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boconnell

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My bad.  I didn't realize I was supposed to be analyzing.  I'll dig deeper and figure out why Boyd's 2 takedowns in that match don't count and Brooks' 2 TDs do.   

 

Because that's how analysis works.  Brooks tried an ill advised throw in a match he was leading.  Both of Boyd's takedowns were off counters, with the last one being a counter at the very last second of regulation as Brooks was desperately trying to get the winning TD.  Brooks took Boyd down with his own offense.  Those are the differences.  This is a weird argument since I openly acknowledged that both matches were before Boyd jumped levels, but regardless, you can't watch both of those first two matches without acknowledging that Brooks was the better wrestler at the time in both matches unless you're being a homer.

 

Is this really controversial?  Inferior wrestlers (again, at the time) steal matches all the time where nobody would ever argue that they were better just because they won that one match.

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Because that's how analysis works.  Brooks tried an ill advised throw in a match he was leading.  Both of Boyd's takedowns were off counters, with the last one being a counter at the very last second of regulation as Brooks was desperately trying to get the winning TD.  Brooks took Boyd down with his own offense.  Those are the differences.  This is a weird argument since I openly acknowledged that both matches were before Boyd jumped levels, but regardless, you can't watch both of those first two matches without acknowledging that Brooks was the better wrestler at the time in both matches unless you're being a homer.

 

Is this really controversial?  Inferior wrestlers (again, at the time) steal matches all the time where nobody would ever argue that they were better just because they won that one match.

I told you'd I'd analyze deeper and I see it now.  Brooks scored takedowns and Boyd only scored takedowns and nearfall.  I should have seen it right away.  Brooks was clearly the better man in that 9-6 loss.  

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I told you'd I'd analyze deeper and I see it now.  Brooks scored takedowns and Boyd only scored takedowns and nearfall.  I should have seen it right away.  Brooks was clearly the better man in that 9-6 loss.  

 

Never mind, you're right.  Better wrestlers can never lose.  I think we all agree that Mark Perry was better than Johnny Hendricks.

Edited by VakAttack

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Never mind, you're right.  Better wrestlers can never lose.  I think we all agree that Mark Perry was better than Johnny Hendricks.

I don't know what you want.  I told you I see it now.  It should have been even more obvious he was inferior when Boyd didn't All-American that year like Brooks did.

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Never mind, you're right.  Better wrestlers can never lose.  I think we all agree that Mark Perry was better than Johnny Hendricks.

You're the one using a 3 year old loss and a 2 year old WIN to argue that the 4th place finisher who has only lost to Dean isn't favored over the 8th place finisher who lost to Jackson.

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I told you'd I'd analyze deeper and I see it now. Brooks scored takedowns and Boyd only scored takedowns and nearfall. I should have seen it right away. Brooks was clearly the better man in that 9-6 loss.

Mymar was clearly better then Nickal at the end of the year last year. Have them wrestle 10 times at the end of the year, and Mymar had to be the favorite because he won that one match.

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You're the one using a 3 year old loss and a 2 year old WIN to argue that the 4th place finisher who has only lost to Dean isn't favored over the 8th place finisher who lost to Jackson.

 

Brooks also beat Nate Jackson and Gravina of Rutgers, both better than any win Boyd has this year.  184 is the most loaded class of the year.  It's a toss up between almost everybody in the top 12 not named Dean or Nickal.

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And Boyd was 4th and Brooks 8th in a more recent year.  Yet you ignore that and call it a tossup.  Does analysis and old results only matter when it allows you to make your point?

 

No, because I'm not judging them by cherry-picked results, I'm judging them by watching the process of how they actually wrestle.

 

EDIT:  I have never once called it a toss up due to those results from two years ago.  I simply made an off-handed statement that Brooks was the better wrestler when those matches happened, even though he lost one, but that Boyd had jumped levels since then and I saw this match as a toss up.  This is truly an incredible argument.

Edited by VakAttack

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Mymar was clearly better then Nickal at the end of the year last year. Have them wrestle 10 times at the end of the year, and Mymar had to be the favorite because he won that one match.

Correct.

The Champ is the Champ and that is what is remembered down the road, unless Nickal changes that in the future it stands.

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Mymar was clearly better then Nickal at the end of the year last year. Have them wrestle 10 times at the end of the year, and Mymar had to be the favorite because he won that one match.

He didn't say Brooks was better.  He said Brooks was the better man in that match.  Do you think Nickal was the better man in the match he lost?

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He didn't say Brooks was better.  He said Brooks was the better man in that match.  Do you think Nickal was the better man in the match he lost?

 

And he was.  Lets use the most extreme example I can think of, Rob Rohn vs. Josh Lambrecht.  Lambrecht was clearly the better man in that match, but he didn't win it.  It happens.

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No, because I'm not judging them by cherry-picked results, I'm judging them by watching the process of how they actually wrestle.

What in the last 12 months makes you think Boyd isn't favored over Brooks?

 

Boyd 28-4

Losses to Dean (3X) and one to Renda

Wins over Dean, Matt Miller, Miklus (2X), Nate Brown, Zilmer, McCutcheon, 

4th place AA

 

Brooks 27-6

Losses to Jackson, Brown, Miller, Dudley (2X), Renda

Wins over Gravina, Jackson, Abounader, Dudley, McCutcheon, 

8th place AA

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What in the last 12 months makes you think Boyd isn't favored over Brooks?

 

Boyd 28-4

Losses to Dean (3X) and one to Renda

Wins over Dean, Matt Miller, Miklus (2X), Nate Brown, Zilmer, McCutcheon, 

4th place AA

 

Brooks 27-6

Losses to Jackson, Brown, Miller, Dudley (2X), Renda

Wins over Gravina, Jackson, Abounader, Dudley, McCutcheon, 

8th place AA

 

 

Best Post in Thread. Boyd's wins are better, and his losses are not as bad. Your evidence and argument are strong. 

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What in the last 12 months makes you think Boyd isn't favored over Brooks?

 

Boyd 28-4

Losses to Dean (3X) and one to Renda

Wins over Dean, Matt Miller, Miklus (2X), Nate Brown, Zilmer, McCutcheon, 

4th place AA

 

Brooks 27-6

Losses to Jackson, Brown, Miller, Dudley (2X), Renda

Wins over Gravina, Jackson, Abounader, Dudley, McCutcheon, 

8th place AA

 

Because their both high level wrestlers and I believe that Brooks style matches up well to stifle Brown's style.  And I do love how you left out the first half of last season in your cherry picked results.  EXTRA GREAT CHERRY PICKING!  Just so we're clear, that included losses to Lorenzo Thomas, another loss to Renda,  a loss to Miller, and two (TWO!!!) losses to Jordan Rogers who Sammy techfalled during that same time period.

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Because their both high level wrestlers and I believe that Brooks style matches up well to stifle Brown's style.  And I do love how you left out the first half of last season in your cherry picked results.  EXTRA GREAT CHERRY PICKING!  Just so we're clear, that included losses to Lorenzo Thomas, another loss to Renda,  a loss to Miller, and two (TWO!!!) losses to Jordan Rogers who Sammy techfalled during that same time period.

Wrestler A finished higher at NCAAs, is ranked higher by every ranking service, won the last head to head, and has been far better in the last 12 months.

 

Wrestler B was the better man in a 2 year old loss and had a better first half to last season.

 

And I am the unreasonable cherry picker.  

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It is perfectly acceptable to look at the evidence, watch the matches and pick either guy. If we knew what would happen it wouldn't be fun to watch.

 

The good news is this thread has made that matchup far more interesting. Off the top of my head I was confident in Boyd, but now it is far more compelling.

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Wrestler A finished higher at NCAAs, is ranked higher by every ranking service, won the last head to head, and has been far better in the last 12 months.

 

Wrestler B was the better man in a 2 year old loss and had a better first half to last season.

 

And I am the unreasonable cherry picker.  

 

You keep throwing up strawmen.  That's fine.  My argument is, was, and always has been they are both high level wrestlers in a stacked weight class and Brooks' style matches up well with Boyd's, so I think the match is a toss up.  I do love the "far better" qualifier, since you are the arbiter, apparently.  Kaid Brock is ranked below Eric Montoya.  Who are you picking if they wrestle?

Edited by VakAttack

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It is perfectly acceptable to look at the evidence, watch the matches and pick either guy. If we knew what would happen it wouldn't be fun to watch.

 

The good news is this thread has made that matchup far more interesting. Off the top of my head I was confident in Boyd, but now it is far more compelling.

 

Clearly you're an idiot like me.

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You keep throwing up strawmen.  That's fine.  My argument is, was, and always has been they are both high level wrestlers in a stacked weight class and Brooks' style matches up well with Boyd's, so I think the match is a toss up.  I do love the "far better" qualifier, since you are the arbiter, apparently.  Kaid Brock is ranked below Eric Montoya.  Who are you picking if they wrestle?

I don't know.  Did Brock and Montoya both enter the same weight class and one finish behind the other?  If they did I would favor the guy who finished ahead if all other things are close to equal.  Then I'd pick a winner (and maybe an upset) based on how they wrestle, regardless of favorite.

 

I have no problem with you picking Brooks.  It would be a tiny upset.  But Boyd is favored in the matchup.  

Edited by boconnell

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