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In Fairness To Gilman (Terao match)

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Maybe he is speaking about the before or after the match antics also. Running into the opponents team huddle before the meet starts?

 

So we're saying that running over to shake the person's hand on the side, which could be rude, is the same as...."cross faces".  And I'll use that term loosely for the purpose of this discussion.

 

Gilman's had people get physical with him several times, notably a guy like Tomasello, and never said word one.  He's also lost matches and handled them about as classily as you could want, including the NCAA Finals last year.  This brought a reaction.

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I'm not saying anything is the same just giving an example of what he might have thought was something that Gilman has done in the past, which is what you asked for.

 

I understand, and I wasn't trying to attack you, rather the general point, which some may agree with, seems to me to hold little water.

 

Understanding that "me" has a Gilman avatar, so...

Edited by VakAttack

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Yeah it was a cheap shot, but Iowa likes to use the out of bounds for cheap pushes and finishes. It's wrestling. We need fireworks sometimes. It's the old adage that you can dish it out but can you take it. On the other side of things, if it would have been Gilman throwing that cross face it would have been front page news  as assault and they would have demanded a safe place on the mat for Terao along with a Hawkey comfort stuffed animal. 

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Iowa wrestles to the whistle to wear opponents down. Nothing cheap about that. Especially when being compared to a club to the face

 

Sorry, but it's not "wrestling to the whistle" when, after going out of bounds (and the whistle is blown) to shove your opponent. Or after a whistle has blown to put your hand on the back of your opponent's head and mush his face into the ground as you get up.

 

Sure, Iowa isn't the only one guilty of that crap, but let's not try to gussy it up as something that its not. When the whistle blows - you stop. It's a simple rule.

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Can you give examples of all of these actions outside of the Waters slam, though at least there was 15ish seconds left on the clock in that scenario and he was desperately trying to escape.

 

 

Desperately trying to escape my ass, he was trying to hurt him with an illegal move.

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Desperately trying to escape my ass, he was trying to hurt him with an illegal move.

 

There are much easier and more subtle ways to hurt someone then what Gilman did and there were 15 seconds left in OT where the entire point of the OT period is to escape from the bottom.  He has never shown any kind of proclivity for "dangerous wrestling" outside of that match.  His attitude is eye of the beholder types stuff, but you're portrayal of the incident is ridiculous.

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The blood of that sequence is 100 percent on gilman's hands, he executed the move ffs. The ref was terrible in the whole dual and somehow called waters for slamming himself, that was on him. As I recall, gilman then got pointed for running his mouth AFTER the exchange. Not that it mattered but he should have given up two points then.

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Speaking of the Waters incident, why in the world does the NCAA actually have a rule that lets anyone cling to the back of a standing wrestler like a spider monkey?  It is ridiculously stupid.  When the bottom wrestler stands, it is the top wrestler's responsibility to return him to the mat in 5 seconds, EXCEPT when you are clinging to his back like my 2 year old daughter does when I tell her the piggy back ride is over?

 

To me what Gilman did in that situation was seriously overblown.  He was super frustrated(and rightly so) and fell backwards onto a padded surface with a guy clinging to his back.  Considering he is 5ft nothing and was hunched over, the guy may have felt 2 or 3 feet of gravity's pull.

 

The incident never would have happened if, in my opinion, the dumbest rule in College wrestling was changed..............

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I watched it live, and a 1000 times thereafter.  Even watching it now, it is laughable.  It doesn't even phase Waters in the least bit. Blast doubles put you to the PADDED mat harder than that did.  Like I said, get rid of the ridiculous rule that allows a position so contradictory to the intent of mat wrestling and this would have never happened.

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Everyone is entitled to their interpretation.  My point was mainly about the rule itself.  It is so ridiculously stupid that I am embarrassed every time I see it happen and can see why Gilman did what he did.  I am not condoning his intent.  I just don't see it as nearly the big deal that many here seem to.

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Everyone is entitled to their interpretation.  My point was mainly about the rule itself.  It is so ridiculously stupid that I am embarrassed every time I see it happen and can see why Gilman did what he did.  I am not condoning his intent.  I just don't see it as nearly the big deal that many here seem to.

Because the top guy cannot protect himself.

The stupidest rule in wrestling is a defensive pin.

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Waters-Gilman scenario should be stalling on Waters (top man) whether he puts the leg in before they stand up or after. It's safer for both wrestlers and it awards the bottom man for not only being able to stand but to do so with a man of equal weight attached to his back.

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Because the top guy cannot protect himself.

The stupidest rule in wrestling is a defensive pin.

It's not like the top guy is locked into that position.  He can easily transition to his feet 99.999% of the time when the bottom man starts standing up.  In the case of that  .001 percent where he can't, call it potentially dangerous and move on.

 

Also, the reason why I call it stupid is because it contradicts everything you are taught from the bottom position.  Getting to your feet is the most basic thing you learn.  But, when someone is clinging to your back with no chance to hold you down, let alone turn  you, you are not allowed to stand up?

Edited by MSU158

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Isn't the basic rule that if you lift a man off the mat you are responsible for safely returning him to the mat? Correct me if I am wrong, but the rule book doesn't place any additional parameters on that maxim that would suggest that the rule only applies when two wrestlers are in neutral or when one wrestler is considered "in control." Right?

 

If so, lifting a guy on your back off of the mat would demand that you likewise are responsible for returning him safely to the mat, at the very least, you aren't slamming him to the mat. Right?

 

What am I missing?

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Isn't the basic rule that if you lift a man off the mat you are responsible for safely returning him to the mat? Correct me if I am wrong, but the rule book doesn't place any additional parameters on that maxim that would suggest that the rule only applies when two wrestlers are in neutral or when one wrestler is considered "in control." Right?

 

If so, lifting a guy on your back off of the mat would demand that you likewise are responsible for returning him safely to the mat, at the very least, you aren't slamming him to the mat. Right?

 

What am I missing?

The factor of "control" may not be specifically referenced but being in a "hold" is definitely inferred.  You aren't controlling the guy that is draped across your back.  In no way are you holding him.  He is the one holding you.  If he wanted to, at any time, he could release that hold and no longer be in any danger.  Allowing a guy to hold on for dear life in the top position goes against every other call we now make.  Hold onto an ankle, you will(or are supposed to anyway) get called for stalling.  Ride parallel you are suposed to be called for stalling.  The impetus is supposed to be on you to improve position.  In no way does this do so!

Edited by MSU158

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Isn't the basic rule that if you lift a man off the mat you are responsible for safely returning him to the mat? Correct me if I am wrong, but the rule book doesn't place any additional parameters on that maxim that would suggest that the rule only applies when two wrestlers are in neutral or when one wrestler is considered "in control." Right?

 

If so, lifting a guy on your back off of the mat would demand that you likewise are responsible for returning him safely to the mat, at the very least, you aren't slamming him to the mat. Right?

 

What am I missing?

 

The fact that the Iowa/Gilman nuthuggers make excuses for everything he does, but cry foul if somebody (Terao) gives it back to him.

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The fact that the Iowa/Gilman nuthuggers make excuses for everything he does, but cry foul if somebody (Terao) gives it back to him.

This isn't an Iowa or Gilman excuse.  I even said that I didn't condone his intent.  I just didn't think it was nearly as egregious an act as you did.

 

 My argument is that ANY leg rider shouldn't be protected from having to return the guy to the mat if he stands up.  If he can easily release the hold, he should have to.  If it looks like he is stuck, quickly call it potentially dangerous and restart.

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