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1 hour ago, wrestfan said:

I prefer to wait to read the official document, but what I read was very confusing. I really didn't understand some parts of it, for example who decides that they need to wrestle in another tournament after the trials ?! what's the criteria ?

another big problem here is they will ruin the preparation plans with this, now Asian Championship for example is a part of trial process. we know historically while Iran cares about winning the team title, they always send some youngsters (plus 2 or 3 guaranteed gold medals) which was a good idea but now they have to send whoever wins the nationals, even if that's grandpa Esmaeil Nejatian for example ! and beside that most of their trial system is based on international tournaments in next 6-7 months ! really ? they are expecting to have international competitions in such a short time while we are not even sure about the Olympics in a year ! and it seems they don't know in half those weights Iran still doesn't have the quota and someone has to earn that first. there is no advantage in that "system" for winning the quota.

I was thinking what would be my decision if it was up to me. I would make the trials mandatory, but with only 6 to 8 wrestlers in each weight. maybe double elimination format and the final should be best of 3. and those 6-8 wrestlers should be selected from the nationals and Takhti Cup + last year member + one wild card for the coach. but in some very rare situations giving top 2 another chance in an international competition. I mean in cases like injuries, dubious calls, accidents.

and yes no way someone like Teymouri with no past achievement should get the spot directly.

I agree with you.  I actually think the US system, or a version of the US system is fine.

Examples could be this.  10 people in the trial, top 8 plus 2 wild cards selected by the coach.  (this assumes we have a fair and transparent seeding system, it should be too complciated)

number 1 and 2 seed rest.  the reamining 8 wreste in a single elimination, for two rounds, now we have two left plus the top two seeds, have the number 1 seed wrestle the 4th guy, and the number 2 seed wrestle the 3rd guy, perhaps 2 our of 3.  The winners get in the final, and wresle 2 out of 3, and the winner goes.

They couudl also make some rules for exceptions.  If the number 1 seed is a defending medalist and is injured, they will let him do his match up to two weeks later.

 

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I watched an interview with Abdullah Movahed.

He brags that he is one of only two iranian to win gold in the Tblisi tournament.  @wrestfanwho is the other one?  I would guess it was Rasul Khadem, but that is just a guess.

he makes an interesting comment about Iran wrestling.  he says Iranian wrestlers are like weeds, there is not planning, there is no organization, everyone once in a while a great wrestler popul up, and then we go a few years without any success

 

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22 hours ago, irani said:

I agree with you.  I actually think the US system, or a version of the US system is fine.

Examples could be this.  10 people in the trial, top 8 plus 2 wild cards selected by the coach.  (this assumes we have a fair and transparent seeding system, it should be too complciated)

number 1 and 2 seed rest.  the reamining 8 wreste in a single elimination, for two rounds, now we have two left plus the top two seeds, have the number 1 seed wrestle the 4th guy, and the number 2 seed wrestle the 3rd guy, perhaps 2 our of 3.  The winners get in the final, and wresle 2 out of 3, and the winner goes.

They couudl also make some rules for exceptions.  If the number 1 seed is a defending medalist and is injured, they will let him do his match up to two weeks later.

The US system is great for them, but they are not flexible at all. what if Yazdani makes a mistake and gets pinned in his SF against Bazri ? will you  send Bazri to the Olympics ? as I said in situations like this or in case of dubious officiating I would like to give the top guy another chance.

and what about Greco ? there are so many guys who are just tough and can defend well, which sometimes works in local competitions, they know each other they can't execute techniques. for example in 2018 Pejman Poshtam (who is below average in my opinion) managed to beat Mohammad Ali Geraei twice. they sent him to the Worlds and as expected he lost in the first round. Geraei won the Asian Games the same year. specially in Greco local competitions are totally different.

and about that question, you are really overestimating my knowledge lol, maybe Ebrahim Javadi ?! Tblisi tourney was something great in Soviet era, Khadem is not that old.

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2 minutes ago, wrestfan said:

The US system is great for them, but they are not flexible at all. what if Yazdani makes a mistake and gets pinned in his SF against Bazri ? will you  send Bazri to the Olympics ? as I said in situations like this or in case of dubious officiating I would like to give the top guy another chance.

 

That's why you make it 2 out 3, to avoid freak results impacting the final selection

3 minutes ago, wrestfan said:

 

and about that question, you are really overestimating my knowledge lol, maybe Ebrahim Javadi ?! Tblisi tourney was something great in Soviet era, Khadem is not that old.

You may be right.  You know, if I was going to make list of Iranian wrestlers who absolutely dominated their weight class ror at least 3 years, I can only come up with 4 three names

Habibi, Movahed, Javadi and Khadem.  Takhti was top 3 for a decade but did not really dominate, meaning win gold and gold.  You could perhaps add Mehdizadeh to that list.  For all of its history, iran really hasn't had many wrestlers complete dominate their weight for a few years.  (I am not including Gr, otherwide Sourian would be added to the list)

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1 hour ago, irani said:

That's why you make it 2 out 3, to avoid freak results impacting the final selection

You may be right.  You know, if I was going to make list of Iranian wrestlers who absolutely dominated their weight class ror at least 3 years, I can only come up with 4 three names

Habibi, Movahed, Javadi and Khadem.  Takhti was top 3 for a decade but did not really dominate, meaning win gold and gold.  You could perhaps add Mehdizadeh to that list.  For all of its history, iran really hasn't had many wrestlers complete dominate their weight for a few years.  (I am not including Gr, otherwide Sourian would be added to the list)

Yazdani's legacy was greatly diminished by David Taylor.

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2 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

Yazdani's legacy was greatly diminished by David Taylor.

True, but it's still not over.  The olympics will be the key chapter, if Yazdani loses again, it's over.  If he wins, it will be a rivalry.  right now it's 2-0 and it's not even close.

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2 hours ago, irani said:

True, but it's still not over.  The olympics will be the key chapter, if Yazdani loses again, it's over.  If he wins, it will be a rivalry.  right now it's 2-0 and it's not even close.

What I mean to say is if not for DT, Yazdani would have 4 in a row.  3 of them utter dominance. Rare in Iran, by your estimation.  He can't get that back. 

I am a big fan of Yazdani.  I first met him when he was about 4 or 5.  He would run around the gym laughing with his hands and face sticky from melting Marine.  Mazandaran summers can be hot and Marine candies sure aren't M&Ms! 

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11 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

What I mean to say is if not for DT, Yazdani would have 4 in a row.  3 of them utter dominance. Rare in Iran, by your estimation.  He can't get that back. 

I am a big fan of Yazdani.  I first met him when he was about 4 or 5.  He would run around the gym laughing with his hands and face sticky from melting Marine.  Mazandaran summers can be hot and Marine candies sure aren't M&Ms! 

You have a valid point, but right now, he has 3 gold, one silver, and one bronze, if DT changed his gold to Bronze.

My point is that if he can solve the DT puzzle, he is young enough that he can still end up with 5-7 golds, and the one bronze in 2018 will be a rounding error.  His other loss was at the world cup not the world championship.

The one person who I feel bad for is Reza Yazdani, he had two world champion golds and was on his way to olympic gold when he had that horriffic injury.

All kidding aside, when I was a kid, my favorite time was when my family would go to Mazandaran by the Caspian Sea.   Some of my best memories are from there

 

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14 minutes ago, irani said:

You have a valid point, but right now, he has 3 gold, one silver, and one bronze, if DT changed his gold to Bronze.

My point is that if he can solve the DT puzzle, he is young enough that he can still end up with 5-7 golds, and the one bronze in 2018 will be a rounding error.  His other loss was at the world cup not the world championship.

The one person who I feel bad for is Reza Yazdani, he had two world champion golds and was on his way to olympic gold when he had that horriffic injury.

All kidding aside, when I was a kid, my favorite time was when my family would go to Mazandaran by the Caspian Sea.   Some of my best memories are from there

 

Yes, he still has a lot of wrestling and will leave a fantastic legacy.  Conducts himself with dignity as well.  

That sounds wonderful.  Hope many other families are still creating those memories for their children. 

Yazdani would do well to heed the advice my father gave me:

ضرورت قوی ترین شیر را به روباه تبدیل می کند.

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4 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

 

That sounds wonderful.  Hope many other families are still creating those memories for their children. 

 

Sadly, it's not the same.  they have taken freedom from people.  The country that I left does not exist anymore

5 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

 

Yazdani would do well to heed the advice my father gave me:

ضرورت قوی ترین شیر را به روباه تبدیل می کند.

Lol, do you know what it means?

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Dabir had a press conference today, explaining so many things, that team selection system published by some news websites was correct. apparently there are lots of details about each round of it we still don't know. while some minor changes are still possible but Dabir said that's a sure thing and he will not change his decision about this system. they showed the whole process to the journalists but still didn't publish the full document. here are some important points of his press conference.

* he made it clear that he is very upset with freestyle team head coach Gholamreza Mohammadi, he confirmed the rumors about Mohammadi storming out of their meeting angrily, Dabir said "if he continues his behavior, I'm going to make some changes" (meaning I will fire him)

* according to Dabir only one wrestler (Hassan Yazdani) will be exempt from the Takhti Cup this year . Yazdani, Mohebbi and Atri will be exempt from the Nationals for winning the quota but everybody else has to wrestle in the nationals. there is no advantage for Karimi, Ehsanpour and Emami for winning world medals in another weight. in cases of injuries like Karimi (if he doesn't recover in time) he can enter the competition later (and after the nationals) but he will lose some points. the same goes to Parviz Hadi because he won the trials last year but an injury prevented him from participating.

* Dabir also talked specifically about 97kg, he said he talked to Reza Yazdani and he is training now and wants to try his chance for the Olympics !! Dabir said everybody including R. Yazdani, Shaabani, Karimi and Mohammadian have to wrestle at the nationals. interestingly he called Mohammadian as "Askari Mohammadian's son" and not his own name !!!!! and I have a question here, how all of these guys can participate at the nationals ? Yazdani, Shaabani, Goleij and Mohammadian they are all from Mazandaran ! and provinces are allowed 1 wrestler per weight. (unless they want to change that rule)

* Dabir said they want to make this a clear rule, so wrestlers can sue him or the coaches if anybody breaks the law !

* coaches will decide which international tournament will be used for the trials. Dabir praised Banna (Greco coach) so many times during the press conference, but he said I didn't appoint these coaches, they were here before I got elected. he also said 80% of this trial system is based on Banna's philosophy.

* in case of disciplinary reasons, coaches still have the power to kick wrestlers out of the team.

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3 hours ago, wrestfan said:

Dabir had a press conference today, explaining so many things, that team selection system published by some news websites was correct. apparently there are lots of details about each round of it we still don't know. while some minor changes are still possible but Dabir said that's a sure thing and he will not change his decision about this system. they showed the whole process to the journalists but still didn't publish the full document. here are some important points of his press conference.

* he made it clear that he is very upset with freestyle team head coach Gholamreza Mohammadi, he confirmed the rumors about Mohammadi storming out of their meeting angrily, Dabir said "if he continues his behavior, I'm going to make some changes" (meaning I will fire him)

* according to Dabir only one wrestler (Hassan Yazdani) will be exempt from the Takhti Cup this year . Yazdani, Mohebbi and Atri will be exempt from the Nationals for winning the quota but everybody else has to wrestle in the nationals. there is no advantage for Karimi, Ehsanpour and Emami for winning world medals in another weight. in cases of injuries like Karimi (if he doesn't recover in time) he can enter the competition later (and after the nationals) but he will lose some points. the same goes to Parviz Hadi because he won the trials last year but an injury prevented him from participating.

* Dabir also talked specifically about 97kg, he said he talked to Reza Yazdani and he is training now and wants to try his chance for the Olympics !! Dabir said everybody including R. Yazdani, Shaabani, Karimi and Mohammadian have to wrestle at the nationals. interestingly he called Mohammadian as "Askari Mohammadian's son" and not his own name !!!!! and I have a question here, how all of these guys can participate at the nationals ? Yazdani, Shaabani, Goleij and Mohammadian they are all from Mazandaran ! and provinces are allowed 1 wrestler per weight. (unless they want to change that rule)

* Dabir said they want to make this a clear rule, so wrestlers can sue him or the coaches if anybody breaks the law !

* coaches will decide which international tournament will be used for the trials. Dabir praised Banna (Greco coach) so many times during the press conference, but he said I didn't appoint these coaches, they were here before I got elected. he also said 80% of this trial system is based on Banna's philosophy.

* in case of disciplinary reasons, coaches still have the power to kick wrestlers out of the team.

This is officially a clusterf*ck

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On 5/12/2020 at 12:22 PM, wrestfan said:

 

* according to Dabir only one wrestler (Hassan Yazdani) will be exempt from the Takhti Cup this year . Yazdani, Mohebbi and Atri will be exempt from the Nationals for winning the quota but everybody else has to wrestle in the nationals. there is no advantage for Karimi, Ehsanpour and Emami for winning world medals in another weight. in cases of injuries like Karimi (if he doesn't recover in time) he can enter the competition later (and after the nationals) but he will lose some points. the same goes to Parviz Hadi because he won the trials last year but an injury prevented him from participating.

.

 

So is the rule that if a wrestler wins a gold at the world championships he can skip nationals and Takhti? Or he just said this for Hassan Yazdani because he has been successful over the last few years? 

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5 minutes ago, Shiraz123 said:

 

So is the rule that if a wrestler wins a gold at the world championships he can skip nationals and Takhti? Or he just said this for Hassan Yazdani because he has been successful over the last few years? 

that's the rule for whoever wins a medal at the Worlds (not just gold) he just used Yazdani as an example, that applies also to Nejati and Geraei in Greco.

actually there will be 3 plans, for 86kg it will be Plan A because Yazdani is a last year world medalist. this is exactly what they wrote

#1 Provincial  championships
#2 Nationals, Yazdani is exempt

#3 an international tournament (Yazdani + Nationals winner)
#4 Takhti Cup, (2nd to 5th from the nationals)
#5 Asian Championship, whoever with most points at this time, ( if that's Yazdani , he can refuse it but the others can't.)
#6 international tournament (top 2 from the ranking except the Asian team member)
#7 Trials , wrestlers with enough points are eligible (didn't mention how many wrestlers but I assume it will be 3 or 4 maximum)
#8 international tournament (as preparation or continuing the selection process between top 2 in the ranking)

what's interesting is they don't think they have to publish the whole plan with every single details. maybe they will do that only after it's 100% finalized. also nobody explained the final trials format, round robin ? double elimination ? best of 3 ?

* what I explained above is only for 86kg (and 60kg and 77kg Greco) there are some differences in other weights.

ranking points will be awarded like this (Gold-Silver-Bronze)
Nationals 200-0-0
Takhti 200-100-75
International tournaments 300-200-100
Asian 300-200-100
world medalists like Yazdani will start with 250pts
whoever beats Yazdani anywhere in the process will get 100 additional points, 75 and 50 for beating world silver and bronze medalists (nobody this year)

I'm quite sure this is the most complicated trial process ever in any sport for any country lol

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UWW picks the top 5 Iranian wrestlers in history

https://www.khabarvarzeshi.com/fa/news/258765/معرفی-۵-کشتی‌گیر-برتر-تاریخ-ایران-از-سوی-اتحادیه-جهانی

I am very surprised Habibi did not make the cut, I would have put him above Yazdani.  I guess a gold medal was a requirement so that eliminates Javadi and Mehdizadeh from contention

 

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3 hours ago, irani said:

UWW picks the top 5 Iranian wrestlers in history

https://www.khabarvarzeshi.com/fa/news/258765/معرفی-۵-کشتی‌گیر-برتر-تاریخ-ایران-از-سوی-اتحادیه-جهانی

I am very surprised Habibi did not make the cut, I would have put him above Yazdani.  I guess a gold medal was a requirement so that eliminates Javadi and Mehdizadeh from contention

 

For those with rusty Farsi(not me), here is a uww link. 

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On 5/14/2020 at 10:33 PM, Plasmodium said:

For those with rusty Farsi(not me), here is a uww link. 

The UWW video is a great one, but there is an error in it  Movahed does not have two olympic gold medals, he particiapted in two, but only has one gold medal

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On 5/16/2020 at 8:55 AM, irani said:

The UWW video is a great one, but there is an error in it  Movahed does not have two olympic gold medals, he particiapted in two, but only has one gold medal

Thanks for pointing that out.  Sometimes I miss subtleties and minutiae in English. If it were in Farsi or even Fante.......... 

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13 hours ago, Plasmodium said:

Thanks for pointing that out.  Sometimes I miss subtleties and minutiae in English. If it were in Farsi or even Fante.......... 

I think the members of the forum should pitch in, and hire a full time Persian to English translater for you so that you can overcome your issues with non Persian languages.  

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On 5/15/2020 at 2:37 AM, irani said:

UWW picks the top 5 Iranian wrestlers in history

https://www.khabarvarzeshi.com/fa/news/258765/معرفی-۵-کشتی‌گیر-برتر-تاریخ-ایران-از-سوی-اتحادیه-جهانی

I am very surprised Habibi did not make the cut, I would have put him above Yazdani.  I guess a gold medal was a requirement so that eliminates Javadi and Mehdizadeh from contention

 

looool who from UWW made that list? Probably Nenad Lalovic typed it in quarantine. Respect to Takhti but no way is he the best Iranian wrestler. 

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1 hour ago, Shiraz123 said:

looool who from UWW made that list? Probably Nenad Lalovic typed it in quarantine. Respect to Takhti but no way is he the best Iranian wrestler. 

Takhti has the most number of medals.  I have seen different sites use different formules were you get points for gold, silver and bronze, and you get double points for the olympics.  Based on that formula, Takhti and Movahed usually end up tied for the most accomplished wresters in Iran history.

I know what you mean though, while Takhti had a long and illustrious career, he never dominated his weight class the way Movahed, Khadem, Habibi, Javadi, and even Mehdizadeh did

Edited by irani

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Seeing that 37 year old Gatsalov will definitely be wrestling for Armenia if the Olympics even happens. It made me think I would like to see Reza Yazdani do something similar and wrestle for another country even though I know it will not happen. I want to see Yazdani wrestle at the Olympics but I think Mohammadian is by far the best option for Iran, and it's very unrealistic to me that Yazdani at his age and injury history is going to be able to participate in this new trial system. He is going to start from Mazandaran championships to nationals to Takhti to international tournaments and more? Very low chance in my opinion. Would be great if he could just wrestle for some country where he can just be their 97. 

Edited by Shiraz123

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1 hour ago, Shiraz123 said:

Seeing that 37 year old Gatsalov will definitely be wrestling for Armenia if the Olympics even happens. It made me think I would like to see Reza Yazdani do something similar and wrestle for another country even though I know it will not happen. I want to see Yazdani wrestle at the Olympics but I think Mohammadian is by far the best option for Iran, and it's very unrealistic to me that Yazdani at his age and injury history is going to be able to participate in this new trial system. He is going to start from Mazandaran championships to nationals to Takhti to international tournaments and more? Very low chance in my opinion. Would be great if he could just wrestle for some country where he can just be their 97. 

Smart strategy would be to wrestle for Israel :)  He will not have to worry about beating Mohammadian!

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13 hours ago, irani said:

Smart strategy would be to wrestle for Israel :)  He will not have to worry about beating Mohammadian!

Lol,  that or any country that would just let him be their 97 or make it very easy for him to be on the team. Main problem for him with his age and injuries is not Mohammadian (although I am pretty sure he beats Reza) but the trial procedure in general. This won't be like last year when they set up the trials for him and he only had to win one match and he didn't end up going anyway. Gatsalov is  smart avoiding wrestling all these other Russians just for a chance at the Olympics when he knows this is his last chance and he is old. If I was Reza I would have tried to do something similar although it is probably too late now. 

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