MSU158 2,038 Report post Posted January 10, 2017 And nobody is arguing the other guys are in the first tier. Lewis is just with that 2nd tier. The 1st tier has 3 wrestlers. I will concede that the top 3 are better, but I still think Lewis is better than the 2nd tier. Are you willing to give me Lewis as 2A and the others 2B? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smcfee 76 Report post Posted January 10, 2017 Way better wins? Other than beating Lewis, whom has he beaten? Te'Shan Campbell is the only other top 20 guy he beat. Lewis beat Steiert, who is ranked above Campbell. I can see you wanting to use the Lewis win to jump him over Lewis, I just don't think that one match puts him over him. If he beats him again, I will gladly admit I am wrong. Casey Kent, Ethan Ramos, Kyle Crutchmer, Mike Ottinger.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbert 563 Report post Posted January 10, 2017 Way better wins? Other than beating Lewis, whom has he beaten? Te'Shan Campbell is the only other top 20 guy he beat. Lewis beat Steiert, who is ranked above Campbell. I can see you wanting to use the Lewis win to jump him over Lewis, I just don't think that one match puts him over him. If he beats him again, I will gladly admit I am wrong. Pretty sure Chandler has stuck him twice now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MSU158 2,038 Report post Posted January 10, 2017 Casey Kent, Ethan Ramos, Kyle Crutchmer, Mike Ottinger.... `Bit of a stretch to count last year at 174 and beating a teammate, but I think Rodrigues, Rohskopf, Wilson and Glass twice last year matches up pretty well with that list. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MSU158 2,038 Report post Posted January 10, 2017 Pretty sure Chandler has stuck him twice now. Please don't tell me you are including high school or freestyle? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Housebuye 2,449 Report post Posted January 10, 2017 Please don't tell me you are including high school or freestyle?No. Chandler stuck him in late 2014 as well in college Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MSU158 2,038 Report post Posted January 10, 2017 No. Chandler stuck him in late 2014 as well in college Ah, I see. It was early during his true freshman season while he was redshirting. Although I can see giving some credit for that, it is a very slippery slope. How much credit do people give to Paul Jenn for beating Cael Sanderson? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
boconnell 1,632 Report post Posted January 10, 2017 Ah, I see. It was early during his true freshman season while he was redshirting. Although I can see giving some credit for that, it is a very slippery slope. How much credit do people give to Paul Jenn for beating Cael Sanderson? They'd probably give him more credit for that win if Jenn beat Sanderson again 2 years later. Repeated outcomes (in this case falls) usually have some base cause. But I have no problem with considering the much more consistent Lewis a step above Rogers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbert 563 Report post Posted January 10, 2017 We can fantasize about the future matches all we want. As for the facts, right now Chandler Rogers is a superior wrestler to Lewis. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MSU158 2,038 Report post Posted January 10, 2017 They'd probably give him more credit for that win if Jenn beat Sanderson again 2 years later. Repeated outcomes (in this case falls) usually have some base cause. But I have no problem with considering the much more consistent Lewis a step above Rogers. Not arguing with your main point, just the part saying Chandler has way better wins. I definitely see that Rogers may be a very bad match up for Lewis and agree that even though the other time happened early as a true freshman, there is a pattern forming. I just want to see them match up one more time when it counts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MSU158 2,038 Report post Posted January 10, 2017 We can fantasize about the future matches all we want. As for the facts, right now Chandler Rogers is a superior wrestler to Lewis. Now that is garbage. Rogers lost to Glass and Lewis has beaten Glass twice. Also, should I consider Womack the superior wrestler to Rogers because he pinned him as well? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbert 563 Report post Posted January 10, 2017 If they beat him two times out of two times ...Yes you can consider them superior wrestlers Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TBar1977 4,602 Report post Posted January 10, 2017 Circling back around, not one, not two, but three whole ranking services have Vincenzo Joseph ranked among the top 4 @ 165. Just saying. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbert 563 Report post Posted January 10, 2017 Joseph should be above Lewis and Rogers Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MSU158 2,038 Report post Posted January 10, 2017 If they beat him two times out of two times ...Yes you can consider them superior wrestlers Only 1 counts........... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MSU158 2,038 Report post Posted January 10, 2017 (edited) Circling back around, not one, not two, but three whole ranking services have Vincenzo Joseph ranked among the top 4 @ 165. Just saying. If he didn't wrestle for PSU do you think he would be ranked that high with a career record of 9-1 and an 18-12 loss to Subjeck? His ranking is solely(other than wrestling for PSU) based on 1 win(Walsh). PSU is not the only team that gets bias in ranking. You have seen it for a long time with Iowa, OkState and Minnesota and starting to see it with tOSU. Freshmen are expected to be producers for these teams and end up getting the benefit of the doubt with rankers much earlier than they probably should. Edited January 10, 2017 by MSU158 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LemonPie 1,368 Report post Posted January 10, 2017 (edited) If he didn't wrestle for PSU do you think he would be ranked that high with a career record of 9-1 and an 18-12 loss to Subjeck? His ranking is solely(other than wrestling for PSU) based on 1 win(Walsh). PSU is not the only team that gets bias in ranking. You have seen it for a long time with Iowa, OkState and Minnesota and starting to see it with tOSU. Freshmen are expected to be producers for these teams and end up getting the benefit of the doubt with rankers much earlier than they probably should. He also has FS bias going for him. FS results arent supposed to count, but they do. Wins over Smith, Valencia, and Kutler. I think Flo's ranking of 6th is fair. Edited January 10, 2017 by LemonPie 1 LaxHawk174 reacted to this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tabenn 47 Report post Posted January 10, 2017 If he didn't wrestle for PSU do you think he would be ranked that high with a career record of 9-1 and an 18-12 loss to Subjeck? His ranking is solely(other than wrestling for PSU) based on 1 win(Walsh). PSU is not the only team that gets bias in ranking. You have seen it for a long time with Iowa, OkState and Minnesota and starting to see it with tOSU. Freshmen are expected to be producers for these teams and end up getting the benefit of the doubt with rankers much earlier than they probably should. I agree to a point, I believe that it may be HYPE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tabenn 47 Report post Posted January 10, 2017 I agree to a point, I believe that it may be HYPE FAT FINGERS! did not mean to post yet...HYPE related in what I wanted to type.. Cenzo was hyped pretty hard on Flo..and did well his RS year. I think there are many factors at play with ranking,, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
boconnell 1,632 Report post Posted January 11, 2017 Not arguing with your main point, just the part saying Chandler has way better wins. I definitely see that Rogers may be a very bad match up for Lewis and agree that even though the other time happened early as a true freshman, there is a pattern forming. I just want to see them match up one more time when it counts. I'd pick Lewis in a rematch and I think he should be ranked higher. I do think the best Chandler Rogers beats the best Lewis. But most guys have a 2nd level that is like 95% of their best. Rogers 2nd level is like 50% of his best. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Housebuye 2,449 Report post Posted January 11, 2017 I'd pick Lewis in a rematch and I think he should be ranked higher. I do think the best Chandler Rogers beats the best Lewis. But most guys have a 2nd level that is like 95% of their best. Rogers 2nd level is like 50% of his best.I never understand that. Why is Rogers so hot and cold? Sometimes he seems like a title contender (pinning #4 in the first) and other times seems like he shouldn't be a starter. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbert 563 Report post Posted January 11, 2017 Not arguing with your main point, just the part saying Chandler has way better wins. I definitely see that Rogers may be a very bad match up for Lewis and agree that even though the other time happened early as a true freshman, there is a pattern forming. I just want to see them match up one more time when it counts.In my opinion the only time it really counts is in March. Lewis may not want the match as much as you do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tigerfan9311 223 Report post Posted January 11, 2017 Maybe Lewis is angling for the 6 seed instead of the 4, for obvious reasons. Just kidding. A little. 1 LemonPie reacted to this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MSU158 2,038 Report post Posted January 11, 2017 In my opinion the only time it really counts is in March. Lewis may not want the match as much as you do. March is absolutely what counts and all evidence points to the contrary. Lewis took 4th as a RS Frosh. Rogers did not AA. Granted, he was not necessarily at his ideal weight, but I wouldn't use March as an example to downgrade Lewis. Most(obviously not all) Freshmen AA's will AA again. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbert 563 Report post Posted January 11, 2017 March is absolutely what counts and all evidence points to the contrary. Lewis took 4th as a RS Frosh. Rogers did not AA. Granted, he was not necessarily at his ideal weight, but I wouldn't use March as an example to downgrade Lewis. Most(obviously not all) Freshmen AA's will AA again.No disrespect to him at all. You said he is a clear 4 based on some close matches and that he finished #4 last year. I disagree and gave reason why he may not be. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
