i would oppose duals too if i kept taking losses

[TBar1977 4,533]

I feel like you guys keep saying this year after year, but it remains a hole.

 

 

Are you dense? Gulibon was the top rated recruit in the nation at his weight, and Retherford is a Junior World Champion. It would be impossible to recruit better than that for those two spots. Cael couldn't fill every spot from Day 1 because there just isn't enough money to go around, so now he has filled 133 and 141 and you'll see the results when these guys get on the mat.

[SetonHallPirate 990]

Maybe I am wrong here, but didn't Brands oppose it also? Maybe I am dreaming or senile, but for some reason I think that was the case also. Maybe it was Koll? Can't remember.

No, you're right, it was Brands. Of course, Brands also said he supported it two years to the day before he opposed it (during a TDR interview about them not attending National Duals).

 

Way to reinvent history. Brands' statement supporting duals was made after he chose not to compete in the old format held at UNI (Cedar Falls). At the time he made his case for non-participation in that specific competition, but indicated this was not his general position and that Iowa would certainly participate in subsequent years.

His statement two years later was in response to the NWCA-proposed format and the NCAA recognition of the duals as the only championship competition they were prepared to certify.

Don't try to obfuscate and confuse the issue.

I have the audio on my computer from the September 7, 2010 interview. He specifically stated he supported making the duals an NCAA Championship at that time.

[sockobuw 49]

I feel like you guys keep saying this year after year, but it remains a hole.

 

 

Are you dense? Gulibon was the top rated recruit in the nation at his weight, and Retherford is a Junior World Champion. It would be impossible to recruit better than that for those two spots. Cael couldn't fill every spot from Day 1 because there just isn't enough money to go around, so now he has filled 133 and 141 and you'll see the results when these guys get on the mat.

 

slight correction. fila cadet and fila junior are different. retherford won cadets.

[mvattivo 47]

The championship is decided currently by the tournament at the end of the season. So, PSU lost a dual meet the previous two years and then won the national championship. Who cares? Does losing a dual meet diminish their accomplishment ? Under the current format, PSU is going for their 3rd straight national championship in March. I wouldn't mind seeing a format where there is a national duals champion and a national tournament team champion, but, that isn't where we are right now.

 

I'm guessing Cael cares. I even think his wrestlers care and maybe PSU's fans care. I think you might be one of the few who might not care. But really I think you care too.

 

Let me clarify.....I was slightly disappointed last night. I wanted PSU to win and I think every match "counts". However, if PSU three peats in Des Moines, this loss isn't going to taint that championship in any way shape or form. Currently, the championship is decided with tournament format.

[BRGuy 37]

brands did support it and sayd he wanted the ncaa to pick up the national duals

 

i dug up some old quotes over the summer

 

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=14415

[silverback 49]

The championship is decided currently by the tournament at the end of the season. So, PSU lost a dual meet the previous two years and then won the national championship. Who cares? Does losing a dual meet diminish their accomplishment ? Under the current format, PSU is going for their 3rd straight national championship in March. I wouldn't mind seeing a format where there is a national duals champion and a national tournament team champion, but, that isn't where we are right now.

 

I'm guessing Cael cares. I even think his wrestlers care and maybe PSU's fans care. I think you might be one of the few who might not care. But really I think you care too.

 

Let me clarify.....I was slightly disappointed last night. I wanted PSU to win and I think every match "counts". However, if PSU three peats in Des Moines, this loss isn't going to taint that championship in any way shape or form. Currently, the championship is decided with tournament format.

 

I would agree with you about being dissapointed that PSU didn't win. But to insinuate that Cael or his wrestlers and fans didn't care is just wrong.

[carp 58]

SHP,

Why don't you read what I wrote? Here it is again with relevant wording underlined to help you out.

 

"His statement two years later was in response to the NWCA-proposed format and the NCAA recognition of the duals as the only championship competition they were prepared to certify.

 

Don't try to (further)obfuscate and confuse the issue.

[rstrong 75]

Iowa was simply the better team last night.

 

The fact is clear - Iowa beat Penn St straight up, and that gives them the right to say they are the better team. That's why we wrestle the duals.

 

I'm a Minn fan - and the Iowa win by 3rd criteria over Minn was tough to watch. I wanted Ness to have gotten back points, but he didn't. Iowa was the better team that day.

 

To say duals don't matter is just plain silly. They matter. Sour grapes...

[Old_Marine_Wrestler 245]

If duals didn't matter there would be no i-net traffic on this forum today.

[hawkfever 0]

This is just silly. An intelligent coach recruits and makes roster choices based on the current scoring system. Cael has done that better than any other coach. His team is again the favorite to win at NCAAs.

 

I doubt Gulibon gets redshirted under a dual championship scenario. I doubt Brands signs two 125ers to sit behind McD for a year when he has pressing needs at other weights. A dual system would change every team's approach towards filling out their roster.

 

The point is you build your team to win championships. That's the way it is.

 

Spot on.

 

When the system changes, Cael, et al, will adjust to the new rules. Until then, the championship TEAM is determined at Nationals in March. We'll see what happens. I don't see PSU as a lock -- the favorite, yes -- but not a lock.

 

What would be most interesting to me is if two champs were crowned and coaches had to balance the two competing needs. But so long as there is a single champ crowned, the NCAA decides how that champ is crowned. And PSU has been that team the last two years. These facts are undeniable.

So you think Cael is OK with losing Duals? LOL! I'm guessing if Cael had a choice, he'd pick being undefeated in Duals AND win the NCAA Championships. That would certainly be my preference and just about anyone on the planet I would imagine. Shows you're the best in both worlds, but it doesn't happen as often as one might think.

[scribe 1,835]

Brands wants to be the intergalactic champions.

[Flying-Tiger 617]

is it too late for penn state to accept an invitation to the national duals?

 

do they think they can beat the only undefeated team in the country oklahoma state

 

best team until proven otherwise is oklahoma state

penn state has some good individuals

 

"penn state has some good individuals"

 

Penn State just beat #6 Illinois 37-0 with just "some good individuals"

 

See the problem with being a troll is you end up looking foolish.

[BRGuy 37]

is it too late for penn state to accept an invitation to the national duals?

 

do they think they can beat the only undefeated team in the country oklahoma state

 

best team until proven otherwise is oklahoma state

penn state has some good individuals

 

"penn state has some good individuals"

 

Penn State just beat #6 Illinois 37-0 with just "some good individuals"

 

See the problem with being a troll is you end up looking foolish.

 

who is to say there isnt a huge gap bettween the top 5 and the 6 and down teams 5th ohio state pound illinois and penn states strength is at illinois strength iowa still has to wrestle illinois and oklahoma would likely pound illinois

 

point being penn state is a lot closer to iowa minnesota oklahoma state and ohio state as a team than some people want to admit

 

ruth is one of the best in college wrestling and taylor is top 10 that scored bonus like a top 5 is there another team with that many dominating wrestlers? no but there are other teams like iowa and event oklahoma state or minnesota with as few holes in their lineup. maybe if ruth and taylor could have dominated more against iowa they could have beat iowa but they will get to dominate gardner webb and south dakota state to get the points needed to beat iowa congrats to that

[Flying-Tiger 617]

So despite today's result and the fact that Penn State will most likely qualify all ten weigh classes and have seven all-americans, you are still going to try defend your statement? Well good luck with that.......

[BRGuy 37]

So despite today's result and the fact that Penn State will most likely qualify all ten weigh classes and have seven all-americans, you are going to defend your statement? Well good luck with that.......

 

penn state cant be invincible if they just lost to a team head to head

they may beat ohio state

maybe they would be able to beat oklahoma state and probably would win a close one with minnesota

but all of these teams could beat penn state and penn state is not that much better of them

 

we all know penn state has ruth and taylor who will stack up bonus and the reality is taylor will probably lose to dake but score more team points than dake and aalton who is only ranked 8th will probably score as many points as the 3rd place finisher even if he only finishes 8th so where will these points come from even though they are taking losses? aalton will score more points against a lock haven kid than vonohlen even thouhg vonohlen will beat aalton and taylor will do better against caldwell than dake would even though dake will control a match with taylor and beat him again

 

so yeah i stand by what i said i determine the best team by how they stack up to another team not by how they beat up on weak wrestlers on other teams not even in contention. how does penn state beat iowa and oklahoma state for a national title? they dont show up to the national duals and they have their wrestlers pound on chattanooga northern illinois princeton buffalo and drexel why dont they just beat up on iowa or oklahoma state one on one to win i thought wrestling was a mano y mano sport why hide a national championship in some convoluted team scoring mechanism against hundreds or random pairings or random teams and their athletes

 

when penn state lines up their team and dominates another team head to head and is the undisputed best team capable of beating any team one on one they will be the best team but right now the best team is debatable much like it often is in baseball basketball football soccer and every other sport and there is nothing wrong with that it doesnt mean penn state is not a great program

[dsauer22 4]

FT.....Brguy is a PSU hater and consistently has ridiculous arguments that make him look dumb. Not worth entertaining him.

 

I'm not sure who all of the people you say think PSU is so far ahead of Iowa, Minny and Okie St are...but most people seem to thing the team race is gonna be pretty tight.

[backdrft76 0]

I just wish he would punctuate more so I could read his posts easier.

[dsauer22 4]

I just wish he would punctuate more so I could read his posts easier.

He's been doing ok with paragraphs.....I'm sure he's working on the use of commas next.

[mvattivo 47]

So despite today's result and the fact that Penn State will most likely qualify all ten weigh classes and have seven all-americans, you are going to defend your statement? Well good luck with that.......

 

penn state cant be invincible if they just lost to a team head to head

they may beat ohio state

maybe they would be able to beat oklahoma state and probably would win a close one with minnesota

but all of these teams could beat penn state and penn state is not that much better of them

 

we all know penn state has ruth and taylor who will stack up bonus and the reality is taylor will probably lose to dake but score more team points than dake and aalton who is only ranked 8th will probably score as many points as the 3rd place finisher even if he only finishes 8th so where will these points come from even though they are taking losses? aalton will score more points against a lock haven kid than vonohlen even thouhg vonohlen will beat aalton and taylor will do better against caldwell than dake would even though dake will control a match with taylor and beat him again

 

so yeah i stand by what i said i determine the best team by how they stack up to another team not by how they beat up on weak wrestlers on other teams not even in contention. how does penn state beat iowa and oklahoma state for a national title? they dont show up to the national duals and they have their wrestlers pound on chattanooga northern illinois princeton buffalo and drexel why dont they just beat up on iowa or oklahoma state one on one to win i thought wrestling was a mano y mano sport why hide a national championship in some convoluted team scoring mechanism against hundreds or random pairings or random teams and their athletes

 

when penn state lines up their team and dominates another team head to head and is the undisputed best team capable of beating any team one on one they will be the best team but right now the best team is debatable much like it often is in baseball basketball football soccer and every other sport and there is nothing wrong with that it doesnt mean penn state is not a great program

 

Hey BRGuy, how about this. You go ahead and grab a pen and mark an asterisk beside the national champions that yo don't think deserve it. Heck, go ahead and write down who you think the national champion is. You can even pull the list out over and over again and smile about the results you have come up with.

 

The fact is, no one cares who you think the National Champion is. The rest of the wrestling world will go by what is established, which is the NCAA tournament in March. The fact is that at that tournament, each team has an equal chance to score bonus points against these "weak" opponents that you point out. So, go ahead and keep your own list, but, I'll go ahead and enjoy my time in Des Moines, where they will crown this year's and individual and team National Champions.

[BRGuy 37]

each team has an equal chance to score points against the weak opponenets is laughable

 

only ed ruth and patrick martinez got to dominate libertys entry at 184

 

yeah reader and lewnes had the same chance to deck a kid in 24 seconds as ed ruth did ha ha

 

some guys get a top 20 guy first and second round and some people get a top 50 guy that got in due to an upset at a qualifer who ends up getting bounced after to losses

 

i think everyone can admit that the opportunities are not the same as you say and the only way for them to be the same is to take a team on one on one

 

some people are scared to take a team on and some fans think wrestlers will decide an ncaa title isnt worth wrestling hard for but we all should agree that it is not an equal opportuntiy

[WRfan1 152]

i would oppose duals too if i kept taking losses each year even though i had what everyone was calling unbeatable teams in the start of the season

 

2011 lost to iowa at home in a head to head wins nationals in a mashed up field of teams

2012 lost to minnesota at home in a head to head wins nationals in a mashed up field of teams

2013 lost to iowa but is favorite in a head to head wins nationals in a mashed up field of teams

 

no wonder cael doesnt want things to change

 

it could probably be worse if he wrestled tough duals outside of the big 10

 

duals dont draw fans ha ha this dual probably sold more tickets than we available to the public for desmoine

 

And what would your opinion be if Iowa was able to generate the top end guys the same way Penn State has been able to? Never mind, I think I know.

 

Make this argument when the shoe is on the other foot, and maybe your argument will be taken seriously.

[Flying-Tiger 617]

Excellent point and one worth considering. Where were all these cries to change the system prior to Penn State making their run? It was a perfectly fine system when Iowa and Oklahoma State were winning championships but now that a team outside the good'ol'boy network is winning, there's something wrong with it and we need to change immediately.

[LemonPie 1,368]

If they want to make duals the criteria for a national championship, then they at least need to ditch the weight certification rules to make it interesting.

[PA-Fan 0]

Wow. BRGuy, this may be one of the most ridiculous strings of comments I've seen from anyone on a topic.

 

You are speaking as if Iowa proved that, even if the National Champion were decided in a dual format, then they would certainly win the title now that they have beaten Penn State in a very tight dual. That is just silly. Yes, they won the dual. If they wrestled again, possibly not in Carver, who is to say that one (or more) of those razor-thin swing matches doesn't go the other way? Or Conoway doesn't get pinned? Or Ruth gets a fall? Or QW gets a major? etc..etc..etc..

 

The fact is that in a dual format Iowa matches up very well with PSU, and they are quite close. Nobody argues this...but you take it to the complete other extreme and seem to think that now the are just better - always- period. That is nonsense.

 

Other than that, you are just coming off so unbelievably ridiculous and bitter that it borders on insanity. For example, PSU had more opportunity to score bonus points than other teams the last two years at Nationals? Uhh, ok? Are you insinuating that the draw was somehow rigged? You earn your seeding throughout the season, individually. It has nothing to do with which team you are wrestling for. The seedings are determined, and pigtail matches are random. There is nothing biased or unfair about it, stop being ridiculous.

 

The main point to shut down your nonsense is so simple. Duals are NOT how the National Champion is crowned, so let it go. If you are going to whine and complain about PSU having an unfair advantage, and they are not truely the best team in the Nation (even though they have won 2 in a row), etc, etc...you better go re-write the history books and investigate all the championships of Iowa/Okie St over the past 50 years.

 

To sum up in a few words - JUST STOP IT.

[ocho 0]

I think the cry for change has come now because the NCAA was finally willing to listen to the proposal. Coaches and the NWCA have been trying to get changes made for about 10 years.