Vincenzo Joseph is he a top 4 guy????

[tabenn 47]

Still early in the big10 schedule--but he seems to be improving every week--

 

will the improvement continue? is he a top 4 guy.

 

I like his leg attacks 

he has guts with his inside trip..

[TBar1977 4,482]

He will be top 4 tomorrow since last week's number 4 lost, so yes, he is a top 4 guy. By definition. 

[Housebuye 2,417]

I can't see him beating iMar, Massa, or iJo. At best he could be 4th, but that means he has to beat a ton of really tough guys.

 

I personally have Anthony Valencia ahead of him, along with Daniel Lewis. Rogers can beat or lose to anyone. 

[tabenn 47]

He will be top 4 tomorrow since last week's number 4 lost, so yes, he is a top 4 guy. By definition. 

My fault I should have been more specific...I do not mean rank--more where he will end up in March.

 

I do not think he will beat Imar or Massa   but I think Jordan maybe?????

[TBar1977 4,482]

My fault I should have been more specific...I do not mean rank--more where he will end up in March.

 

I do not think he will beat Imar or Massa   but I think Jordan maybe?????

 

 

I would have to give the edge to Isaac Jordan, but it isn't an impossible mountain to climb. And while I think there are a few other 165's who can beat Vincenzo, I think Joseph is easily as good as any of those guys are and I would give him a slight edge to win most of the time all else being equal. As for Anthony Valencia, I expect Joseph to win that match. 

[LemonPie 1,368]

He's bulked himself up quite a bit, but I think 157 would be a much better fit. Think PSU has the two best 157 pounders in the nation. Doesn't finish as cleanly at 165 with his frame. But he's bulked past 157 and that's where PSU wants him. PSU would probably be a little stronger if he and Nolf swapped-- given how weak 157 is-- but then Nolf has that iMar and Massa issue. I hope he gets a top 6 seed and avoids Anthony Valencia at nationals.

 

And yes, I'm aware of his weight issues last season.

Edited January 9, 2017 by LemonPie

[wrestlingnerd 2,996]

At the moment, he's in the same camp as Valencia in my mind, although they're very different wrestlers. Each has the ability to beat anyone if he gets hot and a little lucky. But it's unlikely either is consistent enough to be a clear top 4 guy.

[LoStNuMbEr 320]

Vincenzo has some great offense but I do think he seems a little sloppy at times, I don't see him breaking into the top four personally

[Housebuye 2,417]

His freestyle match vs Valencia was an awesome match, but makes me confident that Anthony will win

[MSU158 1,978]

Your CLEAR top 4 are IMar, Massa, IJo and Lewis(regardless of getting pinned by Rogers).  After that, you have Rogers, Valencia, Joseph and Walsh, but I wouldn't forget Minotti come the post season.  He is best when the lights are on in March.  Of the second tier, I would be most concerned with Valencia.  I think he gained some valuable confidence at Midlands after getting off to a somewhat rough start compared to expectations.  He wrestled IMar pretty tough and pounded everyone else.  His weakness really seems to mainly be a mixture of confidence and commitment.  When right, I think he is the best of the 2nd tier.  I think Rogers and Joseph are a 50/50 tossup and Walsh is a slightly less expensive version of them.  Minotti, with a full gas tank, is solid enough to avoid the above's big moves.

[Housebuye 2,417]

Your CLEAR top 4 are IMar, Massa, IJo and Lewis(regardless of getting pinned by Rogers). After that, you have Rogers, Valencia, Joseph and Walsh, but I wouldn't forget Minotti come the post season. He is best when the lights are on in March. Of the second tier, I would be most concerned with Valencia. I think he gained some valuable confidence at Midlands after getting off to a somewhat rough start compared to expectations. He wrestled IMar pretty tough and pounded everyone else. His weakness really seems to mainly be a mixture of confidence and commitment. When right, I think he is the best of the 2nd tier. I think Rogers and Joseph are a 50/50 tossup and Walsh is a slightly less expensive version of them. Minotti, with a full gas tank, is solid enough to avoid the above's big moves.

100% agree. I think we see Valencia on the podium this year.

 

He has shown that he is starting to get over the mental block he has had in the past and his skill is elite. He needs to continue working in getting out from bottom by other than that he can go with all but the best.

 

He did get first takedown on Massa as well. Massa seems to be a consensus #2 and the biggest challenger to iMar, so that's saying something. He did get dominated the rest of the match however.

[TBar1977 4,482]

His freestyle match vs Valencia was an awesome match, but makes me confident that Anthony will win

 

 

Which freestyle match. The one where Vincenzo pinned Anthony, or this one where he gassed him out? 

 

http://www.flowrestling.org/video/978399-74-kg-final-vincenzo-joseph-psu-vs-anthony-valencia-asu#.WHPrKfkrJPZ

Edited January 9, 2017 by TBar1977

[LemonPie 1,368]

Lewis is not a clear no. 4.  Ability to keep things close doesn't make you a clear no. 4.  His best career win is Steven Rodrigues.  He lost 8-4 to McFadden last year.   iMar, Massa, and Jordan are your clear top 3. 

 

Not to mention he recently missed weight?  And Mizzou is off the rails.

Edited January 9, 2017 by LemonPie

[Housebuye 2,417]

Which freestyle match. The one where Vincenzo pinned Anthony, or this one where Vincenzo came storming back to win late?

 

http://www.flowrestling.org/video/978399-74-kg-final-vincenzo-joseph-psu-vs-anthony-valencia-asu#.WHPrKfkrJPZ

The one where Vincenzo stormed back late. I think it showed that assuming Anthony gets his head right (all signs are pointing to that) he would beat Vincenzo.

 

Vincenzo is a good wrestler and beating Valencia wouldn't be shocking, but if I had to bet I'd take Anthony.

[Housebuye 2,417]

Lewis is not a clear no. 4. Ability to keep things close doesn't make you a clear no. 4. His best career win is Steven Rodrigues. He lost 8-4 to McFadden last year. iMar, Massa, and Jordan are your clear top 3.

 

Not to mention he recently missed weight? And Mizzou is off the rails.

What is going on at Missouri? Preseason they had a clear shot at the podium, if not 3rd. Now?

 

They have 3 guys at 141 who could be ranked with a hole at 133, guys are missing weight, Myers hasn't panned out at all, Jden is winning but not convincingly, rumbles of a few guys planning to leave, Lewis not looking great, etc.

[wrestlingnerd 2,996]

His weakness really seems to mainly be a mixture of confidence and commitment.

And the cut. I think he's getting more used to it and it's starting to show. He's a pretty big boy (thick and tallish for the weight) and the cut was probably not easy given it's his first D1 season cutting hard.

[TBar1977 4,482]

The one where Vincenzo stormed back late. I think it showed that assuming Anthony gets his head right (all signs are pointing to that) he would beat Vincenzo.

 

Vincenzo is a good wrestler and beating Valencia wouldn't be shocking, but if I had to bet I'd take Anthony.

 

 

If they meet we can have a gentleman's bet and I will gladly take Vincenzo. 

[boconnell 1,623]

What is going on at Missouri? Preseason they had a clear shot at the podium, if not 3rd. Now?

 

They have 3 guys at 141 who could be ranked with a hole at 133, guys are missing weight, Myers hasn't panned out at all, Jden is winning but not convincingly, rumbles of a few guys planning to leave, Lewis not looking great, etc.

And the 2 they want at 141 are struggling (Synon's loss last night was really bad, and Manley got beat by two guys who didn't place at the SS).  And it looks like they don't want Eierman at 141 even though he's the best one.  And the 133 might be better than Synon or Manley is at 141.  He was one of the only ones who looked good last night (and he beat McKee for 5th at SS).  I don't understand not letting Eierman take the spot at 141.  It seems like forcing him to go down is ruining 2 weight classes and his future at the school.  

[LemonPie 1,368]

And the cut. I think he's getting more used to it and it's starting to show. He's a pretty big boy (thick and tallish for the weight) and the cut was probably not easy given it's his first D1 season cutting hard.

Yes, he does look good.  I'd be mad If Joseph had to see him in a 6/11 seed matchup because of his early struggles.   I think Anthony will climb to around 7 or 8, however.  

Edited January 9, 2017 by LemonPie

[Housebuye 2,417]

If they meet we can have a gentleman's bet and I will gladly take Vincenzo. 

 

Agreed! 

[Perry 1,423]

I wouldn't be surprised to see him that high, but I predict the 5 to 8 range. 165 is just loaded and I think Imar, massa, ijo and Lewis are all a little better at this point (I still would take Lewis over Rogers in a rematch). If course anything is possible in March (look at 174 last year)

[MSU158 1,978]

Lewis is not a clear no. 4.  Ability to keep things close doesn't make you a clear no. 4.  His best career win is Steven Rodrigues.  He lost 8-4 to McFadden last year.   iMar, Massa, and Jordan are your clear top 3. 

 

Not to mention he recently missed weight?  And Mizzou is off the rails.

I am sorry, but to me, being the 2nd highest returning AA(4th) while having close losses to Dieringer, IMar, Jordan and Jordan along with McFadden does mean a lot.  His only other losses were 2 relatively unexpected pins.  That along with the fact that the remaining second tier guys have beaten NO ONE themselves to justify being there was my reasoning.

Edited January 9, 2017 by MSU158

[boconnell 1,623]

I am sorry, but to me, being the 2nd highest returning AA(4th) while having close losses to Dieringer, IMar, Jordan and Jordan along with McFadden does mean a lot.  His only other losses were 2 relatively unexpected pins.  That along with the fact that the remaining second tier guys have beaten NO ONE themselves to justify being there was my reasoning.

Rogers has way better wins than Lewis.  I am fine with putting him a tier below Lewis because of the lack of consistency, but you can't say he's beaten nobody.

[LemonPie 1,368]

I am sorry, but to me, being the 2nd highest returning AA(4th) while having close losses to Dieringer, IMar, Jordan and Jordan along with McFadden does mean a lot. His only other losses were 2 relatively unexpected pins. That along with the fact that the remaining second tier guys have beaten NO ONE themselves to justify being there was my reasoning.

And nobody is arguing the other guys are in the first tier. Lewis is just with that 2nd tier. The 1st tier has 3 wrestlers.

Edited January 10, 2017 by LemonPie

[MSU158 1,978]

Rogers has way better wins than Lewis.  I am fine with putting him a tier below Lewis because of the lack of consistency, but you can't say he's beaten nobody.

Way better wins?  Other than beating Lewis, whom has he beaten?  Te'Shan Campbell is the only other top 20 guy he beat. Lewis beat Steiert, who is ranked above Campbell.

 

I can see you wanting to use the Lewis win to jump him over Lewis, I just don't think that one match puts him over him.  If he beats him again, I will gladly admit I am wrong.