Jump to content
wrestfan

Iran Wrestling News

Recommended Posts

3 hours ago, irani said:

Is it confirmed they will stay have the worlds with the Olympics are happening? I kind of assumed if there is an Olympic they will cancel the worlds?

Yes I read (probably in UWW website) that they will only change the dates for few weeks but (as of now) Norway will host the next World Championships in 2021 few months after the Olympics.

but of course nothing is guaranteed these days but that's the plan.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

long time ago Dabir appointed a group to create a new format for the national team selection, apparently they finished the job (it seems it was rocket science and took so many weeks) they will publish it soon but so far we only know it won't be based on just one trial match. it will be a process. yesterday there was a meeting inside the federation and it seems freestyle team head coach Gholamreza Mohammadi stormed out angrily ! even though later he made it better by an interview but obviously he is angry with this new "package" which again apparently doesn't give any power to the coaches in selecting process.

it's possible that both Mohammadi and Banna resign if Dabir really approves this new process. what's interesting is Dabir himself as a wrestler was master of escaping the trials ! his vice president Hamid Sourian NEVER wrestled even once inside Iran !! (except one World Cup against non Iranian wrestlers)

I really don't know why they make things complicated, to me having trials is necessary. but I also believe it should be up to the coach to select his team, mostly based on trial results but also considering other international tournaments.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, wrestfan said:

long time ago Dabir appointed a group to create a new format for the national team selection, apparently they finished the job (it seems it was rocket science and took so many weeks) they will publish it soon but so far we only know it won't be based on just one trial match. it will be a process. yesterday there was a meeting inside the federation and it seems freestyle team head coach Gholamreza Mohammadi stormed out angrily ! even though later he made it better by an interview but obviously he is angry with this new "package" which again apparently doesn't give any power to the coaches in selecting process.

it's possible that both Mohammadi and Banna resign if Dabir really approves this new process. what's interesting is Dabir himself as a wrestler was master of escaping the trials ! his vice president Hamid Sourian NEVER wrestled even once inside Iran !! (except one World Cup against non Iranian wrestlers)

I really don't know why they make things complicated, to me having trials is necessary. but I also believe it should be up to the coach to select his team, mostly based on trial results but also considering other international tournaments.

Interesting. I often wonder which is the best way to pick the World/Olympic rep for the country.

Don't know if it's the best system, but as a fan and spectator, I loved USA's Final X process the past couple of years. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, wrestfan said:

long time ago Dabir appointed a group to create a new format for the national team selection, apparently they finished the job (it seems it was rocket science and took so many weeks) they will publish it soon but so far we only know it won't be based on just one trial match. it will be a process. yesterday there was a meeting inside the federation and it seems freestyle team head coach Gholamreza Mohammadi stormed out angrily ! even though later he made it better by an interview but obviously he is angry with this new "package" which again apparently doesn't give any power to the coaches in selecting process.

it's possible that both Mohammadi and Banna resign if Dabir really approves this new process. what's interesting is Dabir himself as a wrestler was master of escaping the trials ! his vice president Hamid Sourian NEVER wrestled even once inside Iran !! (except one World Cup against non Iranian wrestlers)

I really don't know why they make things complicated, to me having trials is necessary. but I also believe it should be up to the coach to select his team, mostly based on trial results but also considering other international tournaments.

Something weird is going on https://www.khabarvarzeshi.com/fa/news/257687/محمدی-انتخابی-کشتی-نیاز-به-کارشناسی-دارد

Who exactly the Institute that Dabir keep on referring to as the decision maker for the process in his interview? who are members of the Institute?

 

13 minutes ago, 2td3nf said:

Interesting. I often wonder which is the best way to pick the World/Olympic rep for the country.

Don't know if it's the best system, but as a fan and spectator, I loved USA's Final X process the past couple of years. 

There is no question the US system in the most fair and transparent.  The downside is sometimes the person who wins the fair way is not necessarily the best person

The Iranian system has the potential to perhaps select the person most likely to do best, but there is too much room for error and personal favoritism

My best example of a case where the US system was fair but failed is not in wrestling but in Decathlon.  I remember 

As the 1991 world champion, O'Brien entered the Olympic year of 1992 as the favorite to win gold in the decathlon in Barcelona and be proclaimed as the "world's greatest athlete." However, during the U.S. Olympic Trials , O'Brien had a disaster in the pole vault. After passing at the first four (lower) heights, O'Brien entered the competition at 15 ft 9 in (4.80 m), and failed to clear the bar on all three attempts. As a result did not make the Olympic team for Barcelona

In the Iranian system, someone would have intervened, said "are you nuts?"  and give O'Brien the spot.  In this example, the Iranian system would have been unfair, but would have resulted in Gold.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, irani said:

My best example of a case where the US system was fair but failed is not in wrestling but in Decathlon.  I remember 

As the 1991 world champion, O'Brien entered the Olympic year of 1992 as the favorite to win gold in the decathlon in Barcelona and be proclaimed as the "world's greatest athlete." However, during the U.S. Olympic Trials , O'Brien had a disaster in the pole vault. After passing at the first four (lower) heights, O'Brien entered the competition at 15 ft 9 in (4.80 m), and failed to clear the bar on all three attempts. As a result did not make the Olympic team for Barcelona

In the Iranian system, someone would have intervened, said "are you nuts?"  and give O'Brien the spot.  In this example, the Iranian system would have been unfair, but would have resulted in Gold.

 

Dan vs Dave! This was a huge ad campaign. I got very pumped up for 1992 Olympics. As a young impressionable youth, these commercials were in my face all day. A great early lesson in shadenfreude. great example of the pitfalls of the 'fair and objective' team trials method. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

14 hours ago, irani said:

Something weird is going on https://www.khabarvarzeshi.com/fa/news/257687/محمدی-انتخابی-کشتی-نیاز-به-کارشناسی-دارد

Who exactly the Institute that Dabir keep on referring to as the decision maker for the process in his interview? who are members of the Institute?

 

There is no question the US system in the most fair and transparent.  The downside is sometimes the person who wins the fair way is not necessarily the best person

The Iranian system has the potential to perhaps select the person most likely to do best, but there is too much room for error and personal favoritism

My best example of a case where the US system was fair but failed is not in wrestling but in Decathlon.  I remember 

As the 1991 world champion, O'Brien entered the Olympic year of 1992 as the favorite to win gold in the decathlon in Barcelona and be proclaimed as the "world's greatest athlete." However, during the U.S. Olympic Trials , O'Brien had a disaster in the pole vault. After passing at the first four (lower) heights, O'Brien entered the competition at 15 ft 9 in (4.80 m), and failed to clear the bar on all three attempts. As a result did not make the Olympic team for Barcelona

In the Iranian system, someone would have intervened, said "are you nuts?"  and give O'Brien the spot.  In this example, the Iranian system would have been unfair, but would have resulted in Gold.

 

Pretty sure the US can have multiple entries for decathlon, and Dan and Dave were the top two ranked in the world .

US Track and Field has gives  advantage to favorites, past performances, reigning world champs, etc..

You have to perform at the trials or you don't go.

Who is to say that Dan would not have had a pole vault meltdown at the Olympics if he had been given an automatic slot to the Olympic team?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Jim L said:

Who is to say that Dan would not have had a pole vault meltdown at the Olympics if he had been given an automatic slot to the Olympic team?

you could say that about any decathlete from any era. the point is if you were placing a bet as to who would win the 1992 Olympic Decathlon, Dan and Dave would have the best odds.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Jim L said:

 

Pretty sure the US can have multiple entries for decathlon, and Dan and Dave were the top two ranked in the world .

US Track and Field has gives  advantage to favorites, past performances, reigning world champs, etc..

You have to perform at the trials or you don't go.

Who is to say that Dan would not have had a pole vault meltdown at the Olympics if he had been given an automatic slot to the Olympic team?

Hi Jim

I don't disagree with anything you said, and no one can ever predict what will happen in any event

However, Dan O'brien won gold in 91, 93, 95 world championships, and won the 96 Olympics.  I like his chances in the 92 Olympics, if he had entered

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Jaroslav Hasek said:

you could say that about any decathlete from any era. the point is if you were placing a bet as to who would win the 1992 Olympic Decathlon, Dan and Dave would have the best odds.

 

5 minutes ago, irani said:

Hi Jim

I don't disagree with anything you said, and no one can ever predict what will happen in any event

However, Dan O'brien won gold in 91, 93, 95 world championships, and won the 96 Olympics.  I like his chances in the 92 Olympics, if he had entered

Yes, I agree with you both and I did not realize all of that Dan was that dominant.  My recollection is that the ad campaign mad it seem like Dan and Dave were the two co-favorites and no one knew who was going to win. I think Dave would have been the Gold medal favorite if he was not fighting a foot injury.

I still like systems that give the coach no say in who makes the team. But US Track and Field is like Russian wrestling, in many events whoever they send in going to be gold medal favorites.  It used to be wining the US trials was tougher than wining the Olympics in most of the sprinting events

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Jim L said:

 

  My recollection is that the ad campaign mad it seem like Dan and Dave were the two co-favorites and no one knew who was going to win.

I think Nike hype created a competition that was not really there.  Dan was the hands down gold favorite, and Dave was the silver favorite

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, 2td3nf said:

Interesting. I often wonder which is the best way to pick the World/Olympic rep for the country.

Don't know if it's the best system, but as a fan and spectator, I loved USA's Final X process the past couple of years. 

in Iran, most people in wrestling community consider USA as the best example. clear rules, nobody can complain. but I think it won't be easy to use that method in Iran, because in Iran top wrestlers always find a way to the team from the backdoor ! it's really hard to change that culture

whenever we have a new guy in the federation, he claims having a trial system is in top of his priorities. they make some rules but after failing in 1 or 2 years they go back to the old system. it happened so many times in past 20 years. the USA system sometimes hurts (because you don't send the best guy sometimes) but it helps in long term. but that never worked in Iran because it was never a long term plan.

to me there is no perfect system, you always lose something to gain something else, nowadays we have lots of local competitions, wrestlers know each other, sometimes some guys are just bad matchup for a better wrestler, for example Ebrahimi and Karimi at 92kg, Ebrahimi beat Karimi multiple times but then his record in international competitions is nowhere near Karimi. what's the best decision here ? sending the better guy (Karimi) or the guy who is only good to beat Karimi !!??

while in freestyle I believe the better wrestler most of the time ends up as the winner, we can't say the same about Greco. accident happens a lot there, so many matches are decided by just one mistake or one action, sometimes even by just a caution. I think specially in Greco they should consider so many other things and not just one match at the trials.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, wrestfan said:

in Iran, most people in wrestling community consider USA as the best example. clear rules, nobody can complain. but I think it won't be easy to use that method in Iran, because in Iran top wrestlers always find a way to the team from the backdoor ! it's really hard to change that culture

whenever we have a new guy in the federation, he claims having a trial system is in top of his priorities. they make some rules but after failing in 1 or 2 years they go back to the old system. it happened so many times in past 20 years. the USA system sometimes hurts (because you don't send the best guy sometimes) but it helps in long term. but that never worked in Iran because it was never a long term plan.

to me there is no perfect system, you always lose something to gain something else, nowadays we have lots of local competitions, wrestlers know each other, sometimes some guys are just bad matchup for a better wrestler, for example Ebrahimi and Karimi at 92kg, Ebrahimi beat Karimi multiple times but then his record in international competitions is nowhere near Karimi. what's the best decision here ? sending the better guy (Karimi) or the guy who is only good to beat Karimi !!??

while in freestyle I believe the better wrestler most of the time ends up as the winner, we can't say the same about Greco. accident happens a lot there, so many matches are decided by just one mistake or one action, sometimes even by just a caution. I think specially in Greco they should consider so many other things and not just one match at the trials.

Very well said

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/3/2020 at 5:20 PM, Gantry said:

Agreed, easily one of the best if not the best thread on the forums.  In addition to everything you said I'll add what I think is the most important thing -  when the main people here disagree they do it respectfully and QUICKLY.  They don't go back and forth for pages, they don't try to get the last word in, they concede points to the other side, they don't fill it up with straw men and personal attacks and at the end of the day they agree to disagree and move on.  They make the thread about the wrestling and not their opinions, it's glorious. 

@Gantry, while the discussions seem respectful on this board, every time I disagree with @The Geniuson this board, the next day, I find my car has been keyed!  I am beginning to suspect there is a cor relationship :) 

Edited by irani

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mohammad Hossein Mohammadian was guest in a TV show, once again explaining his doping accident, he still claims he was innocent, he knew about the test few days in advance and since it was an out of competition test he could simply leave the camp and escape the test if he knew there is something in his system (per WADA rules, you can do that twice, but 3rd time means suspension) also he is repeating that story about wrestling federation doctor telling him to lie and bring a prescription to reduce his 4 years ban which didn't work and makes things worse.

and he trained these 4 years seriously like other in the national camp.

https://video.varzesh3.com/video/214103/محمد-حسین-محمدیان-در-دام-دوپینگ-ناخواسته

and short interview with his father (Olympic silver medalist), he says he was  died the moment he heard the news on TV.

https://video.varzesh3.com/video/214102/صحبت-های-احساسی-محمدیان-درباره-دوپینگ-پسرش

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, wrestfan said:

Mohammad Hossein Mohammadian was guest in a TV show, once again explaining his doping accident, he still claims he was innocent, he knew about the test few days in advance and since it was an out of competition test he could simply leave the camp and escape the test if he knew there is something in his system (per WADA rules, you can do that twice, but 3rd time means suspension) also he is repeating that story about wrestling federation doctor telling him to lie and bring a prescription to reduce his 4 years ban which didn't work and makes things worse.

and he trained these 4 years seriously like other in the national camp.

https://video.varzesh3.com/video/214103/محمد-حسین-محمدیان-در-دام-دوپینگ-ناخواسته

and short interview with his father (Olympic silver medalist), he says he was  died the moment he heard the news on TV.

https://video.varzesh3.com/video/214102/صحبت-های-احساسی-محمدیان-درباره-دوپینگ-پسرش

I cannot see the videos for some reason

I want to believe him, I wish I could believe him, but the science does not lie; he doped.

But as far as I am concerned he paid a heavy and fair price, and I am willing to consider him innocent going forward.  He worked hard in those 4 years and the results so far, show how hard he worked.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, irani said:

I cannot see the videos for some reason

I want to believe him, I wish I could believe him, but the science does not lie; he doped.

But as far as I am concerned he paid a heavy and fair price, and I am willing to consider him innocent going forward.  He worked hard in those 4 years and the results so far, show how hard he worked.

 

I don't know why it doesn't work for you, try this one

https://s-v4.tamasha.com/statics/videos_download/91/5f/MGWyZ_915fc74ea4fc383ae2edfd45de9191b10e96025f_n_240.mp4?name=صحبت_های_احساسی_محمدیان_درباره_دوپینگ_پسرش_auto.mp4

I'm quite sure he doesn't mean the science lied ! he just claims he didn't take anything intentionally, and he claims he took the test voluntarily. but you never know, doping is considered a bad thing in Iran (I know in some ex soviet countries, people are completely fine with it and even their doped athletes are still treated like heroes) nobody confesses to it. specially him, because that doping accident brought shame to his father, you can see (if you can watch the video) that his father is almost crying while telling the story. he made his son swear to him if he really took something or not.

but after all athletes in this level are still responsible for whatever they eat and drink, for example I know Sourian in his entire career never even drank from a bottle he didn't open himself and he even checked every single bottle to see if there was an injection mark on it or not. you

Edited by wrestfan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, irani said:

Thanks, that worked.

I hate to see the pain in his father's face.  When he says I hope no father ever goes through this, I really feel his pain and shame.

yes that was really sad, I'm sure his father needs this more than himself, I mean Mohammad Hossein winning an Olympic medal.

this is the whole show, even though the host is a jerk, most of his questions are nonsense

https://www.telewebion.com/episode/2270399

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

while IAWF is supposed to publish this "team selection package" in few days, some news websites already published that and that's indeed rocket science ! your brain will explode if you read the full version !

very complicated, they award points to each wrestler after each competition, to me this is unrealistic.

I tried to write a summary of it but that was really impossible. but in short wrestlers collect points in each round (Nationals, Takhti Cup, Asians, international tournaments) and few selected wrestlers with most points will be eligible for the final round of trials. winning that doesn't guarantee you a spot, it's still possible to send top 2 to an international competition.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, wrestfan said:

while IAWF is supposed to publish this "team selection package" in few days, some news websites already published that and that's indeed rocket science ! your brain will explode if you read the full version !

very complicated, they award points to each wrestler after each competition, to me this is unrealistic.

I tried to write a summary of it but that was really impossible. but in short wrestlers collect points in each round (Nationals, Takhti Cup, Asians, international tournaments) and few selected wrestlers with most points will be eligible for the final round of trials. winning that doesn't guarantee you a spot, it's still possible to send top 2 to an international competition.

Lol they will never take away coaches power to pick somebody, so when they introduce a new procedure it has to be complicated. Over last few years they sent such stupid wrestlers without trial or despite losing  the trial as if they are Saitiev or something. I don't get angry, it is actually funny for me to see that wrestlers like Teymouri, Goleij , Akbari etc have been placed on the world team under those conditions. Who is Bahman Teymouri to be allowed to wrestle at the world championships without  a trial? LOL . Hopefully at least this stops those kinds of decisions. For the top wrestlers I still expect them to send who they like. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, wrestfan said:

while IAWF is supposed to publish this "team selection package" in few days, some news websites already published that and that's indeed rocket science ! your brain will explode if you read the full version !

very complicated, they award points to each wrestler after each competition, to me this is unrealistic.

I tried to write a summary of it but that was really impossible. but in short wrestlers collect points in each round (Nationals, Takhti Cup, Asians, international tournaments) and few selected wrestlers with most points will be eligible for the final round of trials. winning that doesn't guarantee you a spot, it's still possible to send top 2 to an international competition.

Who exactly is making up these rules?  Dabir referred to the Institue.  Who are the memebers, do you know?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, irani said:

Who exactly is making up these rules?  Dabir referred to the Institue.  Who are the memebers, do you know?

Yes there is something called "Wrestling Institute" mostly for research about wrestling,

I just know Hassan Yousefi-Afshar appointed by Dabir as the institute president , I don't know the other members, it was Habibollah Akhlaghi in that position before him and Hadi Habibi before Akhlaghi. it wasn't doing anything special as far as I remember.

Yousefi-Afshar was a Greco wrestler with some Asian medals, but we mostly know him because of his big mouth and usual nonsense he says in his interviews . he hates Banna and almost everybody else , except himself of course. he is that kind of guy that thinks he is the only smart person in the world.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, wrestfan said:

Yes there is something called "Wrestling Institute" mostly for research about wrestling,

I just know Hassan Yousefi-Afshar appointed by Dabir as the institute president , I don't know the other members, it was Habibollah Akhlaghi in that position before him and Hadi Habibi before Akhlaghi. it wasn't doing anything special as far as I remember.

Yousefi-Afshar was a Greco wrestler with some Asian medals, but we mostly know him because of his big mouth and usual nonsense he says in his interviews . he hates Banna and almost everybody else , except himself of course. he is that kind of guy that thinks he is the only smart person in the world.

Well, that's not good!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Shiraz123 said:

Lol they will never take away coaches power to pick somebody, so when they introduce a new procedure it has to be complicated. Over last few years they sent such stupid wrestlers without trial or despite losing  the trial as if they are Saitiev or something. I don't get angry, it is actually funny for me to see that wrestlers like Teymouri, Goleij , Akbari etc have been placed on the world team under those conditions. Who is Bahman Teymouri to be allowed to wrestle at the world championships without  a trial? LOL . Hopefully at least this stops those kinds of decisions. For the top wrestlers I still expect them to send who they like. 

I prefer to wait to read the official document, but what I read was very confusing. I really didn't understand some parts of it, for example who decides that they need to wrestle in another tournament after the trials ?! what's the criteria ?

another big problem here is they will ruin the preparation plans with this, now Asian Championship for example is a part of trial process. we know historically while Iran cares about winning the team title, they always send some youngsters (plus 2 or 3 guaranteed gold medals) which was a good idea but now they have to send whoever wins the nationals, even if that's grandpa Esmaeil Nejatian for example ! and beside that most of their trial system is based on international tournaments in next 6-7 months ! really ? they are expecting to have international competitions in such a short time while we are not even sure about the Olympics in a year ! and it seems they don't know in half those weights Iran still doesn't have the quota and someone has to earn that first. there is no advantage in that "system" for winning the quota.

I was thinking what would be my decision if it was up to me. I would make the trials mandatory, but with only 6 to 8 wrestlers in each weight. maybe double elimination format and the final should be best of 3. and those 6-8 wrestlers should be selected from the nationals and Takhti Cup + last year member + one wild card for the coach. but in some very rare situations giving top 2 another chance in an international competition. I mean in cases like injuries, dubious calls, accidents.

and yes no way someone like Teymouri with no past achievement should get the spot directly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...