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BRGuy

i would oppose duals too if i kept taking losses

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The NWCA might have been pushing for this change but don't include the coaches. The NWCA once was an mouthpeice for the coaches, now they come up with an agenda and sell it to the coaches and even get together with the NCAA and dictate to the coaches.

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I think Cael and Tom both agreed that they did not support NWCA push to determine team champion through a dual format. Supposedly if it became a NCAA sanctioned national dual meet tourney ESPN was going to televise it live just like they currently do the NCAAs. Maybe Cael and Tom thought it might cost them home duals which draw very well in State College and Iowa City? Maybe the current format of having a team champion at the individual championships enhances spectator appeal? Maybe the fact that the NWCA National Duals have been going on for a number of years and has not become a big money maker makes one take pause? I am intrigued by the idea of a true national dual meet final four with live television on ESPN but I certainly respect two great coaches right to their opinions.

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So despite today's result and the fact that Penn State will most likely qualify all ten weigh classes and have seven all-americans, you are going to defend your statement? Well good luck with that.......

 

penn state cant be invincible if they just lost to a team head to head

they may beat ohio state

maybe they would be able to beat oklahoma state and probably would win a close one with minnesota

but all of these teams could beat penn state and penn state is not that much better of them

 

we all know penn state has ruth and taylor who will stack up bonus and the reality is taylor will probably lose to dake but score more team points than dake and aalton who is only ranked 8th will probably score as many points as the 3rd place finisher even if he only finishes 8th so where will these points come from even though they are taking losses? aalton will score more points against a lock haven kid than vonohlen even thouhg vonohlen will beat aalton and taylor will do better against caldwell than dake would even though dake will control a match with taylor and beat him again

 

so yeah i stand by what i said i determine the best team by how they stack up to another team not by how they beat up on weak wrestlers on other teams not even in contention. how does penn state beat iowa and oklahoma state for a national title? they dont show up to the national duals and they have their wrestlers pound on chattanooga northern illinois princeton buffalo and drexel why dont they just beat up on iowa or oklahoma state one on one to win i thought wrestling was a mano y mano sport why hide a national championship in some convoluted team scoring mechanism against hundreds or random pairings or random teams and their athletes

 

when penn state lines up their team and dominates another team head to head and is the undisputed best team capable of beating any team one on one they will be the best team but right now the best team is debatable much like it often is in baseball basketball football soccer and every other sport and there is nothing wrong with that it doesnt mean penn state is not a great program

 

BRGuy --

 

So your premise is that Penn State isn’t worthy to be called National Champs this year if they win the NCAA Championships because they lost a dual. According to you, that loss proves they weren’t the best team and they are only winning NCAA because they have good individuals and not a good team and their individuals are just beating up on lesser opponents in the NCAA tourney and scoring more points.

 

OK, let’s run with that premise using some team like…………………. Iowa.

 

Iowa has won 23 NCAA titles. In 12 of those years, they had a dual loss (or multiple dual losses) during the year. In 4 additional championship years they had a tie in a dual. So, given your premise, we can say that in 16 of their 23 title years, Iowa didn’t deserve to be called National Champs as they didn’t win in the important head-to-head format that really proves who is the better team. In one championship year they had 3 dual losses and another year they had 4 dual losses so many teams were better than them in those years. But Iowa must have won because they had a few outstanding individuals that beat up on lesser opponents in the NCAA tourney to score more points than the teams that had proven they were better than Iowa head-to-head. So really Iowa really only deserves to have 7 NCAA titles (or maybe 11) not 23 according to you.

 

And, to go further with the NCAA points thing, in 83, 86 and 97, Iowa set NCAA team scoring records. In each of those years, Iowa suffered a dual loss. That makes it painfully obvious, according to you, that Iowa wasn’t the best team but was really taking advantage of lesser opponents in the NCAA tourney to score more points than the teams that had proven they were better than Iowa in a head-to-head matchup.

 

So, since you stand by what you said to “determine the best team by how they stack up to another team not by how they beat up on weak wrestlers on other teams not even in contention”, then we need to take away at least 12 of Iowa’s 23 NCAA titles since they lost duals during the year and possibly another 4 titles since they had ties during the year and the “best” team might not have been Iowa.

 

I’m glad you cleared that up for all of us………

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So despite today's result and the fact that Penn State will most likely qualify all ten weigh classes and have seven all-americans, you are going to defend your statement? Well good luck with that.......

 

penn state cant be invincible if they just lost to a team head to head

they may beat ohio state

maybe they would be able to beat oklahoma state and probably would win a close one with minnesota

but all of these teams could beat penn state and penn state is not that much better of them

 

we all know penn state has ruth and taylor who will stack up bonus and the reality is taylor will probably lose to dake but score more team points than dake and aalton who is only ranked 8th will probably score as many points as the 3rd place finisher even if he only finishes 8th so where will these points come from even though they are taking losses? aalton will score more points against a lock haven kid than vonohlen even thouhg vonohlen will beat aalton and taylor will do better against caldwell than dake would even though dake will control a match with taylor and beat him again

 

so yeah i stand by what i said i determine the best team by how they stack up to another team not by how they beat up on weak wrestlers on other teams not even in contention. how does penn state beat iowa and oklahoma state for a national title? they dont show up to the national duals and they have their wrestlers pound on chattanooga northern illinois princeton buffalo and drexel why dont they just beat up on iowa or oklahoma state one on one to win i thought wrestling was a mano y mano sport why hide a national championship in some convoluted team scoring mechanism against hundreds or random pairings or random teams and their athletes

 

when penn state lines up their team and dominates another team head to head and is the undisputed best team capable of beating any team one on one they will be the best team but right now the best team is debatable much like it often is in baseball basketball football soccer and every other sport and there is nothing wrong with that it doesnt mean penn state is not a great program

 

BRGuy --

 

So your premise is that Penn State isn’t worthy to be called National Champs this year if they win the NCAA Championships because they lost a dual. According to you, that loss proves they weren’t the best team and they are only winning NCAA because they have good individuals and not a good team and their individuals are just beating up on lesser opponents in the NCAA tourney and scoring more points.

 

OK, let’s run with that premise using some team like…………………. Iowa.

 

Iowa has won 23 NCAA titles. In 12 of those years, they had a dual loss (or multiple dual losses) during the year. In 4 additional championship years they had a tie in a dual. So, given your premise, we can say that in 16 of their 23 title years, Iowa didn’t deserve to be called National Champs as they didn’t win in the important head-to-head format that really proves who is the better team. In one championship year they had 3 dual losses and another year they had 4 dual losses so many teams were better than them in those years. But Iowa must have won because they had a few outstanding individuals that beat up on lesser opponents in the NCAA tourney to score more points than the teams that had proven they were better than Iowa head-to-head. So really Iowa really only deserves to have 7 NCAA titles (or maybe 11) not 23 according to you.

 

And, to go further with the NCAA points thing, in 83, 86 and 97, Iowa set NCAA team scoring records. In each of those years, Iowa suffered a dual loss. That makes it painfully obvious, according to you, that Iowa wasn’t the best team but was really taking advantage of lesser opponents in the NCAA tourney to score more points than the teams that had proven they were better than Iowa in a head-to-head matchup.

 

So, since you stand by what you said to “determine the best team by how they stack up to another team not by how they beat up on weak wrestlers on other teams not even in contention”, then we need to take away at least 12 of Iowa’s 23 NCAA titles since they lost duals during the year and possibly another 4 titles since they had ties during the year and the “best” team might not have been Iowa.

 

I’m glad you cleared that up for all of us………

Nice post. I've never heard anyone claim Iowa wasn't the "real" national champs during the years they had one or more dual losses - nor should they.

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sb dude you nailed it

 

i still believe penn state would make a run at the title this year but there is no doubt an iowa or oklahoma stat dual would be a toss up and minnesota could make things exciting too and i think last year penn state would have avenged the loss to minnesota but until they avenge a loss they are not the best team.

 

i would have loved if iowa would have been judged on dual performance they had the best dual crowds and it would have provided a motivation for other schools to have fans at their home events to it would have meant a lot more to cal poly illinois oklahoma state nebraksa iowa state minnesota and all the other schools that have to have stolen a dual from the best program it would have made the fans excited about the win but these wins are hallow just as iowa is not going on and on about how they are going to win the natinoals after beating penn state because they know this win isnt how penn state will be judged

 

duals will bring more excitement to a school when the dual shows how they may perform during nationals and it is a blatant lie to say small school teams cant compete in duals when bloomsburg and edinboro are dual ranked and we have had teams like cal poly cal bakersfield penn central michigan lock haven boise state and others

 

for the penn state 98 may have been a national champion team with a win over iowa

 

think about the years like when iowa was coming off a string of nationals titles and they get nocked off by a team like michigan it is easy to say though it hurts it doesnt matter but what if it did then michigan fans would be going crazy in 06 central michigan and mizzou were ranked higher than iowa in the dual polls and it would have been amazing for their programs if they had beat iowa in the national tournament just like it is huge to beat michigan in football or duke in basketball it doesnt matter if they have a down team it is the name that is significant but placing higher then them at nationals doesnt mean too much and the reality is they will always be finishing high because the oklahoma state penn state minnesota iowas of the world land so many cant misses that it doesnt hit them hard when a few wash out flunk out quit or whatever when it happens it may take away a title but they are only moved to top 5 which is insane when the team may not be top 10 when they go head to head with other teams just as arizona state was only a top team because two guys stood on top of the podium and another sneeks 8th. that is not a good team it was a joke just like nc state was not good when caldwell made them respectable caldwell and jenkins and robles should have been on top of the podium and been labeled the greatest but their team should never have been recognized for anything

 

it is not penn state bashing it is tournament bashing and i have always thought it was an idiotic concept to win a title that way but penn states taylor and ruth score so many points that it just makes it that much more obvious

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we talk about the gable dynasty but he basically averaged a loss a year which means he would have always challenged for a title but other teams may have pulled an upset from time to time and maybe some other programs would have had some recognition and get some fans so iowa wasnt the only gym with fans

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Tournaments have always been considered a better way to measure the best team. A dual is limited to 10 blocks of points that go one way or the other with the value of a 24 - 10 match major decision win being the same as a 9-1 win or a 4-3 match decision being the same as an 8-1 win. A tournament allows each and every team to score multiple points from each one of the 10 weight classes allowing the value of a quality loser to earn points despite a loss.

 

This season Illinois loses to Nebraska 18 - 15 while beating Maryland 31-6. Maryland however beats Nebraska 18 - 17.

 

I think duals are great but the consistency is lacking. With the Penn St. vs Iowa dual the result of the match would have Penn State winning the dual IF any of the three closest matches in the dual at 125, 157, or 174 flipped to PSU as this would have resulted in a draw going to criteria where Penn State would have won the criteria on match points since the Ramos Pin and the Taylor TF ruled each other out.

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Youins like to compare it to other sports like track and swimming but those don't have you scoring points each round based on individual competitions it is how the teams stackes up head to head. Can you imagine if each race was a head to head match with teams scoring points for each time their runner advanced they would compound points like crazy who would have a better track gteam the jamacians or the kenyans we all know they each would have a lot of top point scorers but the reality is that they have top individuals but don't have a top all around track program

 

the way we add points round after round is so ubsurd it would be one thing if we only gave points based on placement maybe a few for the round of 12 but wach round makes it so placement has little impact on pointsscored fine just say you only care about having top individuals and that is what you call a best team and don't hide behind compounding points from early rounds to win championships by half a point

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Someone used the scenerio that team A beat team B, team A lost to team C, but team C beat team B and used this as a reason not tu have duals decide a national championship. Have you ever watched any team sports? This scenerio happens all the time. The Ravens lost several times this year, does that mean they aren't the best team? Tournaments aren't set up to find out who has the "Best Team" it is set up to determine a champion. The "best team" doesn't always win a championship no matter the sport. So again it is silly to use that as a determinant to oppose duals. If anything that is what makes them more exciting.

 

The same scenerios are found during individual match ups. How often does the "best" person at their weight win the championship? Wrestling is all about match ups and styles and how one wrestler's style clashes with anothers. Again this is what makes our sport great.

 

I am for Duals deciding our national champion. Yes, the current tournament is great, from a team scoring perspective, for the first day or two but the champion is sometimes decided by the morning of the third day. How does that create team excitement for the last day? In a dual anything can happen. One upset is huge and can drastically change things. Having an inferior opponent avoid the major to save a team point. Getting that last second takedown to get a major. All of these things are exciting and have a much greater impact during one dual meet than they do during an entire individual tournament. This would also create two major wrestling events for wrestling and increase coverage. I feel a dual format creates a greater opportunity to build off of our current fan base. I believe this because a greater ammount of teams have a chance to win a dual meet title than they do an individual title IMO. That excitement around those programs I feel would increase a fanbase that would be favorable for a casual wrestling fan to follow. A dual meet is easier to follow and become interested in as opposed to an individual tournament IMO.

 

I understand people's viewpoint that wouldn't like to see the current format change, cuz yes it has worked. I just think the risk of change has a large potential for progressing our great sport. That is my opinion on the subject, but as a wrestling fan I will support whatever format is in place.

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..you're putting too much emphasis on what you would like to happen and what has/will happen.

 

..duals aren't well attended outside the top 10 schools on any type of regularity.

 

..the argument to switch to duals is "if they're sponsored by the NCAA so people will be excited about this and new fans will love it." This is not reality. Most Americans sport fans couldn't care less for wrestling while being enamored with NASCAR, MLB, NCAA basketball, NHL, and whatever else is popular.

 

.. It's just not a politically correct kind of sport.

 

..Wrestling is barely on the radar in the American sports scene.

 

..has any of the nationally syndicated sports shows even talked about wrestling this year? Even with the Dake vs Taylor/ the world?

 

..Where's ESPN?

 

..what about McDonough's quest for 3? Kilgore, Ruth, Wright, Z., Bradley, Nelson, Steiber?

 

..switching to a dual format wouldn't even get Dake an article. He's just a "face in the crowd".

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ESPN has agreed to cover the national duals if they are santioned under the NCAA as a championship. That is where ESPN is. It would create two wrestling events that have national media attention. This increased media attention could potentially put wrestling on the radar of american sports(on TV more, more people have opportunity to watch it)and maybe even cause nationally syndicated sports shows to discuss wrestling occasionally(both Ness and Robles have been discussed several times on ESPN).

 

Recently Tony Ramos pin at Penn State was chosen as picture of the day on Sports Illustrated's(a national media outlet) http://extramustard.si.com/2013/02/02/p ... the-day-2/ . The super-hyped DUAL of IAvsPS was able to create the type of buzz to garner national media attention. Watching an individual match a casual fan has 7 minutes to get invested and then the next match is on and the cycle reboots. With a dual they have two hours to get attached for one team or the other. I have had non wrestling fans watch duals with me and by the end they are cheering one team to victory without even realizing it.

 

Yes I admit that there is a chance the dual format would fail, but we will never know if we don't look to make changes. I feel so many people are quick to admit defeat and settle with the idea that wrestling can't progress. I am not saying this change HAS to occur I just feel that it needs to be investigated(and it is by NWCA, coaches adn NCAA) and viewed with an open mind. Coaches on both side of the proposal need to set their personal agenda aside and look out for the best interest of wrestling. If a dual format ends up not being it then we as a wrestling community need to keep looking.

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