2 world teams (Bronze in 2014, DNP in 2021) so we didn't have the same knowledge for him at the tournament that really matters. Tahan beat him in the trial for 2015, if I remember right Khadem really wanted him on the team and even included him in the team photo, lol. Is that right or am I remembering wrong @wrestfan? And Reza Yazdani got injured or something?

Anyway as I said prior to the Olympics, I picked him to medal (and anyone we sent) purely because I think our guys should only lose to 2 wrestlers (and I gave him a decent chance to upset 1 of those 2 ) at 97 and the seeding system has placed those guys on opposite sides, so we don't even have to beat either Sadulaev or Snyder get a medal. I thought the main difference between Mohammadian and the rest of our 97kg guys was he could get a silver (if he was on Snyder's side) and they would get a bronze. Maybe I am overrating our wrestlers, but I still have the same expectation for us to get a bronze at 97kg.  I still say we should medal regardless of who goes. Conyedo has been teched by 300 different Iranians, Sharifov loses to Karimi and Ebrahimi easily. 

However it doesn't matter anymore, of course he is welcome to try his luck for 2022, it seems they won't give him a chance for the Norway worlds so it will be a little while before we hear from him. I am sure coaches won't give him the same leeway with foreign trials and repeating matches like they did in the trial where he lost to Shabani the first time.  This is why I don't see why we should discount losses to other Iranians, he's going to have to wrestle and beat these guys if he wants to be on the team going forward, Shabani, Goleij and Karimi will all still be there and they are all younger than him. I'm not sure who I would pick to win between them. The coaches aren't going to go out of their way to put him on the team again. That Italy performance obviously gained him a lot of favour with them and I assume that is gone now. There was a lot of controversy and headache around that trial for the coaches, least they would have expected is for him to bring back a bronze for all of that.

 

Edited by Shiraz123

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5 minutes ago, Shiraz123 said:

He is undoubtedly inconsistent going by his results since returning. Loss (whatever tournament he wrestled Nejatian at) - Win (Military games) - Loss (Alrosa) - Win (Italy) - Win (Undefeated in the league) - Loss (World cup Trial) - Win (Asian qualifier) - Win (Poland) - and then the loss at Olympics confirmed that, loss meaning he didn't win the tournament/trial. Snyder is also inconsistent if you take into account every tournament, but he gets at least something whenever he goes to worlds or olympics. Mohammadian has only been on 2 world teams (Bronze in 2014, DNP in 2021) so we didn't have the same knowledge for him at the tournament that really matters. Tahan beat him in the trial for 2015, if I remember right Khadem really wanted him on the team and even included him in the team photo, lol. Is that right or am I remembering wrong @wrestfan? And Reza Yazdani got injured or something?

Anyway as I said prior to the Olympics, I picked him to medal (and anyone we sent) purely because I think our guys should only lose to 2 wrestlers (and I gave him a decent chance to upset 1 of those 2 ) at 97 and the seeding system has placed those guys on opposite sides, so we don't even have to beat either Sadulaev or Snyder get a medal. I thought the main difference between Mohammadian and the rest of our 97kg guys was he could get a silver (if he was on Snyder's side) and they would get a bronze. Maybe I am overrating our wrestlers, but I still have the same expectation for us to get a bronze at 97kg.  I still say we should medal regardless of who goes. Conyedo has been teched by 300 different Iranians, Sharifov loses to Karimi and Ebrahimi easily. 

However it doesn't matter anymore, of course he is welcome to try his luck for 2022, it seems they won't give him a chance for the Norway worlds so it will be a little while before we hear from him. I am sure coaches won't give him the same leeway with foreign trials and repeating matches like they did in the trial where he lost to Shabani the first time.  This is why I don't see why we should discount losses to other Iranians, he's going to have to wrestle and beat these guys if he wants to be on the team going forward, Shabani, Goleij and Karimi will all still be there and they are all younger than him. I'm not sure who I would pick to win between them. The coaches aren't going to go out of their way to put him on the team again. That Italy performance obviously gained him a lot of favour with them and I assume that is gone now. There was a lot of controversy and headache around that trial for the coaches, least they would have expected is for him to bring back a bronze for all of that.

 

I agree with everything @Shiraz123 wrote.

There is simply no explanation for his very poor performance, other than the fact that @Shiraz123picked up to medal.  And well all the @Shiraz123 powers the very few times that he is optimistic about Iran's wrestler.  I think Iranian wrestlers are 0-11 when @Shiraz123 picks them to win :)

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31 minutes ago, Shiraz123 said:

He is undoubtedly inconsistent going by his results since returning. Loss (whatever tournament he wrestled Nejatian at) - Win (Military games) - Loss (Alrosa) - Win (Italy) - Win (Undefeated in the league) - Loss (World cup Trial) - Win (Asian qualifier) - Win (Poland) - and then the loss at Olympics confirmed that, loss meaning he didn't win the tournament/trial. Snyder is also inconsistent if you take into account every tournament, but he gets at least something whenever he goes to worlds or olympics. Mohammadian has only been on 2 world teams (Bronze in 2014, DNP in 2021) so we didn't have the same knowledge for him at the tournament that really matters. Tahan beat him in the trial for 2015, if I remember right Khadem really wanted him on the team and even included him in the team photo, lol. Is that right or am I remembering wrong @wrestfan? And Reza Yazdani got injured or something?

you are really overestimating my memories lol

If I'm not wrong R. Yazdani won the trials and beat Tahan in the final but he got injured later (and carried that injury to the Olympics too) and they had to make a decision, it was between Tahan and Mohammadian (who was very bad at the trials) they eventually decided to send Tahan.

and Nejatian beat Mohammadian in the National Championship final.

personally I think Mohammadian is a very good wrestler but it's hard to defend him after his poor Olympic performance. looks like he can dominate certain type of wrestlers. I think it makes sense to not give him any chance for 2021 Worlds, he had his chance in Tokyo. and yes next year he won't have any kind of advantages (like he had this year)

Edited by wrestfan

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3 hours ago, The Genius said:

3 of our guys have drawn Americans in the first round at worlds, lets see what they're made of

Is Abdollahi the kinda crazy guy that's always in high scoring matches? I remember the last time we saw him he lost by a huge score, maybe that was cadets a few years ago? I'm not sure. 

Becuase junior worlds was cancelled last year, we don’t know how good these guys really are. I expect the US to bring home 2 golds and 5 medals, but they could go 0-10 or 10-0. Can’t wait 

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6 minutes ago, Housebuye said:

Becuase junior worlds was cancelled last year, we don’t know how good these guys really are. I expect the US to bring home 2 golds and 5 medals, but they could go 0-10 or 10-0. Can’t wait 

Which 2?

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7 minutes ago, Shiraz123 said:

Which 2?

We will have to watch to find out. 
  
Amos (97Kg)

Elam (92kg)

O’Toole (74kg)

Bartlett (65kg)

Mendes (61kg)

Figs (57kg)

are the guys most likely to medal/win gold. This is without knowing the field at all though. 
  
The rest of the guys can medal with the right draw, and/or they are much better than I realize. Juniors is when guys breakout

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12 minutes ago, Housebuye said:

We will have to watch to find out. 
  
Amos (97Kg)

Elam (92kg)

O’Toole (74kg)

Bartlett (65kg)

Mendes (61kg)

Figs (57kg)

are the guys most likely to medal/win gold. This is without knowing the field at all though. 
  
The rest of the guys can medal with the right draw, and/or they are much better than I realize. Juniors is when guys breakout

I think our guy at 86 is probably our main favourite for gold, not sure about the rest. 

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1 hour ago, Shiraz123 said:

He is undoubtedly inconsistent going by his results since returning. Loss (whatever tournament he wrestled Nejatian at) - Win (Military games) - Loss (Alrosa) - Win (Italy) - Win (Undefeated in the league) - Loss (World cup Trial) - Win (Asian qualifier) - Win (Poland) - and then the loss at Olympics confirmed that, loss meaning he didn't win the tournament/trial. Snyder is also inconsistent if you take into account every tournament, but he gets at least something whenever he goes to worlds or olympics. Mohammadian has only been on 2 world teams (Bronze in 2014, DNP in 2021) so we didn't have the same knowledge for him at the tournament that really matters. Tahan beat him in the trial for 2015, if I remember right Khadem really wanted him on the team and even included him in the team photo, lol. Is that right or am I remembering wrong @wrestfan? And Reza Yazdani got injured or something?

Anyway as I said prior to the Olympics, I picked him to medal (and anyone we sent) purely because I think our guys should only lose to 2 wrestlers (and I gave him a decent chance to upset 1 of those 2 ) at 97 and the seeding system has placed those guys on opposite sides, so we don't even have to beat either Sadulaev or Snyder get a medal. I thought the main difference between Mohammadian and the rest of our 97kg guys was he could get a silver (if he was on Snyder's side) and they would get a bronze. Maybe I am overrating our wrestlers, but I still have the same expectation for us to get a bronze at 97kg.  I still say we should medal regardless of who goes. Conyedo has been teched by 300 different Iranians, Sharifov loses to Karimi and Ebrahimi easily. 

However it doesn't matter anymore, of course he is welcome to try his luck for 2022, it seems they won't give him a chance for the Norway worlds so it will be a little while before we hear from him. I am sure coaches won't give him the same leeway with foreign trials and repeating matches like they did in the trial where he lost to Shabani the first time.  This is why I don't see why we should discount losses to other Iranians, he's going to have to wrestle and beat these guys if he wants to be on the team going forward, Shabani, Goleij and Karimi will all still be there and they are all younger than him. I'm not sure who I would pick to win between them. The coaches aren't going to go out of their way to put him on the team again. That Italy performance obviously gained him a lot of favour with them and I assume that is gone now. There was a lot of controversy and headache around that trial for the coaches, least they would have expected is for him to bring back a bronze for all of that.

 

I really don't even look at domestic match ups too much unless it is a trial or truly means something. Having spoke to a lot of the Iranian guys they treat like sparring and warm ups for a variety of reasons, so looking too deep into those results does not always reflect well on how things are on the international stage, (taheri and zare a high profile example, amouzad, I can tell you of loads of guys you wouldn't think that best others in training and would lose if a domestic match up took place). All that really matters and is the context of this conversation in particular, (so let's keep it that way and not try to spin it), is how good he has been since his return on the international stage and his result at the Olympics. Losing 2 matches in 5 international tournaments is not inconsistent.

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28 minutes ago, Shiraz123 said:

I think our guy at 86 is probably our main favourite for gold, not sure about the rest. 

Pur 86kg was a backup in college, but he looked great at trials. He may actually be very good now, or just had 1 good day. Nobody expected him to win the spot

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1 hour ago, Uwwdoc said:

I really don't even look at domestic match ups too much unless it is a trial or truly means something. Having spoke to a lot of the Iranian guys they treat like sparring and warm ups for a variety of reasons, so looking too deep into those results does not always reflect well on how things are on the international stage, (taheri and zare a high profile example, amouzad, I can tell you of loads of guys you wouldn't think that best others in training and would lose if a domestic match up took place). All that really matters and is the context of this conversation in particular, (so let's keep it that way and not try to spin it), is how good he has been since his return on the international stage and his result at the Olympics. Losing 2 matches in 5 international tournaments is not inconsistent.

Warm up? I'm sure they are not at their absolute peak for those domestic tournaments, but also no one is at their peak for Mateo Pelicone, Iranian or not. You can say everything in wrestling is a warm up except worlds and Olympics and he flopped there by losing to the same guy Shabani lost to, even by a similar score differencial.  If we are excluding his domestic results in Iran then I don't see why we should include tournaments that took place like 9 months before the Olympics was supposed to take place and then ended up being almost 2 years before it actually took place. And once again, whether it's a warm up or not, he's going go have to start winning those domestic matches, because after that performance in Tokyo they aren't going to do any favours for him again. Same way they aren't doing any favours for Goleij anymore after they placed him on the 2018 team and he didn't perform for them.

If we are talking about purely outside of Iran then he won 4 tournaments, lost 2. One of those wins is the Asian qualifier, wrestling 97kg wrestlers from India, Japan and Turkmenistan. Winning record but not some world beater. But you don't need to be a world beater to medal at this weight, which is all I wanted from him. If you were expecting him to come and beat Sadulaev then I don't know, that is going to take a world beater. His best win is Snyder who was losing to guys at various tournaments even during his 2015 - 2017 3 year world/olympic gold run at 97kg, let alone now. To be fair to Mohammadian he beat him worse than anyone.

End of the day now Mohammadian is 0 - 2 vs Sharifov and 0 - 2 vs Odikadze.  Goleij went in 2018 and lost his first match, Shabani went in 2019 and lost his second match, and now Mohammadian went in 2021 and lost his first match. I slightly prefer Karimi at this point because he has a good track record at the only tournament that truly matters. 

Edited by Shiraz123

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10 hours ago, The Genius said:

3 of our guys have drawn Americans in the first round at worlds, lets see what they're made of

Is Abdollahi the kinda crazy guy that's always in high scoring matches? I remember the last time we saw him he lost by a huge score, maybe that was cadets a few years ago? I'm not sure. 

Who are the coaches for the FS team?

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